Guest guest Posted September 9, 2001 Report Share Posted September 9, 2001 Hi All, I'm not sure if my last message went through because I pressed Post instead of Send at the bottom of the screen, so here goes again. Does anyone know why the orange package of Yunnan Pai Yao capsules carries the caution - do not take within 24 hours of eating broad beans, fish, cold or sour foods? I can't find any such restrictions in Materia Medica for San Qi. Thanks, Diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2001 Report Share Posted September 10, 2001 Diane, Here's an ethical question for everyone. Granted, Yunann Bai Yao is extremely effective. However, as far as I know, it's ingredients are not listed on the packaging. Yes, it's common knowledge that one of its main ingredients is San Qi. However, I'm under the impression that, like Liu Shen Wan, this is a " secret formula " and its full list of ingredients is not published. If that's correct (I don't have a recent package at hand to check this, so I could be all wrong on this), should we prescribe a medicine whose ingredients we don't know? I'm just imagining myself in court being questioned by a hostile attorney. " So tell me, Mr. Flaws, did you or did you not prescribe a Chinese patent medicine named Yunnan Bai Yao to Ms. So-and-so on Sept. 10, 2001? If so, can you tell me the ingredients in that medicine? If you cannot, can you explain to me why you thought or currently do think it was/is okay to prescribe something to someone whose ingredients you do not know? What would you say about an MD, DC, or ND who prescribed something whose ingredients they didn't know? Would you think they were acting responsibily, professionally, credibly? " I'm asking this question having prescribed this med myself many, many times in the past. However, I've begun to question this practice. Maybe that's because, after 22 years in practice, I have been deposed and I have had to testify in court. So I know this can and does happen. Bob , diane@s... wrote: > Hi All, > > I'm not sure if my last message went through because I pressed Post > instead of Send at the bottom of the screen, so here goes again. > > Does anyone know why the orange package of Yunnan Pai Yao capsules > carries the caution - do not take within 24 hours of eating broad > beans, fish, cold or sour foods? I can't find any such restrictions > in Materia Medica for San Qi. > > Thanks, > > Diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2001 Report Share Posted September 10, 2001 The Yunnan Bai Yao that I have in my clinic has the ingredients listed. I added up the percentages of the ingredients and it came up short a percentage or two ( I am at home now and don't have it in front of me to be exact). Don't know if there are many different brands, I ordered mine through Crane Herb? For the benefit of the profession I don't think products of unknown content should be used. Does anyone know if it has been analyzed by HPLC or other means? Sean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2001 Report Share Posted September 10, 2001 Can you post the ingredients and percentages? Jim Ramholz , " Nashua Natural Medicine " <sean@n...> wrote: > The Yunnan Bai Yao that I have in my clinic has the ingredients listed. I > added up the percentages of the ingredients and it came up short a > percentage or two ( I am at home now and don't have it in front of me to be > exact). Don't know if there are many different brands, I ordered mine > through Crane Herb? For the benefit of the profession I don't think > products of unknown content should be used. Does anyone know if it has been > analyzed by HPLC or other means? > > > > Sean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2001 Report Share Posted September 10, 2001 .. Does anyone know if it has been analyzed by HPLC or other means? >>>It is too difficult to identify an unknown herb by HPLC alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2001 Report Share Posted September 10, 2001 Bob, > " So tell me, Mr. Flaws, did you or did you not prescribe a > Chinese patent medicine named Yunnan Bai Yao to Ms. So-and-so on > Sept. 10, 2001? If so, can you tell me the ingredients in that > medicine? If you cannot, can you explain to me why you thought or > currently do think it was/is okay to prescribe something to someone > whose ingredients you do not know? What would you say about an MD, DC, > or ND who prescribed something whose ingredients they didn't know? > Would you think they were acting responsibily, professionally, > credibly? " > Excellent point, Bob. What if the attorney were asking about yin1 and yang2? What if the attorney were asking about qi4? Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2001 Report Share Posted September 10, 2001 , " James Ramholz " <jramholz> wrote: > Can you post the ingredients and percentages? > > Jim Ramholz recent imports do include ingredient lists, but it is unclear if they are correct and there are no laws that regulate labeling in china. Bob's point is well taken. Ken's is interesting, but I think it would easier to defend the use of yinyang theory than it would be to defend using a product of unknown ingredients. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2001 Report Share Posted September 11, 2001 , @i... wrote: >recent imports do include ingredient lists, but it is unclear if they are correct and there are no laws that regulate labeling in china. No doubt that many Chinese formula labels are unreliable. Yet, I would like to compare it to other, similar formulas and test different versions of it---but without having to buy any more. > Bob's point is well taken. Ken's is interesting, but I think it would easier to defend the use of yinyang theory than it would be to defend using a product of unknown ingredients. > As we become more mainstream, this problem will affect more practitioners. I hear that throughout the nation, trial attorneys are pressuring legislatures to make sure acupuncturists have liability insurance just for such an occasion. Does anyone know of any cases of an MD already facing this problem? What defense of yinyang theory is there without scientific proof of its existence and application? Skeptic magazine labels it as metaphysical and unscientific. