Guest guest Posted July 28, 2001 Report Share Posted July 28, 2001 acugirlnyc wrote: > I am thinking Wind cold invasion which was precipitatd by the use of very > cold and numerous and strong antibiotics which basically were " guided " to her > nose. There is no damp sensation and it is better with warmth. > > Any thoughts out there? Smells like a channel pathology to me. Perhaps some moxa to the local points and warming of the stomach, L.I. and Du meridians? -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2001 Report Share Posted July 28, 2001 The technic is. steam her nose, warm her body with the fire, becareful, do not get a fire to the house. Put her on the bamdo bed, cover her with the blanket, then burn under the the bambo bed. Do not get the fire, do with skillful so it can not get fire. this is tribe technic of thousand years of our ansestors and the sickness just apear back again lately Good luck Nhung Ta acugirlnyc wrote: > Hi > I have been lurking for a while. Have an interesting case. Haven't seen the > patient yet, so don't have a lot of particulars, but was curious if anyone > had seen this before. 65 year old woman who traveled in Vietnam and Laos > early this year. Contracted a bacterial infection " in her nose' and upon her > return to the states took " about 5 " different antibiotics and finally ridded > herself of the infection. However, she was left with what she calls a " cold > nose " which " pulls " to the side and feels " empty. " It is worse in the wind > and a/c. For a time, it wasn't constant, but since she had acupuncture with > another practitioner 2 weeks ago the frequency and length of the coldness has > increased (the practitioner did " patchi patchi " (sp?) from du 20 to a du > point under the chin and some " leg points " --I haven't spoken to her). She > has also seen " countless' western mds who have given hr many tests and who > have no idea what her diagnosis is. She is wary about acupuncture given that > she got worse before, even though I explained that sometimes with treatment, > a patient can get worse before better. One question I didn't ask her on the > phone was whether the cold sensation was objective as well as subjective. She > is very frustrated, talkative, and annoyed. I don't know much else, but will > when I see her next week. I explained that she may not see any results for > between 2-4 treatments and it won't likely be dramatic. > > I am thinking Wind cold invasion which was precipitatd by the use of very > cold and numerous and strong antibiotics which basically were " guided " to her > nose. There is no damp sensation and it is better with warmth. > > Any thoughts out there? > Hillary > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2001 Report Share Posted July 28, 2001 Dear Hillary, It will be interesting to see what your particulars on tongue, pulse and symptom pattern are when the patient comes in . A couple of points. . . .1) it sounds like there may be tissue damage to the mucosa. Check for that first. 2) I don't know about the idea of 'things getting worse before they get better'. I am unaware of this being a concept in Chinese medicine. My understanding is that this is a sign of wrong treatment aggravating the condition. The 'healing crisis' is a naturopathic concept, and doesn't really apply to Chinese medical treatment. On Saturday, July 28, 2001, at 11:36 AM, acugirlnyc (AT) aol (DOT) com wrote: > Hi > I have been lurking for a while. Have an interesting case. Haven't seen the > patient yet, so don't have a lot of particulars, but was curious if anyone > had seen this before. 65 year old woman who traveled in Vietnam and Laos > early this year. Contracted a bacterial infection "in her nose' and upon her > return to the states took "about 5" different antibiotics and finally ridded > herself of the infection. However, she was left with what she calls a "cold > nose" which "pulls" to the side and feels "empty." It is worse in the wind > and a/c. For a time, it wasn't constant, but since she had acupuncture with > another practitioner 2 weeks ago the frequency and length of the coldness has > increased (the practitioner did "patchi patchi" (sp?) from du 20 to a du > point under the chin and some "leg points"--I haven't spoken to her). She > has also seen "countless' western mds who have given hr many tests and who > have no idea what her diagnosis is. She is wary about acupuncture given that > she got worse before, even though I explained that sometimes with treatment, > a patient can get worse before better. One question I didn't ask her on the > phone was whether the cold sensation was objective as well as subjective. She > is very frustrated, talkative, and annoyed. I don't know much else, but will > when I see her next week. I explained that she may not see any results for > between 2-4 treatments and it won't likely be dramatic. > > I am thinking Wind cold invasion which was precipitatd by the use of very > cold and numerous and strong antibiotics which basically were "guided" to her > nose. There is no damp sensation and it is better with warmth. > > Any thoughts out there? > Hillary > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2001 Report Share Posted July 29, 2001 --- Dear Z'ev, My eyebrows raised abit at your statement. Because I, too, understood that a patient could experience some unpleasantness when prompting the body to heal or in fighting an illness, external or internal. That healing in itself brings symptoms most people attempt to suppress (ie. Western Med.). Since I'm still a student I decided to consult one of my Chinese Dr.'s. His feeling was that patients will not always be happy with what is going on after an effective treatment. But to what degree is probably more in question. He did remark that one should always inform the patient of what they might experience so that it does not seem worse than it might actually be ... for being unexpected. Kit In , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > the idea of > 'things getting worse before they get better'. I am unaware of this > being a concept in Chinese medicine. My understanding is that this is a > sign of wrong treatment aggravating the condition. The 'healing crisis' > is a naturopathic concept, and doesn't really apply to Chinese medical > treatment. