The Classics, the carrot, and the stick

[Guest guest]

I asked this question several times earlier but it was always left

unanswered. What constitutes " a very complete vision of the Chinese

medical literature. " Has someone or any group (even in China) read a

sufficient number of the 80,000 volumes in Chinese and could give us

a real sense of what is missing? What major theories are unspoken

about in English?

 

And don't forget there are equally good doctors in other countries,

like Korea and Vietnam, that have developed and expanded on classical

ideas. Are we ignoring them?

 

Undoubtedly there is a lot of info we would (I would) love to know in

those texts. It might explain away some of the incompleteness and

confusion of the classical texts we are already familiar with.

 

But the whole notion is held out like the carrot on a stick---we can

never reach it. What if we can look at it from a different

perspective: What would be the minimal standard of classic texts

needed to practice medicine in China? And in the USA? Even if the

minimal standard is still being argued about in the USA, the Chinese

themselves must have a defacto standard that we can immatate.

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

, yulong@m... wrote:

> , pemachophel2001 wrote:

> > It seems to me that much of this discussion is based on peoples'

> not

> > having a very complete vision of the Chinese medical literature

> and,

> > therefore, practice in China. To think that even the growing body

> of

> > literature that we currently have in English gives an adequate

> picture

> > of Chinese medicine in the PRC is, I believe, naive.

> >

> ...

>

> I wanted to echo and underscore Bob's remarks

> in this post. We were recently working in the

> libary at the Beijing Academy of TCM. This

> library holds over 80,000 volumes in its

> collection of rare medical books. Some of these

> are the only surviving copies of a work.

>

> To be sure, these 80,000 copies do not come

> close to representing a complete vision of

> Chinese medical literature. These are just the

> rare volumes. They represent a portion of the

> body of the literary transmission of Chinese

> medicine that is currently at risk of being

> lost.

>

> What would ensure this loss is the

> ignoring of its existence on the part of

> individuals who see themselves as the forward

> guard of Chinese medical development in the

> modern age. What will prevent this loss is

> a growing recognition on the part of all who

> practice, teach, and study Chinese medicine

> of their deep dependence on and responsibility

> to and for this body of literature and knowledge.

>

> When we talk about the literature of Chinese

> medicine and about the inadequacy of our

> reception of this literature, this point

> about relative mass of English-language

> books compared to what's available in Chinese

> must be considered, if only from time to time.

>

> Ken

[Guest guest]

Jim,

 

> I asked this question several times earlier but it was always left

> unanswered. What constitutes " a very complete vision of the Chinese

> medical literature. "

 

This question has many answers. Just as we'd

expect to find many answers to such a question

raised about any significant body of literature.

What constitutes a very complete vision of the

English language medical literature? or of the

English language literature on physics?

 

Or any subject.

 

In the end, each of us has to construct our

own complete vision of the Chinese medical

literature. I don't think that the point here

is how to answer your oft asked question.

Rather the point is that in order for any of

us to be able to form a personal vision of

the Chinese medical literature, we have to

have access to it.

 

It is large; it is poorly defined, rather it

has been redefined numerous times throughout

its long history; and it is difficult reading,

even for native Chinese who don't have the

barrier of language to overcome.

 

Of course even native Chinese have to overcome

the barrier of the ancient or classical language

in which much of the medical literature was

written. And this is why in ages past the Chinese

convened groups of scholars to sort through

their medical literature and develop standards

for how to update it and make it more accessible

to the students and doctors of each successive

age. There will be an article in the December issue

of CAOM on this topic of term standardization

throughout Chinese history.

 

But Chinese students face the same burden that

faces any other group of students and practitioners

when it comes to receiving, studying, understanding

and rendering applicable to the contemporary age

this mass of information that constitutes the

Chinese medical archives.

 

Has someone or any group (even in China) read a

> sufficient number of the 80,000 volumes in Chinese and could give

us

> a real sense of what is missing?

 

I think the first thing that I sense is missing

is an awareness of the magnitude of the study

that is involved in traditional Chinese medicine.