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2001 Report Share Posted September 11, 2001 " and there are no laws that regulate labeling in china. " yes , I know this only to well..........I knew of an Australain company importing patents and when fu zi was illegal to be put in , they just merely altered the label for Australian export , and called it dang shen. But it was OK , because the factory was GMP approved...! And the way to get that is to pay off some Beijing official .... thats why I do my own formula Heiko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2001 Report Share Posted September 11, 2001 >>>It is too difficult to identify an unknown herb by HPLC alon Alon, I know that this is true, but thought it would be nice information to have. I suppose if there is as much lot to lot variability as people say, a spot check will not be helpful. It is too bad since it is the only patent I carry. I guess I will have to remedy this and find an alternative. Sean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2001 Report Share Posted September 11, 2001 On Monday, September 10, 2001, at 11:40 PM, James Ramholz wrote: > > What defense of yinyang theory is there without scientific proof of > its existence and application? Skeptic magazine labels it as > metaphysical and unscientific. > > Try Dr. Yan's "DNA and the I Ching".or the Chinese text, Zhong guo ba gua yi xue. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2001 Report Share Posted September 11, 2001 Does anyone know of any cases of an MD already facing this problem?>>>>An MD as liability if he prescribes any non-AMA, FDA approved procedure or medicine. I know of several that have lost their licenses for just doing nutritional work Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2001 Report Share Posted September 11, 2001 I suppose if there is as much lot to lot variability as people say, a spot check will not be helpful. >>>The problem is that herbs do not have a simple print. So that it is virtually impossible to identify the ingredients Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2001 Report Share Posted September 11, 2001 Ken, I'd quote from your excellent books, both Who Can Ride the Dragon and the one on qi soon to be released, and, to be honest, I'm sure I would feel a certain amount of dismay at finding myself in such a no-win, unsatisfactory situation. Bob , yulong@m... wrote: > Bob, > > > " So tell me, Mr. Flaws, did you or did you not prescribe a > > Chinese patent medicine named Yunnan Bai Yao to Ms. So-and-so on > > Sept. 10, 2001? If so, can you tell me the ingredients in that > > medicine? If you cannot, can you explain to me why you thought or > > currently do think it was/is okay to prescribe something to someone > > whose ingredients you do not know? What would you say about an MD, > DC, > > or ND who prescribed something whose ingredients they didn't know? > > Would you think they were acting responsibily, professionally, > > credibly? " > > > Excellent point, Bob. > > What if the attorney were asking about > yin1 and yang2? > > What if the attorney were asking about qi4? > > Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2001 Report Share Posted September 11, 2001 Recently I attended a meeting in Boulder, CO with the heads of the Chinese FDA in charge of Chinese medicinals and medicines, a group of a dozen functionaries with translators in tow. One of the interesting things about that meeting is that the Chinese are trying to create standard chemical fingerprints of each herb and each composite medicine as a way of insuring standardization and quality control. For someone who knows next to nothing about chemistry, the overhead projections were impressive and encouraging. Not only is the Chinese FDA imposing GMP standards on all medicinal manufacturers, but they will be the first country to adopt GAP (Good Agricultural Procedures). They are creating standards for the growing of each of 300-500 herbs, including seed sources and lineages, geographic locations, field siting, soil chemistry, use of pesticides, fertilizers, and irrigation, harvesting methods, storage methods, methods of preparation, etc., etc. There was a list of about 20 standards that each grower of a particular herb had to meet or fall within certain parameters. Will this system be corruptible? Ren shi ren, people are people. However, at least on paper it suggests to me a high level of consciousness about the issues surrounding the standarization and quality control of Chinese medicinals and medicines. This is a potentially huge source of revenue for the PRC. So they are well motivated to try to get it right. Bob , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > I suppose if there is as much lot to lot variability as people say, a spot check will not be helpful. > >>>The problem is that herbs do not have a simple print. So that it is virtually impossible to identify the ingredients > Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2001 Report Share Posted September 11, 2001 trying to create standard chemical fingerprints of each herb and each composite medicine as a way of insuring standardization and quality control >>>It would still be