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2001 Report Share Posted July 30, 2001 A feeling of ephemeral unpleasantness is not a 'healing crisis'. A temporary discomforting situation that resolves itself in a relatively short time is not a healing crisis, such as the example as the discomfort felt as the qi moves in a channel with temporary worsening of pain (as Heiko mentioned) . A 'healing crisis', where a significant skin rash develops, or a patient has vomiting or cramping, has to be looked at carefully to see if an illness is attempting to leave the body, or if the treatment is actually misguided and making the patient feel worse. If a patient with a wind-heat attack suddenly develops a severe sore throat, this is NOT a sign of healing. A worsening of depression or anxiety is not a healing crisis. Diarrhea or vomiting as a result of treatment, unless specifically desired as in the use of cathartic purgatives (harsh expellants) to clear severe glomus or qi blockage, is not a healing crisis, it is wrong treatment. If one treats a patient correctly, one should not have to deal with worsening symptoms, such as in cancer pain, asthmatic attacks, arthritic pain, etc. One can slowly and gradually wean off of a medication while dealing with the underlying disease. This is what I am referring to. On Sunday, July 29, 2001, at 06:24 PM, kitcurtin (AT) earthlink (DOT) net wrote: > --- > Dear Z'ev, > > My eyebrows raised abit at your statement. Because I, too, > understood that a patient could experience some unpleasantness > when prompting the body to heal or in fighting an illness, external > or internal. That healing in itself brings symptoms most people > attempt to suppress (ie. Western Med.). Since I'm still a > student I decided to consult one of my Chinese Dr.'s. His feeling > was that patients will not always be happy with what is going > on after an effective treatment. But to what degree is probably > more in question. He did remark that one should always inform > the patient of what they might experience so that it does not seem > worse than it might actually be ... for being unexpected. > > Kit > > > > In , "" <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > the idea of > > 'things getting worse before they get better'. I am unaware of > this > > being a concept in Chinese medicine. My understanding is that this > is a > > sign of wrong treatment aggravating the condition. The 'healing > crisis' > > is a naturopathic concept, and doesn't really apply to Chinese > medical > > treatment. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2001 Report Share Posted July 31, 2001 , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: If a patient with a wind-heat attack suddenly develops a > severe sore throat, this is NOT a sign of healing. A worsening of > depression or anxiety is not a healing crisis. Diarrhea or vomiting as > a result of treatment, unless specifically desired as in the use of > cathartic purgatives (harsh expellants) to clear severe glomus or qi > blockage, is not a healing crisis, it is wrong treatment. I agree with Z'ev. In the typical patient, I do not expect the classic examples of the healing crisis as desribed in naturopathy and consider the appearance of those effects to be an indication I have erred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2001 Report Share Posted July 31, 2001 I have treated some patients and students also have had it happen to them at college that sometimes when treating it " stirs " up emotional stuff, eg makes them more depressed for the day or two after ( we are talking acupuncture only here) the treatment to be followed by an improvement. This I can only observe as a worsening followed by improvment. Though Chinese sources never mention such reactions. Was it the wrong Tx, placebo? . If it was wrong treatment , why then the improvent later on. With herbs I have , I'm sorry to say, definately had unwanted reactions , eg loose stools from herbs being too cold /greasy. Defiantely not a healing reaction. Heiko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2001 Report Share Posted July 31, 2001 Heiko, I have also experienced patients who get stirred up emotionally from treatment, although to say they are depressed afterwards makes little sense to me. There are too many variables here.. . . is the patient taking medication, what are the symptoms associated with their depression (is it just feeling tired after emotional expression), what is the pattern being treated, what medicinals or points used. I don't know if I'd call this a healing crisis, and this is not what is considered to be so in the naturopathic literature. On Tuesday, July 31, 2001, at 02:42 AM, Heiko Lade wrote: > I have treated some patients and students also have had it happen to > them at college that sometimes when treating it "stirs" up emotional > stuff, eg makes them more depressed for the day or two after ( we are > talking acupuncture only here) the treatment to be followed by an > improvement. > This I can only observe as a worsening followed by improvment. Though > Chinese sources never mention such reactions. Was it the wrong Tx, > placebo? . If it was wrong treatment , why then the improvent later on. > . > > Heiko > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.