Pc-SPES

[Guest guest]

I was talking to a MD. college of mine concerning a patient taking PC-SPES.

He commented on the need to take coumidin with the formula due to fear of

clotting because of its anit-estrogeninc effect. I explained this is one of

the dangers from prescribing a herbal formula based on the pharmacological

constitutes of a herb.

This conversation raised two questions.

1. Do herbs that exhibit anit-estrogenic activity produce a propensity for

clotting?

2. How do blood invigorators work.

 

Jacob

[Guest guest]

Cara (and the group),

 

My post on PC-SPEC was mistakenly sent to the CHA site, it was meant

to be a private post, written off the cuff, and meant to be followed up

with a phone discussion later, as I often do with Yanky (Jacob), my dear

friend and former student. I thought his post was addressed to me

privately. I have requested that my original response be deleted, as

there were several mistakes in it.

 

Since it appears that some individuals have read and responded to the

original post, I am going to post a more formal response here now.

 

We had a rather heated discussion on this site on PC-SPES some months

ago, a very controversial subject. Since that time, my views on this

product have changed a bit, so I wanted to list them here.

 

My last post should have said " seems to have a drug-LIKE response " .

Having read the product literature, and seen a few patients who are

taking it, the effects of PC-SPES are much stronger than any herbal

product I have seen. The side-effects (gynomastia and impotence,

primarily) are not typical with herbal preparations. I am impressed,

at the same time, that CA-125 markers seem to be lowered significantly

on the product. This, of course is a definite beneficial effect in

patients with prostate cancer, and I honor that with those patients,

although I have concerns about the side-effects and won't recommend the

product myself. The side-effects remind me of Lupron therapy, also

used with prostate cancer patients. Therefore, I feel that management

of patients taking PC-SPECS is more appropriate for M.D.'s.

 

The physician who recommended coumadin, a very powerful

blood-thinning drug, was implying that the effects of PC-SPES were quite

powerful especially with anti-estrogenic (???) effects , and needed a

very strong blood thinner to prevent clotting. Again, these are

pharmacological understandings, and basically puts PC-SPES in a

drug-like category, again, unlike any other herbal product I have seen.

 

The closest I come to understanding this scenario is the difference

between DHEA that you get as a prescription, which is prepared like a

drug by a molecular fixation process, and that which you get from

naturopaths and health food stores. There is an increase in potency in

the 'pharmaceutical DHEA' over the 'natural', but also a potential

increase in side effects. So, I have a question and concern about the

processing methods for PC-SPECS, because none of the ingredients should

produce such strong side-effects or anti-estrogenic (or is it

anti-testosteronic?) effects. Ditto for the herb interaction.

 

 

I would be interested to see what individuals on the list, such as

Gilbert Arnold had to say about this. And I'd welcome input from the

product developer as well on processing methods.

 

As everyone knows, dealing with cancer patients is a delicate

topic.. . and the products that they choose. Within the boundaries of

my profession, I choose to limit myself to prescribing traditional

Chinese herbal formulas, and some 'Western' herb products for which I

have training. I prescribe according to pattern diagnosis, therefore I

cannot consider PS-SPES for my patients without a complete understanding

of how it affects them from a CM point of view. The recommendations

and effects seem to be highly pharmacological to me, and I do not

recommend direct treatments for specific types of cancer. As I have

done in the few cases I have seen where patients are using this product,

I recommend that they consult with a Western physician.

 

To conclude, in the last several months, I neither condone or

discourage use of PC-SPES. For myself, I consider it outside the scope

of what I do as a practitioner of Chinese medicine. Everyone else will

have to make that decision for themselves, based on their knowledge base

and scope of practice.

 

 

 

 

On Wednesday, August 15, 2001, at 02:46 PM, Cara Frank wrote:

 

>

>

> Z'ev,

> I've spoken w/ Sophie Chen, the developer of PC-Spes and there

> definilty no

> drugs in it.

> Cara

>

>

[Guest guest]

, Cara Frank <herbbabe@e...> wrote:

 

> Z'ev,

> I've spoken w/ Sophie Chen, the developer of PC-Spes and there definilty no

> drugs in it.