close to impossible and very expensive to identify all ingredients in a complex formula Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2001 Report Share Posted September 11, 2001 Alon: What's your impression of the present standardizing around a particular component in an herb? Jim Ramholz , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > trying to create > standard chemical fingerprints of each herb and each composite > medicine as a way of insuring standardization and quality control > >>>It would still be close to impossible and very expensive to identify all ingredients in a complex formula > Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2001 Report Share Posted September 12, 2001 What's your impression of the present standardizing around a particular component in an herb >>>>It really depends on what markers are used. If some general markers are used it is probably good has the general characteristics of the herbs are maintained. If it is standardized to a particular active ingredient than we have to view this as a new approach and would not be able to use are usual differential diagnosis. This would have benefits as well as obvious disadvantages Alon - James Ramholz Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:44 PM Re: Yunnan Pay Yao Restrictions Alon:What's your impression of the present standardizing around a particular component in an herb?Jim Ramholz, <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> trying to create > standard chemical fingerprints of each herb and each composite > medicine as a way of insuring standardization and quality control> >>>It would still be close to impossible and very expensive to identify all ingredients in a complex formula> AlonChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2001 Report Share Posted September 12, 2001 >...I think it would > easier to defend the use of yinyang theory than it would be to defend > using a product of unknown ingredients. > Really? I think it would be far more troublesome to mount a convincing defence of yin1 yang2 theory. The fundamental ingredients of yin1 yang2 theory, which is the fundamental methodology employed to fashion virtually al of the other ingredients of Chinese medicine, are unknown to most courts of law. Unknown, unrecognized...if not unrecognizable, and certainly not accepted as givens. How would you go about your defence? Bob says he'd hold up our books. But I don't think a jury of your peers would be convinced by such a gesture. I think they would want to know what is your personal understanding and how did you get it. Now this is all a somewhat exaggerated hypothetical situation, but it certainly can allow us to consider the issue of how do we develop our understanding of the basic tools of our trade. For certainly as the trade grows it will experience the inevitable clashes and conflicts that necessitate the formulation of the kind of defence we're talking about. This is one of the strategic reasons why those of us who make such a stink about Chinese language learning do so: to help people strengthen their foundations...and defences of their thinking, ideas, and practices. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2001 Report Share Posted September 12, 2001 yulong wrote: > > > > >...I think it would > > easier to defend the use of yinyang theory than it would be to > defend > > using a product of unknown ingredients. > > > > > Really? I think it would be far more > troublesome to mount a convincing > defence of yin1 yang2 theory. Yin/Yang Anatomy/Physiology Yin/Yang metabolite/metabolism Yin/Yang Parasympathetic/sympathetic Yin/Yang myocardium/cardiac output Yin/Yang glands/endocrine secretions (or responses from target organs) I don't think that yin/yang would be too difficult to explain in biomedical terms, though I do agree with Bob's issues with the herbal medicines. -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2001 Report Share Posted September 12, 2001 Al, > > Yin/Yang > Anatomy/Physiology > > Yin/Yang > metabolite/metabolism > > Yin/Yang > Parasympathetic/sympathetic > > Yin/Yang > myocardium/cardiac output > > Yin/Yang > glands/endocrine secretions (or responses from target organs) > > I don't think that yin/yang would be too difficult to explain in > biomedical terms, Our hypothetical problem is to defend oneself in a legal context. You'd have to do more than just think that it would not be too difficult. You'd have to actually do it. And since I'm not aware of anyone ever having done it, I am not inclined to merely accept your assertion that it would be easy. One prevalent tendency among biomedical personnel when confronting theoretical structures such as yin1 and yang2 is to define and thereby confine them in the realm of the metaphysical. There is, of course, a whole epistemological mechanism whereby such metaphysics transform into the practical applications of Chinese medicine. And this would therefore have to be part of one's explanation/defence. So, although you and I seem to have differing assessments as to the difficulty of doing so, perhaps you can prepare the explanation you have in mind. I would love to be able to read it and I would like to publish any such explanation in CAOM. