x-signals

[Guest guest]

I have been reading Manaka's chasing the Dragon's Tail recently. He

postulates an understanding of the acupuncture paradigm with reference

to systems and information theory of modern science. rendering qi as

information, the jing luo are seen as conduits for this organizational

data. The jing luo can be affected with stimuli and then impact the

other biological systems we are familiar with, such as neuroendocrine,

in order to restore dynamic equilibrium. this makes perfect sense to me

as acupuncture directly affects the jing luo through mechanical

contact. this has led me to ponder how or if herbs also affect this

system. Herbs are internally ingested and thus must enter the body via

the known digestive processes. The body thus absorbs a complex mixture

of biochemicals into the bloodstream. Now, according to information

theory, these biochemicals can also be thought of as information. and

the biochemicals systems of the body are also information as well. the

question is whether the herbs merely exert biochemical effects through

standard pharmacodynamics or somehow directly affect the jing luo system

to restore harmony. Or perhaps pharmacodynamics is merely the gross

correlate of changes in the subtle information system, i.e. the effect

we can measure from changes caused therein. this would then apply to

drugs as well as herbs, as the science of pharmacology depends on an

acceptance of theories about molecular interaction that cannot be

actually seen. so perhaps the whole of pharmacology is actually a

science of effects rather than causes. Yet I still believe the

information in the herbs is bound up with their constituents, not

separate therefrom. So is it that the sum of the constituents forms a

whole that is received by the body as some form of resonant information

that is transmitted through the system via the internal jing luo

pathways, leading to biochemical changes, etc. that would certainly

explain observed actions of formula that are not explainable merely by

pharmacology. Such the sensation of liver qi spreading or shen rooting

in the heart or how herbs can affect pain largely in one part of the

body.

 

Now those of you who are familiar with my biases know that I have

pointed out numerous times that all chinese source material, from

classical to modern research, relies on rather large doses of herbs.

But if the effect is on the jing luo system rather than merely

pharmacology, why would this be so? I know some of you will argue that

you have seen profound changes with subtle doses of herbs, but this is

not my point. My point is that the medical literature is fairly

uniform on this subject of dosage. I have also seen countless times

that an increase in dosage form patent level to decoction level can make

all the difference in treatment efficacy. working with the concept of

information theory, I propose that large dosages may be necessary

especially in the early stages of treating organic disease in order to

overcome the signal to noise ratio. that those who are seriously ill

with organic structural changes may have so much noise in their systems,

only a very strong signal (i.e. high dose) can affect the jing luo

information conduits.

 

--

 

Chinese Herbs

 

VOICE: (858) 946-0070

FAX: (858) 946 0067

[Guest guest]

On Saturday, July 7, 2001, at 07:48 PM,

 

I have been reading Manaka's chasing the Dragon's Tail recently. He

postulates an understanding of the acupuncture paradigm with reference

to systems and information theory of modern science. rendering qi as

information, the jing luo are seen as conduits for this organizational

data. The jing luo can be affected with stimuli and then impact the

other biological systems we are familiar with, such as neuroendocrine,

in order to restore dynamic equilibrium. this makes perfect sense to me

as acupuncture directly affects the jing luo through mechanical

contact.

 

(Z'ev) I think Dr. Manaka had developed the best modern explanation of

qi, channels and xue/holes (points) of anyone in the modern era. It was

a great inspiration to take a seminar in San Francisco with him some

fifteen years ago. One of the best learning experiences I ever had.

 

this has led me to ponder how or if herbs also affect this

system. Herbs are internally ingested and thus must enter the body via

the known digestive processes. The body thus absorbs a complex mixture

of biochemicals into the bloodstream. Now, according to information

theory, these biochemicals can also be thought of as information. and

the biochemicals systems of the body are also information as well. the

question is whether the herbs merely exert biochemical effects through

standard pharmacodynamics or somehow directly affect the jing luo system

to restore harmony. Or perhaps pharmacodynamics is merely the gross

correlate of changes in the subtle information system, i.e. the effect

we can measure from changes caused therein. this would then apply to

drugs as well as herbs, as the science of pharmacology depends on an

acceptance of theories about molecular interaction that cannot be

actually seen. so perhaps the whole of pharmacology is actually a

science of effects rather than causes. Yet I still believe the

information in the herbs is bound up with their constituents, not

separate therefrom. So is it that the sum of the constituents forms a

whole that is received by the body as some form of resonant information

that is transmitted through the system via the internal jing luo

pathways, leading to biochemical changes, etc. that would certainly

explain observed actions of formula that are not explainable merely by

pharmacology. Such the sensation of liver qi spreading or shen rooting

in the heart or how herbs can affect pain largely in one part of the

body.

