Guest guest Posted July 9, 2001 Report Share Posted July 9, 2001 Dear Group: Does anyone have experience with possible reactions or toxicity with Shan Dou Gen and/or She Gan? I gave them to someone today, just one cup I brewed at home, using about 10 grams of each in 3 cups of water cooked down to one cup. An hour later, she was vomiting and dizzy and the vomiting lasted all day. She had been coming down with something before I gave it to her, with occipital headache, sore throat, red tongue, redder tip, and feeling very hot at the time I gave it. My doctor/teachers at school said Shan Dou Gen can do that, in sensitive patients, but there is no real toxicity, and she should be fine in 1/2 a day. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2001 Report Share Posted July 9, 2001 , juliej8@a... wrote: > Dear Group: > > Does anyone have experience with possible reactions or toxicity with Shan Dou > Gen and/or She Gan? shan dou gen is slightly toxic, though Bensky does not say so. I learned this from subhuti Dharmananda. It contains oxymatrine which causes the effects you described. the dose you used was higher than Bensky's upper range (9g) and my teachers usually never used more than 6 g per day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2001 Report Share Posted July 10, 2001 Julie They are both bitter and cold, there fore hard on the spleen/stomach and that is what I feel may have contributed to the vomitting. I am curious though as to why you just chose those 2 herbs. I use she gan and ma bo quite a bit for acute type sore throat things as assistant herbs in a bigger formula eg yin qiao san, Bensky says maximum of 1.5 qian, ie 4.5 grams for she gan, you were double that !! Its possible you may need to repair the spleen and stomach a bit . Don't be afraid to add gan cao and sheng jiang to those formulas where you want to use bitter and cold herbs , to protect the stomach. Heiko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2001 Report Share Posted July 14, 2001 She Gan can be very toxic to some individuals in doses where it might be 25 % of the formula (I assume that could be 9 grams). My girlfriend once used a formula for a sore throat with concentrates of 4 herbs, one being She Gan and experienced dizziness, nauseousness and flu like symptoms for a good number of hours. Luckily I wasn't the perscriber. > > > > Re: Shan Dou Gen/She Gan >Tue, 10 Jul 2001 04:55:43 -0000 > >, juliej8@a... wrote: > > Dear Group: > > > > Does anyone have experience with possible reactions or toxicity with >Shan Dou > > Gen and/or She Gan? > >shan dou gen is slightly toxic, though Bensky does not say so. I >learned this from subhuti Dharmananda. It contains oxymatrine which >causes the effects you described. the dose you used was higher than >Bensky's upper range (9g) and my teachers usually never used more than >6 g per day. > >Todd > > _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2001 Report Share Posted July 14, 2001 Rod, Do you have any specific evidence that your g-friend's reaction was specifically to the she gan in the formula? I use she gan in a cold/flu treatment formula that I've prescribed hundreds of times and have not seen any adverse reactions to its short-term use. Stephen Rod Le Blanc [rodleblancdtcm] Saturday, July 14, 2001 12:38 AM Re: Re: Shan Dou Gen/She Gan She Gan can be very toxic to some individuals in doses where it might be 25 % of the formula (I assume that could be 9 grams). My girlfriend once used a formula for a sore throat with concentrates of 4 herbs, one being She Gan and experienced dizziness, nauseousness and flu like symptoms for a good number of hours. Luckily I wasn't the perscriber. > > > > Re: Shan Dou Gen/She Gan >Tue, 10 Jul 2001 04:55:43 -0000 > >, juliej8@a... wrote: > > Dear Group: > > > > Does anyone have experience with possible reactions or toxicity with >Shan Dou > > Gen and/or She Gan? > >shan dou gen is slightly toxic, though Bensky does not say so. I >learned this from subhuti Dharmananda. It contains oxymatrine which >causes the effects you described. the dose you used was higher than >Bensky's upper range (9g) and my teachers usually never used more than >6 g per day. > >Todd > > _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2001 Report Share Posted July 15, 2001 Stephen Specific evidence would be difficult to come by. Only that the first dose produced mild nauseous and dizziness with some relieve after time. But the second dose later in the day created very strong dizziness and a very nauseous effect with vomit. My suspicion of it being the cause was that I wouldn't have used such a high dose of She Gan knowing her stomach and She Gan's bitter/cold nature. Then again she also said she took an extra amount of the decoction as well. > " Stephen Morrissey " <stephen > >Do you have any specific evidence that your g-friend's reaction was >specifically to the she gan in the formula? I use she gan in a cold/flu >treatment formula that I've prescribed hundreds of times and have not seen >any adverse reactions to its short-term use. > >Stephen > > >Rod Le Blanc [rodleblancdtcm] >Saturday, July 14, 2001 12:38 AM > >Re: Re: Shan Dou Gen/She Gan > >She Gan can be very toxic to some individuals in doses where it might be 25 >% of the formula (I assume that could be 9 grams). My girlfriend once used >a >formula for a sore throat with concentrates of 4 herbs, one being She Gan >and experienced dizziness, nauseousness