Guest guest Posted August 16, 2001 Report Share Posted August 16, 2001 Hi I am applying to be a service provider for an insurance company in California. On their application, they attach a list of " banned " substances by the California Food and Drug Branch. Among them are Shi Chang Pu. This was the oddest inclusion. Others include Ma Zi Ren and Huo Ma Ren (!), Bing Pian and a number of herbs that are used externally. I contacted the company to ask why those herbs were on the list, and which research the " banning " was based on. They didnt know, but said they got it from the california state govt. Has anyone ever heard of these substances being " banned " in california? Thanks! Hillary NYC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2001 Report Share Posted August 16, 2001 In a message dated 8/16/01 11:14:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time, acugirlnyc writes: << Has anyone ever heard of these substances being " banned " in california? Thanks! >> Hilary, yes, the CA board does ban those substances. They have a list that you can obtain. When we teach continuing education courses, we have to sign a statement that we will not teach herbs from that banned list. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2001 Report Share Posted August 16, 2001 In a message dated 8/16/01 2:05:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time, alstone writes: << > When we teach continuing education courses, we have to sign a > statement that we will not teach herbs from that banned list. > > Julie REALLY? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? Nothing like a gag order to help practitioners learn about hazardous herbs. >> Well, maybe it says that we will not promote the use of such herbs...I would have to check the exact wording. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2001 Report Share Posted August 16, 2001 In a message dated 8/16/01 5:48:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time, heiko writes: << Julie Do you know it is banned...? toxic ? >> The various reasons for banning herbs range from toxicity to endangered species to fear of abuse, I think! In the case of Shi Chang Pu, I have heard that it is banned because of its ability to sedate! I could be wrong. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2001 Report Share Posted August 16, 2001 juliej8 wrote: > When we teach continuing education courses, we have to sign a > statement that we will not teach herbs from that banned list. > > Julie REALLY? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? Nothing like a gag order to help practitioners learn about hazardous herbs. </sarcasm> -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2001 Report Share Posted August 16, 2001 Julie Do you know it is banned...? toxic ? In Australia now, I believe in the state of Victoria , fu zi is in the process of being allowed to be presribed by registered paractitioners !! Will, (Mclean) if you are on , do you know anymore about this. Heiko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2001 Report Share Posted August 16, 2001 In a message dated 8/16/01 5:47:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time, heiko writes: Do you know it is banned...? toxic ? In Australia now, I believe in the state of Victoria , fu zi is in the process of being allowed to be presribed by registered paractitioners !! Will, (Mclean) if you are on , do you know anymore about this. Sorry,,,different Will here. The use of Acorus species is banned for herbal use in Canada. The state of California may be using that list. It is also banned from use in the food supply here in the US. It could be this since California laws and regs states the use of herbs as a food supplement, they construe it as a nonlegal use of the material. One active constituent is beta-asarone which should not be used long term because of documented chromosomal damage on human lymphocytes, mutagenic properties in bacteria, and carcinogenic properties in rats (De Smut, 1992). This activity is more prominent in the Indian species A. angustatus. This may the basis of regulatory agency positions regarding the use of this material in the market place. Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 16, 2001 Report Share Posted August 16, 2001 , WMorris116@A... wrote: : > > > One active constituent is beta-asarone which should not be used long term > because of documented chromosomal damage on human lymphocytes, mutagenic > properties in bacteria, and carcinogenic properties in rats (De Smut, 1992). It is definitely the carcinogenic beta-asarone that is the basis of banning acorus species. I believe acorus calamus is actually banned by the federal FDA. However, beta-asarone is an essential oil that is destroyed by prolonged cooking. the traditional method of cooking for shi chang pu is to long cook it with the other herbs. I am not sure the beta asarone is the basis of its activity in TCM. However, some people short cook shi chang pu. since this herb may be used longterm, This