This has been missing from the defacto standards

of instruction and examination in the US since

the 70s. Had it not been missing, it would have

been incorporated into the curricula of the

schools and would now be 20-30 years along

in a much needed development. Instead we

have relied upon idiosyncratic interpreatations

of the medical literature leaving the vast

bulk of the original material inaccessible

to contemporary students.

 

In this regard the situation today is better

than thirty years ago, but it needs to be

far better and we should put more attention

on improving it.

 

 

What major theories are unspoken

> about in English?

 

When I taught recently at a couple of schools in Southern

California, and as I meet students and practitioners

around the country, I find that one of the big

areas of theory that is downplayed in current

curricula is jing1 luo4. Since this falls outside

the realm of the CHA list, if you want to follow

it up, come on over to the ChineseMedicine.net list.

 

I don't think the issue is major theories being

missing as much as the qualitative differences

that emerge when a vastly greater quantity of

medical literature is employed as the basis

for a conceptual understanding of the roots

and the foundation of the subject.

 

>

> And don't forget there are equally good doctors in other countries,

> like Korea and Vietnam, that have developed and expanded on

classical

> ideas. Are we ignoring them?

 

We don't. Our familiarity with Korean and

Japanese literature is sorely lacking, and

so we rely on what we know. But, for example, we quote

Xu Jun's Dong Yi Bao Jian as an important

work in the history of Chinese medicine

despite the fact that it was not authored

by a Chinese. And we must not ignore that

in virtually all zones where Chinese medicine

has taken root and developed to an extent

where the local langauge literature must

now be included in the overall archives

of Chinese medicine, the system of education

and qualification has included Chinese

language and study of the Chinese originals.

 

It really is a big mistake to omit this

from education in the subject.

 

 

>

> Undoubtedly there is a lot of info we would (I would) love to know

in

> those texts. It might explain away some of the incompleteness and

> confusion of the classical texts we are already familiar with.

 

I can tell you that with each passing year

of my own study of this material I find

not an explaining away of incompleteness

and confusion but a slow emergence of

an appreciation for (if not any better

understanding of) the incomplete nature

of the knowledge and its implicit confusions.

 

 

>

> But the whole notion is held out like the carrot on a stick---we

can

> never reach it.

 

I don't think it is anything that can be reached.

There's a line from a poem by the great Greek poet

Kavafy that says, " When you set out for Ithaca,

then pray that your journey be long. "

 

In the end, it does not matter whether or not

we reach it. As long as we make daily progress

and as long as our journey is long.

 

What if we can look at it from a different

> perspective: What would be the minimal standard of classic texts

> needed to practice medicine in China?

 

As I said the last time you raised this question,

the beginnings are contained in a textbook called

Yi1 Gu3 Wen2. Beyond this basic course, Chinese students

pursue materials from the classics as they pertain

to their chosen majors.

 

And in the USA? Even if the

> minimal standard is still being argued about in the USA, the

Chinese

> themselves must have a defacto standard that we can immatate.

 

The Chinese have educational standards, but I

would caution and advise against an effort to

immitate them. They are designed to educate

and train Chinese students to practice in a

Chinese environment. We need to do the hard

work of properly receiving the current transmission

of traditional Chinese medicine and we have

to develop our own standards of how to ensure

its continued growth and development based

upon its internal principles and on the

conditions in our external environments.

 

Different time, different place, different

patient (or student, in this case) different

treatment (education).

 

Ken

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

>

>

> , yulong@m... wrote:

> > , pemachophel2001 wrote:

> > > It seems to me that much of this discussion is based on

peoples'

> > not

> > > having a very complete vision of the Chinese medical literature

> > and,

> > > therefore, practice in China. To think that even the growing

body

> > of

> > > literature that we currently have in English gives an adequate

> > picture

> > > of Chinese medicine in the PRC is, I believe, naive.

> > >

> > ...

> >

> > I wanted to echo and underscore Bob's remarks

> > in this post. We were recently working in the

> > libary at the Beijing Academy of TCM. This

> > library holds over 80,000 volumes in its

> > collection of rare medical books. Some of these

> > are the only surviving copies of a work.