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2001 Report Share Posted September 12, 2001 Bob, The Chinese most definitely are determined to increase their share of the world herb market. Currently that share stands at around 3% for Mainland China. We have gotten involved in a research initiative that is aimed at the same target but from a somewhat different angle, namely complexity and Chinese medicine. If anyone is interested in getting involved, I've set up yet another list that can be accessed by emailing to: Complexity_and_Chinese_Medicine- We are still compiling materials that describe this initiative, but for anyone who has contemplated the confluence of complexity and Chinese medicine or who is interested in developing bi-lingual access to the Chinese medical knowledge base that is comprehensible to and consistent with both the ancient Chinese and the contemporary scientific contexts, we can certainly start the discussion now. Ken , pemachophel2001 wrote: .... > However, at least on paper it suggests to me a high level of > consciousness about the issues surrounding the standarization and > quality control of Chinese medicinals and medicines. This is a > potentially huge source of revenue for the PRC. So they are well > motivated to try to get it right. > > Bob > > , <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > > I suppose if there is as much lot to lot variability as people say, > a spot check will not be helpful. > > >>>The problem is that herbs do not have a simple print. So that it > is virtually impossible to identify the ingredients > > Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2001 Report Share Posted September 12, 2001 The fundamental ingredients of yin1 yang2theory, which is the fundamental methodologyemployed to fashion virtually al of theother ingredients of Chinese medicine,are unknown to most courts of law. >>>They are not musch more than servo systems and can be explained as such Alon - yulong Wednesday, September 12, 2001 9:23 AM Re: Yunnan Pay Yao Restrictions >...I think it would > easier to defend the use of yinyang theory than it would be to defend > using a product of unknown ingredients. > Really? I think it would be far more troublesome to mount a convincingdefence of yin1 yang2 theory.The fundamental ingredients of yin1 yang2theory, which is the fundamental methodologyemployed to fashion virtually al of theother ingredients of Chinese medicine,are unknown to most courts of law. Unknown,unrecognized...if not unrecognizable, andcertainly not accepted as givens.How would you go about your defence?Bob says he'd hold up our books. ButI don't think a jury of your peerswould be convinced by such a gesture.I think they would want to know whatis your personal understanding andhow did you get it.Now this is all a somewhat exaggeratedhypothetical situation, but it certainlycan allow us to consider the issue ofhow do we develop our understanding ofthe basic tools of our trade. For certainlyas the trade grows it will experiencethe inevitable clashes and conflictsthat necessitate the formulation ofthe kind of defence we're talking about.This is one of the strategic reasons whythose of us who make such a stink aboutChinese language learning do so: to helppeople strengthen their foundations...anddefences of their thinking, ideas, andpractices.KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2001 Report Share Posted September 12, 2001 What's your impression of the present standardizing around a particular component in an herb >>>>It really depends on what markers are used. If some general markers are used it is probably good has the general characteristics of the herbs are maintained. If it is standardized to a particular active ingredient than we have to view this as a new approach and would not be able to use are usual differential diagnosis. This would have benefits as well as obvious disadvantages Alon Alon et al, True standardization is a broader based approach to the provision of consistent product quality than just the use of chemical component analysis. A product can be standardized using consistent agricultural practices, processing protocols, warehousing practices, and dose form preparation without evaluating the consistency of chemical components in the plant material. However, if one can choose one or more chemical components that represent the major classes of chemicals in a plant material and quantify those components at appropriate stages of the supply chain management process outlined above, then one can eventually establish normal ranges of variation, and a basis for comparison of material quality that assist in the provision of a product of consistent quality. The impetus for standardization has most predominately been related to ensuring that funds devoted to clinical research on a product result in data that can be credibly associated with batches of that same product which are produced in subsequent manufacturing runs. Stephen Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Your use of is subject to the Terms of Service. The Chinese Herb Academy, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Your use of is subject to the Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2001 Report Share Posted September 12, 2001 yulong [yulong] Wednesday, September 12, 2001 10:24 AM Re: Yunnan Pay Yao Restrictions >...I think it would > easier to defend the use of yinyang theory than it would be to defend > using a product of unknown ingredients. > Really? I think it would be far more troublesome to mount a convincing defence of yin1 yang2 theory. Ken I believe you are confusing a scientific issue for a legal issue. Substantiation of yin1 yang2 theory would not likely concern a court of law. However a licensed practitioner providing a medicinal substance known to contain unlisted ingredients would very definitely raise liability and professional judgment issues that comfortably fall within the parameters of the legal system. That said, however, I and others on this list would most likely be more interested in hearing defenses of yin1 yang2 theory from any unique perspective. Stephen Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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