Guest guest Posted July 19, 2001 Report Share Posted July 19, 2001 Jason Your point about context is well taken. I think some herb functions are more context dependent than others. For instance, in dui yao, I believe it says that the qi raising aspect of sheng ma only occurs in concert with huang qi (or is it vice-versa). thus they work as a pair to accomplish this. On the other hand, I believe huang alone tonifies qi and dan shen alone moves blood and suan zao ren alone calms spirit. Gui zhi exerts its action internally or on the surface based upon its dosage and the dosage of other herbs, the presence of restraining herbs (like bai shao) and whether all the other herbs act internally or exteriorly. for instance, it is much more surface relieving in ma huang tang than gui zhi tang. So does chai hu soothe the liver in bu zhong yi qi tang or does it merely raise yang. I think both and clinically this seems to be my experience? Does bai shao fail to nourish the blood in gui zhi tang because it is included to restrain gui zhi's exterior release. How could this be? As nothing in the formula suppresses this aspect of its function. the formula as a whole does not have strong blood nourishing effect, but it does have some and can thus be used as a base to address this in other diseases. Does ban xia fail to transform phlegm because it was used to descend qi? Well, in my experience, the mere presence of ban xia will lead to drying up of mucus membranes unless the formula suppresses this function (with mai men dong or such). Can I use a sports analogy? In football, a pass can only be completed, a touchdown scored if there is synergy between quarterback, receiver and blockers. Does that mean that the quarterback can only throw if there if there is someone to catch or the receiver can only catch if there is someone to block or blocking can only occur in the context of these other actions. While catching requires a throw, the other actions (plus running to the goal) can exist independently of each other. So we have both synergy and individual action in this example. together they achieve a unique goal. but with herbs, I would say the unique goal is combining the actions to relieve the patient's complaint. with any one herb alone, this may not occur, but the herbs still have their single actions. -- Chinese Herbs VOICE: (858) 946-0070 FAX: (858) 946 0067 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2001 Report Share Posted July 19, 2001 Does bai shao fail to nourish the blood in gui zhi tangbecause it is included to restrain gui zhi's exterior release. Howcould this be? >>>>That has always been my feeling (including having herbs go to one channel seems ridiculous) but in china I was repeatedly told to think this way. Alon - cha Thursday, July 19, 2001 8:31 AM context JasonYour point about context is well taken. I think some herb functions aremore context dependent than others. For instance, in dui yao, I believeit says that the qi raising aspect of sheng ma only occurs in concertwith huang qi (or is it vice-versa). thus they work as a pair toaccomplish this. On the other hand, I believe huang alone tonifies qiand dan shen alone moves blood and suan zao ren alone calms spirit. Guizhi exerts its action internally or on the surface based upon its dosageand the dosage of other herbs, the presence of restraining herbs (likebai shao) and whether all the other herbs act internally or exteriorly.for instance, it is much more surface relieving in ma huang tang thangui zhi tang.So does chai hu soothe the liver in bu zhong yi qi tang or does itmerely raise yang. I think both and clinically this seems to be myexperience? Does bai shao fail to nourish the blood in gui zhi tangbecause it is included to restrain gui zhi's exterior release. Howcould this be? As nothing in the formula suppresses this aspect of itsfunction. the formula as a whole does not have strong blood nourishingeffect, but it does have some and can thus be used as a base to addressthis in other diseases. Does ban xia fail to transform phlegm becauseit was used to descend qi? Well, in my experience, the mere presence ofban xia will lead to drying up of mucus membranes unless the formulasuppresses this function (with mai men dong or such).Can I use a sports analogy? In football, a pass can only be completed,a touchdown scored if there is synergy between quarterback, receiver andblockers. Does that mean that the quarterback can only throw if thereif there is someone to catch or the receiver can only catch if there issomeone to block or blocking can only occur in the context of theseother actions. While catching requires a throw, the other actions (plusrunning to the goal) can exist independently of each other. So we haveboth synergy and individual action in this example. together theyachieve a unique goal. but with herbs, I would say the unique goal iscombining the actions to relieve the patient's complaint. with any oneherb alone, this may not occur, but the herbs still have their singleactions.--Chinese Herbshttp://www..orgVOICE: (858) 946-0070FAX: (858) 946 0067Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2001 Report Share Posted July 19, 2001 , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > Does bai shao fail to nourish the blood in gui zhi tang > because it is included to restrain gui zhi's exterior release. How > could this be? > >>>>That has always been my feeling (including having herbs go to one channel seems ridiculous) but in china I was repeatedly told to think this way. > Alon but xu da chun says this is indeed ludicrous and untrue in his opinion that an herb just has one effect or channel in a given case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2001 Report Share Posted July 19, 2001 but xu da chun says this is indeed ludicrous and untrue in his opinion that an herb just has one effect or channel in a given case.>>>Yes there are many open questions Alon - Thursday, July 19, 2001 10:59 AM Re: context , "Alon Marcus" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> Does bai shao fail to nourish the blood in gui zhi tang> because it is included to restrain gui zhi's exterior release. How> could this be? > >>>>That has always been my feeling (including having herbs go to one channel seems ridiculous) but in china I was repeatedly told to think this way.> Alonbut xu da chun says this is indeed ludicrous and untrue in his opinion that an herb just has one effect or channel in a given case.ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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