> >

> > To be sure, these 80,000 copies do not come

> > close to representing a complete vision of

> > Chinese medical literature. These are just the

> > rare volumes. They represent a portion of the

> > body of the literary transmission of Chinese

> > medicine that is currently at risk of being

> > lost.

> >

> > What would ensure this loss is the

> > ignoring of its existence on the part of

> > individuals who see themselves as the forward

> > guard of Chinese medical development in the

> > modern age. What will prevent this loss is

> > a growing recognition on the part of all who

> > practice, teach, and study Chinese medicine

> > of their deep dependence on and responsibility

> > to and for this body of literature and knowledge.

> >

> > When we talk about the literature of Chinese

> > medicine and about the inadequacy of our

> > reception of this literature, this point

> > about relative mass of English-language

> > books compared to what's available in Chinese

> > must be considered, if only from time to time.

> >

> > Ken

[Guest guest]

On Sunday, July 22, 2001, at 09:12 AM, jramholz wrote:

 

> I asked this question several times earlier but it was always left

> unanswered. What constitutes " a very complete vision of the Chinese

> medical literature. " Has someone or any group (even in China) read a

> sufficient number of the 80,000 volumes in Chinese and could give us

> a real sense of what is missing? What major theories are unspoken

> about in English?

 

I have finally started to translate Dr. Leung Kok-yuen's list of one

hundred essential classical texts that he recommended be studied from

French, compliments of Phillipe Riviere. I should be able to make this

list available to both the Council of Oriental Medical Publishers and

Chinese Herbal Medicine soon. I am about 25% done. When I reach 50%, I'll

send a Word file along to this group.

 

 

[Guest guest]

[Ken] This question has many answers. Just as we'd expect to find

many answers to such a question raised about any significant body of

literature. What constitutes a very complete vision of the English

language medical literature? or of the English language literature on

physics?

 

[Jim] This is a point, by irony and implication, I was trying to make.

But since you used said prior discussions were based on " people

not having a very complete vision of the Chinese medical literature, "

it sounded like there was one. And that's why I keep asking about

a minimum or fundamental standard.

 

[Ken] There will be an article in the December issue of CAOM on this

topic of term standardization throughout Chinese history.

 

[Jim] Good; I'm a r.

 

[Ken] I think the first thing that I sense is missing is an awareness

of the magnitude of the study that is involved in traditional Chinese

medicine.

 

[Jim] Without question. And that's not even taking into account how

the practice will be changed and develop under American influences.

 

[Ken] When I taught recently at a couple of schools in Southern

California, and as I meet students and practitioners around the

country, I find that one of the big areas of theory that is

downplayed in current curricula is jing1 luo4. Since this falls

outside the realm of the CHA list, if you want to follow it up, come

on over to the ChineseMedicine.net list.

 

[Jim] This is an important new point---very specific and the kind of

answer I was hoping to find. I hope it will be discussed in some

detail; and that other topics like it will be identified. I also

happen to think that there is far to little clinical exploration and

commentary of many theories already in English.

 

[Ken] I don't think the issue is major theories being missing as much

as the qualitative differences that emerge when a vastly greater

quantity of medical literature is employed as the basis for a

conceptual understanding of the roots and the foundation of the

subject.

 

[Jim] I think both are of importance. For myself, I'm occupied

by developing certain classical ideas in pulse diagnosis which,

have, until now, been untranslated into English. We just need more

people so each line of thinking is developed.

 

[Ken] I can tell you that with each passing year

of my own study of this material I find

not an explaining away of incompleteness

and confusion but a slow emergence of

an appreciation for (if not any better

understanding of) the incomplete nature

of the knowledge and its implicit confusions.

 

[Jim] So when does the fog of incompleteness and confusion lift?

 

[Ken] As I said the last time you raised this question,

the beginnings are contained in a textbook called

Yi1 Gu3 Wen2. Beyond this basic course, Chinese students

pursue materials from the classics as they pertain

to their chosen majors.