may be risky. Maybe Karen Vaughn can comment on this. I am also curious whether herb companies that make powdered extracts recover the essential oils of this herb. Finally, the dosages necessary to induce cancer may be far beyond standard usage. shi chang pu was often used in longevity formulas, which belies it supposed toxicity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 2001 Report Share Posted August 17, 2001 In a message dated 8/16/01 8:52:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, juliej8 writes: << The various reasons for banning herbs range from toxicity to endangered species to fear of abuse, I think! In the case of Shi Chang Pu, I have heard that it is banned because of its ability to sedate! I could be wrong. Julie>> WHy might huo ma ren be banned? And ma zi ren? and the whole list of external herbs that are on the list..? Hillary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 2001 Report Share Posted August 17, 2001 Hillary, if you are in New York, why are you applying to be a network practitioner with a CA insurance company? If it is just that the company is based in CA, but your treatments can be given in NY, then it seems NY laws should prevail over your practice, not CA laws. I contract with several insurance companies, and I am IN California and I have never been asked not to use the " banned " herbs. I too use Huo Ma Ren. A mystery. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 17, 2001 Report Share Posted August 17, 2001 In a message dated 8/17/01 2:53:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, juliej8 writes: << Hillary, if you are in New York, why are you applying to be a network practitioner with a CA insurance company? If it is just that the company is based in CA, but your treatments can be given in NY, then it seems NY laws should prevail over your practice, not CA laws. I contract with several insurance companies, and I am IN California and I have never been asked not to use the " banned " herbs. I too use Huo Ma Ren. A mystery. >> Julie- this insurance company is based in Cali, but has networks all over. And yes, they are asking me to sign a " scope of practice " form which would prohibit me from using the stated herbs in my practice, even prohibit me having the herbs in my office .I called them and told them to send me back my application, and I told them why. Huo Ma Ren is on the list of banned substance of the Cal FDA, according to this company. I too, would imagine that NY law would prevail, but I guess insurance companies can do whatever they want. I told the company that they should change their policy, or at least have done more research so when I asked them why the herbs in question were not permitted, they could send me further info. So, my first attempt to contract with an insurance company has left me more wary than even before. Hillary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2001 Report Share Posted August 19, 2001 shi chang pu was often used > in longevity formulas, which belies it supposed toxicity. > Todd- there's many references ( the Nei jing comes to mind? where have I read it?) to the use of cinnabar ( a mercury compound) as an elixir for immortality. it, of course, induced serious mortality! lots a of cases histories involving drooling. I wouldn't rely on ancient texts as a reliable source of toxicology. OK, OK- I'll try to look it up this week. Cara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2001 Report Share Posted August 19, 2001 , Cara Frank <herbbabe@e...> wrote: > > Todd- there's many references ( the Nei jing comes to mind? where have I > read it?) to the use of cinnabar ( a mercury compound) as an elixir for > immortality. it, of course, induced serious mortality! I thought properly prepared cinnabar was not toxic. Anyway, I am the last one to rely on classics for issues of toxicity. Classic texts appear to have missed aristolochic acid toxicity, as well. My post pointed out that preparation and dosage may have have mitigated any toxicity for shi chang pu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2001 Report Share Posted August 20, 2001 The American Herbal Products Association's Botanical Safety Handbook classifies Shi Chang Pu as a class 2b herb, i.e., " not to be used during pregnancy unless otherwise directed by an expert qualified in the use of this substance. " The offending substance is beta-asarone, a potential hepatocarcinogenic constituent found in the essential oils of several plants in the Acorus and Asarum genera of the Araceae and Aristolochiae families respectively. " The potential hazard to humans of low doses of allybenzenes (e.g. beta-asraone, estragole, and safrole) is very minimal. Consuming several grams will generate very small quantities of genotoxic metabolites that are quickly broken down by the cytosolic and microsomal epoxide hydrolases of the liver. Nevertheless, herbs containing beta-asarone should not be used long-term because they have been documented to have chromosome damaging effects on human lymphocytes, mutagenic property in bacteria, and carcinogenic activity in rats. " " All varieties of calamus are prohibited in foods in the United States and are listed as unaccpetable non-medicinal ingredients for oral use in Canada. " " Herbs listed in the Botanical Safety Handbook that contain beta-asarone: Acorus calamus, Asarum canadense, Acorus gramineus, Asarum euopaeum " , @i... wrote: > , Cara Frank <herbbabe@e...