 

I think you are on to something here, Todd. This is how I would picture

the influence of medicinals on channels, giving informational direction

to the channels.

 

Now those of you who are familiar with my biases know that I have

pointed out numerous times that all chinese source material, from

classical to modern research, relies on rather large doses of herbs.

But if the effect is on the jing luo system rather than merely

pharmacology, why would this be so? I know some of you will argue that

you have seen profound changes with subtle doses of herbs, but this is

not my point. My point is that the medical literature is fairly

uniform on this subject of dosage. I have also seen countless times

that an increase in dosage form patent level to decoction level can make

all the difference in treatment efficacy. working with the concept of

information theory, I propose that large dosages may be necessary

especially in the early stages of treating organic disease in order to

overcome the signal to noise ratio. that those who are seriously ill

with organic structural changes may have so much noise in their systems,

only a very strong signal (i.e. high dose) can affect the jing luo

information conduits.

 

(Z'ev) I think here we have to consider qualities of medicinals as well

as quantities, preparation methods (as you pointed out about the potency

of water/alcohol extracts), and different body types. I have been

reading notes on Kanpo by Shinjiro Kanazawa, a former PCOM student, and

it is probably the best thing I've read on Kanpo yet (I hope he will

publish this work). He points out that the dosages of the classical

prescriptions use smaller doses than the Chinese, and that the

prescriptions are rarely modified, but the clinical results are

excellant. In fact, they are part and parcel of the healthcare delivery

system of modern Japan. They give decoctions in the dosage of 1/2

Japanese teacup twice a day, a very small dosage.

 

Could this be a different sensitivity of Japanese people to medicinals?

Note also the much milder stimulus of Japanese acupuncture methods. Do

they experience qi, health and disease differently than the Chinese?

 

Just thinking out loud. This is all very interesting to me.

 

 

[Guest guest]

, <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

I have been

> reading notes on Kanpo by Shinjiro Kanazawa, a former PCOM student, and

> it is probably the best thing I've read on Kanpo yet (I hope he will

> publish this work). He points out that the dosages of the classical

> prescriptions use smaller doses than the Chinese, and that the

> prescriptions are rarely modified, but the clinical results are

> excellant. In fact, they are part and parcel of the healthcare delivery

> system of modern Japan. They give decoctions in the dosage of 1/2

> Japanese teacup twice a day, a very small dosage.

 

I hear this all the time but I still haven't seen any good case studies

that support this opinion in the treatment of diagnosed western

diseases. I will share some recent successes and would like to hear

about others experiences. If you have used tinctures or kanpo low dose

rx to treat serious conditions, lets see some cases.

 

Bipolar disorder (dx by psychiatrist) - lv constraint, blood stasis, qi

xu, phlegm misting the mind; pt. had long history of lithium, welbutrin

and hormones. Was either severely depressed or hypomanic every day for

ten years unless heavily medicated; now has gone seven weeks drug free

with no episodes. Last 4 weeks also received no acupuncture either.

I'm not asking for advice so I'm only posting dx and rx; no time to

give s/s.

 

Rx- (in grams per day of bulk) chai hu shu gan wan jia wei

 

chai hu 6

xiang fu 6

zhi shi 6

chen pi 6

chuan xiong 6

bai shao 6

gan cao 6

yu jin 7.5

he huan pi 9

dang gui 6

huang qi 9

fu ling 7.5

bai zhu 10

 

will post cases on severe pain fom injury, IBS and chronic rectal

bleeding over the next week.

 

[Guest guest]

I propose that large dosages may be necessary

> especially in the early stages of treating organic disease in order to

> overcome the signal to noise ratio. that those who are seriously ill

> with organic structural changes may have so much noise in their systems,

> only a very strong signal (i.e. high dose) can affect the jing luo

> information conduits.

>

 

That is one of the most fascinating ways of looking at the whole shebang

I've seen in a while.

