Guest guest Posted July 20, 2001 Report Share Posted July 20, 2001 The most disturbing thing about this discussion of whether to treat multiple patterns or just 1-2 patterns is the implicit and sometimes explicit assertion that CM can be practiced from a textbook. As long as one can make the single diagnosis, then one merely needs to go to a textbook and select the formula for that pattern and make slight textbook modifications to address some variations in presenting s/s. Yet none of the chinese doctors who Jason says do 1 pattern dx use this methodology in their prescribing. Instead, they generally tend to write unique formulas that uses pairs of herbs from multiple formulas to address their patients complex complaints. I still argue that this single dx and single formula approach is a derivation of the western medicine method that makes a single dx and chooses one drug to treat it. It was adopted in modern china to try and legitimize TCM to the west. And while Chinese docs certainly had to read the classics, they do not study them seriously until the master's level. Min Fan did this, but he is rare. Less than 10% of TCM docs get masters degrees. As for CS Cheung, my first teacher of clinical herbology at OCOM was Tim Timmons who studied with Cheung directly at ACTCM in the early eighties. Tim spoke and read chinese fluently. He was the first person to advocate the multiple pattern approach to dx to me as he had learned from Cheung. I still use a handout Tim gave me ten years ago to train my students. I'll put it in your mailbox, Jason. -- Chinese Herbs VOICE: (858) 946-0070 FAX: (858) 946 0067 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2001 Report Share Posted July 20, 2001 I think one also has to remember that adding some herbs to deal with other aspects of a patients is not treating multiple patterns. The patient has a major pattern and one can add herbs for two or three other aspects that the particular patient manifests. That is not having multiple patterns. If this is what you are doing then there is no difference then any of my teachers including the SHL. But if one recognizes 5 patterns i.e. syndromes that sound strange to me. So in conclusion if a patient has sp def and at the same time because of the weak spleen he develops damp heat and liver stagnation symptoms that is still one pattern and 2 secondary complications. The main issue in the formula is the spleen and sure you can add a few herbs for the secondary development that are directly due to Spleen weakness. If you do not have a focus then what do you emphasize in the formula. Sp, Liv, Damp Heat Alon - cha Friday, July 20, 2001 8:15 AM cookbooks The most disturbing thing about this discussion of whether to treatmultiple patterns or just 1-2 patterns is the implicit and sometimesexplicit assertion that CM can be practiced from a textbook. As long asone can make the single diagnosis, then one merely needs to go to atextbook and select the formula for that pattern and make slighttextbook modifications to address some variations in presenting s/s.Yet none of the chinese doctors who Jason says do 1 pattern dx use thismethodology in their prescribing. Instead, they generally tend to writeunique formulas that uses pairs of herbs from multiple formulas toaddress their patients complex complaints. I still argue that thissingle dx and single formula approach is a derivation of the westernmedicine method that makes a single dx and chooses one drug to treatit. It was adopted in modern china to try and legitimize TCM to thewest. And while Chinese docs certainly had to read the classics, theydo not study them seriously until the master's level. Min Fan did this,but he is rare. Less than 10% of TCM docs get masters degrees.As for CS Cheung, my first teacher of clinical herbology at OCOM was TimTimmons who studied with Cheung directly at ACTCM in the earlyeighties. Tim spoke and read chinese fluently. He was the first personto advocate the multiple pattern approach to dx to me as he had learnedfrom Cheung. I still use a handout Tim gave me ten years ago to trainmy students. I'll put it in your mailbox, Jason.Todd--Chinese Herbshttp://www..orgVOICE: (858) 946-0070FAX: (858) 946 0067Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2001 Report Share Posted July 20, 2001 I disagree. gan qi zhi/liver qi stagnation or gan qi yu/liver qi depression are patterns, not symptoms. Damp heat in the lower burner is a pattern, a constellation of symptoms such as burning stool that is loose, reddish urine, abdominal distention, and a greasy tongue coat. The damp heat and/or liver stagnation may develop as complications of the spleen xu, but they are still concurrent patterns. On Friday, July 20, 2001, at 10:17 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > So in conclusion if a patient has sp def and at the same time because > of the weak spleen he develops damp heat and liver stagnation symptoms > that is still one pattern and 2 secondary complications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2001 Report Share Posted July 20, 2001 Damp heat in the lower burner is a pattern, a constellation of symptoms such as burning stool that is loose, reddish urine, abdominal distention, and a greasy tongue coat. >>>>Yes if they have almost all of the S/S but in your patients show me one that has the majority of symptoms and signs of 5 patterns Alon - Friday, July 20, 2001 1:15 PM Re: cookbooks I disagree. gan qi zhi/liver qi stagnation or gan qi yu/liver qi depression are patterns, not symptoms. Damp heat in the lower burner is a pattern, a constellation of symptoms such as burning stool that is loose, reddish urine, abdominal distention, and a greasy tongue coat. The damp heat and/or liver stagnation may develop as complications of the spleen xu, but they are still concurrent patterns. On Friday, July 20, 2001, at 10:17 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: So in conclusion if a patient has sp def and at the same time because of the weak spleen he develops damp heat and liver stagnation symptoms that is still one pattern and 2 secondary complications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2001 Report Share Posted July 20, 2001 On Friday, July 20, 2001, at 01:52 PM, Alon Marcus wrote: > Damp heat in the lower burner is a pattern, a constellation of symptoms > such as burning stool that is loose, reddish urine, abdominal > distention, and a greasy tongue coat. > >>>>Yes if they have almost all of the S/S but in your patients show me > one that has the majority of symptoms and signs of 5 patterns > Alon > I do. . . give me some time to prepare one for the e-mail. . . I am overwhelmingly busy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2001 Report Share Posted July 20, 2001 I agree with Z'ev. Patterns are patterns of signs and symptoms. Nothing more, nothing less. Bob , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > I disagree. gan qi zhi/liver qi stagnation or gan qi yu/liver qi > depression are patterns, not symptoms. Damp heat in the lower burner is > a pattern, a constellation of symptoms such as burning stool that is > loose, reddish urine, abdominal distention, and a greasy tongue coat. > The damp heat and/or liver stagnation may develop as complications of > the spleen xu, but they are still concurrent patterns. > > > On Friday, July 20, 2001, at 10:17 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > > > So in conclusion if a patient has sp def and at the same time because > > of the weak spleen he develops damp heat and liver stagnation symptoms > > that is still one pattern and 2 secondary complications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2001 Report Share Posted July 21, 2001 I agree with Z'ev. Patterns are patterns of signs and symptoms. Nothing more, nothing less. >>>there is a difference between sp weakness resulting in accumulation of damp heat in lower burner and a damp heat in lower burner syndrome as a major syndrome such as acute uti. i.e. the formulas for the first is by enlarge to strengthen the spleen and for the other to treat damp heat Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2001 Report Share Posted July 21, 2001 my mail box too please PO Box 18 -826 New Brighton 8007 Christchurch New Zealand :-) Heiko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.