> wrote: > > > > > > Todd- there's many references ( the Nei jing comes to mind? where have I > > read it?) to the use of cinnabar ( a mercury compound) as an elixir for > > immortality. it, of course, induced serious mortality! > > I thought properly prepared cinnabar was not toxic. Anyway, I am the > last one to rely on classics for issues of toxicity. Classic texts > appear to have missed aristolochic acid toxicity, as well. My post > pointed out that preparation and dosage may have have mitigated any > toxicity for shi chang pu. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 30, 2001 Report Share Posted August 30, 2001 <<I believe acorus calamus is actually banned by the federal FDA. However, beta-asarone is an essential oil that is destroyed by prolonged cooking. the traditional method of cooking for shi chang pu is to long cook it with the other herbs.>> Traditionally in Mideastern and European herbalism, the acorus calamus was candied, thus cooked for a long period which would reduce the beta-asarone. Native Americans did chew the raw root as well as infuse and decoct it, but the dosage would tend to be self-limited as the taste can become unpleasant after prolonged chewing. (And I believe that the native American calamus species are somewhat milder.) However in large doses sweet flag can be mildly hallucinogenic and quite emetic. The Mongolians, who brought calamus to Russia in the 13th century, were known for planting the stronger Indian and Chinese versions of the root near water sources in order to keep the drinking water pure. It's nickname " Mongolian Poison " appears to be a slur against the Mongols rather than a reference to the plant, which was considered benign. However this tradition made more use of the antiseptic qualities of calamus. The live plant was introduced into Europe in 1565 and widely distributed by the botanist Clausius. It was decocted for food stagnation, and for problems of the liver, gallbladder, kidney, bladder and for malaria. Leaves were burned as an aromatic disinfectant and insectide. The roots were burned to clear the air from typhus, cholera and influenza. It was used topically and in alcohol solution as a disinfectant, for scrofula and for ulcerous skin conditions. In Ayurveda, Acorus calamus is known as vacha and is generally used as a dried powder. This probably leads to a partial dispersion of the essential oils. It is considered light and drying and is frequently used for epilepsy and as a gargle for acute tonsilitis. It can be boiled with milk to reduce the mucous-producing properties of the milk. Doug, in reference to your experience, vacha is actually used to counteract the effects of constant marijuana smoking. According to King's American Dispensatory the dose of infusion is made by scalding 4 drahms of the root, coarsely bruised in 8 fluid ounces of water, dosage 4-8 oz., of the powdered root, 20-40 grains; a tincture may be prepared from 1 part of the root and 5 parts of alcohol - dose: 5-30 minims. Not all preparations would eliminate the beta-asarone. One note which may account for the California ban: sweet flag oil is widely used as an aromatic wine adulturant. The FDA frowns upon the sale and use of calamus and has issued directives to certain herb dealers not to sell it to the public.( An FDA directive is simply a polite word for a threat of hassling without a law to back it.) At present there are no federal laws against calamus. Karen Vaughan CreationsGarden *************************************** Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment. " I am following Nature without being able to grasp her...I perhaps owe having become a painter to flowers. " --Claude Monet ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 30, 2001 Report Share Posted August 30, 2001 In a message dated 8/29/01 11:18:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time, creationsgarden writes: << (And I believe that the native American calamus species are somewhat milder.) However in large doses sweet flag can be mildly hallucinogenic and quite emetic. >> Dear Karen, thank you for all the info on Acorus. When you say " native american calamus species are milder " , isn't " calamus " a species name itself? Do you mean the native americans had a different species of Acorus? Where does calamus species come from? Also, do your comments on " calamus " also apply to Acorus gramineus which is the species used in the Chinese materia medica? Thank you again. Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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