 

[Jim] Can you publish a synopsis of the Yi Gu Wen? We can compare

the scope of the Chinese education to the American one. Or, perhaps a

better question would be " what do you envision as your ideal TCM

education for America. "

[Guest guest]

Ken

What book you are talking about? I have two Yi Gu Wen. One is for self education

for medical students by Yan Yiye published in Hebei. Very good, with

explanations, commetaries, translation into modern Chinese. " Yi gu wen.Zhongyi

zixiu du ben " 1996, the 3-d edition. the other is Yi Gu Wen published for

students in series of Higher Chenese medicine education books like curse of

Chenese medicine yi gu wen. (Gaodeng yiyao yuaxiao jiaocai)Because it is jiaocai

it is oriented more for the in class studies and there is no good explanations

in it. I personally prefer the first one.

Yuri

 

 

 

 

jramholz

Mon, 23 Jul 2001 06:07:46 -0000

Re: The Classics, the carrot, and the stick

 

 

 

 

[Ken] As I said the last time you raised this question,

the beginnings are contained in a textbook called

Yi1 Gu3 Wen2. Beyond this basic course, Chinese students

pursue materials from the classics as they pertain

to their chosen majors.

 

[Jim] Can you publish a synopsis of the Yi Gu Wen? We can compare

the scope of the Chinese education to the American one. Or, perhaps a

better question would be " what do you envision as your ideal TCM

education for America. "

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in

Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including

board approved online continuing education.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yuri,

 

In fact there are several editions of Yi1 Gu3 Wen2

in the PRC. I was mainly referring to the course which

is usually taught using a book like the one you

mention below, i.e. the second of the two.

 

I've got three or four different versions as well

as word lists and dictionaries that are designed

to aid students in the study of Yi1 Gu3 Wen2. The

basic outline of materials is as contained in the

textbook you note below, again the second of the

two books you mention.

 

Ken

 

, " yuri ovchinikov " <yuriovi@v...>

wrote:

> Ken

> What book you are talking about? I have two Yi Gu Wen. One is for

self education for medical students by Yan Yiye published in Hebei.

Very good, with explanations, commetaries, translation into modern

Chinese. " Yi gu wen.Zhongyi zixiu du ben " 1996, the 3-d edition. the

other is Yi Gu Wen published for students in series of Higher Chenese

medicine education books like curse of Chenese medicine yi gu wen.

(Gaodeng yiyao yuaxiao jiaocai)Because it is jiaocai it is oriented

more for the in class studies and there is no good explanations in

it. I personally prefer the first one.

> Yuri

>

>

>

>

> jramholz

> Mon, 23 Jul 2001 06:07:46 -0000

>

> Re: The Classics, the carrot, and the

stick

>

>

>

>

> [Ken] As I said the last time you raised this question,

> the beginnings are contained in a textbook called

> Yi1 Gu3 Wen2. Beyond this basic course, Chinese students

> pursue materials from the classics as they pertain

> to their chosen majors.

>

> [Jim] Can you publish a synopsis of the Yi Gu Wen? We can compare

> the scope of the Chinese education to the American one. Or, perhaps

a

> better question would be " what do you envision as your ideal TCM

> education for America. "

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

of professional services, including board approved online continuing

education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jim,

 

>

> [Jim] Can you publish a synopsis of the Yi Gu Wen? We can compare

> the scope of the Chinese education to the American one.

 

We're working on a series of books along these

lines.

 

Or, perhaps a

> better question would be " what do you envision as your ideal TCM

> education for America. "

 

Not a bad question at that. I would certainly like to

read people's answers.

 

If you want to get a sense of how I would approach

developing an ideal education in Chinese medicine,

you can have a look at Who Can Ride the Dragon?

It is more or less an annotated outline of subjects

that one would have to have some familiarity with

in order to begin to study Chinese medicine in

anything approaching an ideal way.

 

And in the preface to that book, you'll find

a translation of a passage from the introduction

to Sun Si Miao's Prescriptions Worth A Thousand

Gold Pieces in which the old master offers up

his own prerequisites to the study of medicine.

 

They seem pretty valid to me.

 

Ken