 

Mark Reese

[Guest guest]

(Z'ev) I think here we have to consider qualities of medicinals as well as quantities, preparation methods (as you pointed out about the potency of water/alcohol extracts), and different body types. I have been reading notes on Kanpo by Shinjiro Kanazawa, a former PCOM student, and it is probably the best thing I've read on Kanpo yet (I hope he will publish this work). He points out that the dosages of the classical prescriptions use smaller doses than the Chinese, and that the prescriptions are rarely modified, but the clinical results are excellant. In fact, they are part and parcel of the healthcare delivery system of modern Japan. They give decoctions in the dosage of 1/2 Japanese teacup twice a day, a very small dosage. Could this be a different sensitivity of Japanese people to medicinals? Note also the much milder stimulus of Japanese acupuncture methods. Do they experience qi, health and disease differently than the Chinese?

Z'ev, Subhuti (and others who I cannot remember at this time) have pointed out that Kanpo practitioners using the lower doses do not expect the results to be as rapid as those using the more Chinese doses. This certainly holds true with my patient population, many of whom have used appropriately prescribed low dose formulas for long periods of time only to receive slow improvement, but who quickly respond to the same formula prescribed by me in a larger dose format.

 

Mark Reese

[Guest guest]

, " Mark Reese " <tcm2@e...> wrote:

 

>

> Z'ev, Subhuti (and others who I cannot remember at this time) have pointed

out that Kanpo practitioners using the lower doses do not expect the results to

be as rapid as those using the more Chinese doses. This certainly holds true

with my patient population, many of whom have used appropriately prescribed low

dose formulas for long periods of time only to receive slow improvement, but who

quickly respond to the same formula prescribed by me in a larger dose format.

 

I also think the Japanese mainly use kanpo for management of chronic

illness and the majority of MD's still prescribe drugs to control

symptoms at the same time as giving herbs. the japanese also have a

fairly low incidence of many of the diseases patients come to us for in

the US, due to diet and lifestyle. Thus, many chronic diseases that

require immediate symptom relief are just not seen in japan very much,

like IBS, abnormal uterine bleeding due to fibroids or hormonal

imbalances, perimenopausal complaints, autoimmune diseases, diabetic

complications, etc. the superb health of the modern japanese makes

comparisons between kanpo and TCM not entirely valid in my mind. Plus

it is my understanding that low dose kanpo is a modern aberration and

not reflective of japanese tradition. A lot of kanpo seems to be used

for hepatitis and cancer patients, where the results expected are

necessarily slow.

 

 

[Guest guest]

, @i... wrote:

>> I totally agree with the emergence idea. It is what I was trying

to convey. My question is whether the whole " emerges " from the

synergy of the parts or is it something completely separate?

 

Jim: It's actually sometimes called a " circular causality. " It's a

hierarchical level whose function cannot be predicted from the

properties of the elements alone of the lower, constituent level.

 

 

 

>> (Jim) Today, I typically give people 1.5 gm/TID doses of a formula

(using concentrates) containing up to 35 herbs with very good results.

: could you share some cases?

 

Jim: A good example is my Headache/Migraine Formula containing about

33 herbs, modified and expanded from the classical Chinese formula

Hua T'o Nao Tong Shen Fang—Paeonia, Angelica, Ligusticum,

Chrysanthemum, Cassia, Tribulus, Rehmannia, Bupleurum, Prunus,

Corydalis, Ophiopogon, Aurantium, Gastrodia, Gypsum, Magnolia,

Notopterygium, Platycodon, Siler, Pinellia, Licorice, Asarum,

Schizonepeta, Viticus, Zanthoxylum, Poria, Citrus, Atractylodes,

Mentha, Aurantium, Licorice, Silkworm, Gentiana, Prunellia.

 

The standard maintainence dose (using concentrates) is 750 gm/TID;

during an episode the dose can be raised to 3.0 gm (even more).

Usually it's taken with my immune support formula, which is based on

Tuo Li Xiao Du Yin (compare QualiHerb catalog #20601), and contains

about 23 herbs itself (in concentrate), at 750 mg/TID. The formulas

are given in conjunction with an acupuncture treatment each week.

 

These herbal formulas were based on my teacher's (Korean) formulary

and then designed and tested on myself, patients, and my office

associate using pulse diagnosis to guide its development.

 

Where I think these are different from the general TCM formulas is

that Korean formulas are more designed to move the energy around as

in 5-Phases, not simply add or subtract (large) amounts of substances

as do the zang-fu practitioners. Much in keeping with Birch and

Friedman's insights regarding 5-Phases vs Zang-fu (p. 395) in their

appendix article to Manaka's " Chasing the Dragon's Tail. "

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

Silk Road Acupuncture Center

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