and flu like symptoms for a good >number of hours. Luckily I wasn't the perscriber. > > > > > > > > > > Re: Shan Dou Gen/She Gan > >Tue, 10 Jul 2001 04:55:43 -0000 > > > >, juliej8@a... wrote: > > > Dear Group: > > > > > > Does anyone have experience with possible reactions or toxicity with > >Shan Dou > > > Gen and/or She Gan? > > > >shan dou gen is slightly toxic, though Bensky does not say so. I > >learned this from subhuti Dharmananda. It contains oxymatrine which > >causes the effects you described. the dose you used was higher than > >Bensky's upper range (9g) and my teachers usually never used more than > >6 g per day. > > > >Todd > > > > > >_______________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > >Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare >practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics >specializing >in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, >including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2001 Report Share Posted July 16, 2001 .. My suspicion of it being the cause was that I wouldn't have used such a high dose of She Gan knowing her stomach and She Gan's bitter/cold nature. Then again she also said she took an extra amount of the decoction as well. So it is not that She Gan and/or Shan Dou Gen are toxic and created these side-effects; rather, they were prescribed incorrectly. I think there is a big difference between the two. Many herbs have side-effects when prescribed wrongly. Simon Becker - Rod Le Blanc 7/15/2001 11:59:27 PM RE: Re: Shan Dou Gen/She Gan Stephen Specific evidence would be difficult to come by. Only that the first dose produced mild nauseous and dizziness with some relieve after time. But the second dose later in the day created very strong dizziness and a very nauseous effect with vomit >"Stephen Morrissey" <stephen > >Do you have any specific evidence that your g-friend's reaction was >specifically to the she gan in the formula? I use she gan in a cold/flu >treatment formula that I've prescribed hundreds of times and have not seen >any adverse reactions to its short-term use. > >Stephen > > >Rod Le Blanc [rodleblancdtcm] >Saturday, July 14, 2001 12:38 AM > >Re: Re: Shan Dou Gen/She Gan > >She Gan can be very toxic to some individuals in doses where it might be 25 >% of the formula (I assume that could be 9 grams). My girlfriend once used >a >formula for a sore throat with concentrates of 4 herbs, one being She Gan >and experienced dizziness, nauseousness and flu like symptoms for a good >number of hours. Luckily I wasn't the perscriber. > > > > > > > > > > Re: Shan Dou Gen/She Gan > >Tue, 10 Jul 2001 04:55:43 -0000 > > > >, juliej8@a... wrote: > > > Dear Group: > > > > > > Does anyone have experience with possible reactions or toxicity with > >Shan Dou > > > Gen and/or She Gan? > > > >shan dou gen is slightly toxic, though Bensky does not say so. I > >learned this from subhuti Dharmananda. It contains oxymatrine which > >causes the effects you described. the dose you used was higher than > >Bensky's upper range (9g) and my teachers usually never used more than > >6 g per day. > > > >Todd > > > > > >_______________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > >Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare >practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics >specializing >in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, >including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2001 Report Share Posted July 16, 2001 Rod, what else was in the formula with She Gan that made your friend sick?'s comments last week said the Shan Dou Gen was the toxic one. Should we now consider them BOTH toxic? Does anyone use them other than in a pair? Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2001 Report Share Posted July 16, 2001 In a message dated 7/16/01 1:06:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, simonbecker writes: << So it is not that She Gan and/or Shan Dou Gen are toxic and created these side-effects; rather, they were prescribed incorrectly. I think there is a big difference between the two. Many herbs have side-effects when prescribed wrongly. >> But ARE they toxic? The patient I gave them to also has a tender spleen, but I decided one dose would be worth the risk. Simply having a tender spleen and being given one gram too much would not have resulted in the many hours of vomiting and nausea and dizziness, were the herb(s) not toxic in some inherent way, in my opinion. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2001 Report Share Posted July 17, 2001 Julie Those herbs are too cold and bitter for a weak spleen. Try it yourself, have 30 grams of she gan on an empty stomach , and even the strongest spleen types will get nausea, vomitting and dizzy. PS, I'm kidding, don't try it. Heiko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2001 Report Share Posted July 17, 2001 In a message dated 7/17/01 3:37:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time, heiko writes: <<Those herbs are too cold and bitter for a weak spleen. Try it yourself, have 30 grams of she gan on an empty stomach , and even the strongest spleen types will get nausea, vomitting and dizzy. >> Heiko, I WILL try it! Not 30 grams, but 10 grams, as I gave my patient. I have a pretty strong spleen, but we will see. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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