> Cara

 

 

for previous CHA discussion on this topic, see

 

/messagesearch?query=

PC-SPES

 

I suspect the product contains purified herbal constituents, which

could arguably be called drugs. is vitamin c a drug? is arginine a

drug? is scopalamine a drug? these are all plant extracts? some

plant constituents are relatively safe, others are moderately safe and

others are dangerous. I would want Ms. Chen to clarify this point.

Are these crude extracts with hundreds of synergistic constituents in

natural proortions? Or have isolated constits been extracted and

concentrated. to be honest, at the recommended label dose and because

most of the listed herbs have no known estrogenic effect, I cannot

believe this is anything but a druglike substance. Having said that, I

do believe it is made from all natural plant extracts, is safer than

drug therapy and should be considered in the treatment of prostate

cancer. However, it should be used under medical supervisopon by MD's

or ND's. the potential for side effects needs to be monitored by

western medical methods.

 

[Guest guest]

I have a hard time believing pcspes is purely herbal

alon

 

-

jacobgerlitz

Saturday, August 04, 2001 5:32 PM

Pc-SPES

I was talking to a MD. college of mine concerning a patient taking PC-SPES.He commented on the need to take coumidin with the formula due to fear ofclotting because of its anit-estrogeninc effect. I explained this is one ofthe dangers from prescribing a herbal formula based on the pharmacologicalconstitutes of a herb.This conversation raised two questions.1. Do herbs that exhibit anit-estrogenic activity produce a propensity forclotting?2. How do blood invigorators work.Jacob Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

I suspect that there are drugs in it

>>>Me too

 

-

 

Sunday, August 05, 2001 8:43 AM

Re: Pc-SPES

On Saturday, August 4, 2001, at 05:32 PM, jacobgerlitz wrote:

I was talking to a MD. college of mine concerning a patient taking PC-SPES.He commented on the need to take coumidin with the formula due to fear ofclotting because of its anit-estrogeninc effect. I explained this is one ofthe dangers from prescribing a herbal formula based on the pharmacologicalconstitutes of a herb.This conversation raised two questions.1. Do herbs that exhibit anit-estrogenic activity produce a propensity forclotting?First of all, PC-SPES uses concentrated herbal extracts, that have a stronger effect than just the herbs. Also, because of its effects, I suspect that there are drugs in it. Finally, yes, anti-estrogenic herbs can produce clotting

2. How do blood invigorators work.Coumadin is a toxic drug, and can kill rats. It is a toxic medicinal, somewhat like the wingless cockroach used in TCM, and breaks up blood clotting. I think both ends of the equation are speculative (PC-SPECULATIVE and COUMADIN) based on a theoretical idea that may not have much weight in reality. Better to use an herbal addition to PC-SPECS, or better yet, not use PC-SPECS at all. It is too dangerous.

JacobChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

--- Z'ev wrote:

 

> Coumadin is a toxic drug, and can kill rats. It is

> a toxic medicinal,

> somewhat like the wingless cockroach used in TCM,

> and breaks up blood

> clotting.

 

Small correction here, coumadin is an anticoagulant

(vit K antagonist) and not a thrombolytic drug. It

prevents clotting but AFAIK won't lyse clots which are

already formed.

 

 

 

=====

Robert Hayden, L.Ac.

http://jabinet.net

 

 

 

Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Messenger

http://phonecard./

[Guest guest]

> First of all, PC-SPES uses concentrated herbal extracts, that have a

> stronger effect than just the herbs. Also, because of its effects, I

> suspect that there are drugs in it.

 

Z'ev,

I've spoken w/ Sophie Chen, the developer of PC-Spes and there definilty no

drugs in it.

Cara

 

 

>

[Guest guest]

.. I would want Ms. Chen to clarify this point.

 

believe me, Sophie chen is a researcher and a scientist. her intentions are

honorable. her product however, I feel, is a drug compound- not an herb

formula.

 

 

Cara

>

>