Guest guest Posted September 20, 2001 Report Share Posted September 20, 2001 Anyone know what the traditional formulas for anthrax in its likely presentations would be? The symptomatic descriptions I've read keep referring to " cold-like " or " flu-like " symptoms which present during the first 24 hours, go away for a day and return to rapidly destroy the lung and kill the patient. From a combination of western and homeopathic sources I compiled the following symptoms: alternating fever and chills, dullness of the head, lethargy, severe headache, a rapid pulse, foul breath, nodules in the neck, dilation of the pupils, tinnitus, belching, cold vomiting, chilled abdomen and diarrhea, labored breathing, tetanic convulsions of the upper limbs, burning sensation of the fingertips, sweating all over, eventual cyanosis, clonic spasms, exhaustion with feeling of impending doom, carbuncles and pussy abscesses, bleeding from skin, mouth and nose, dark blood with little ability to coagulate, hemoptysis, bloody dyssentery and fluid in the pleura. Western treatment is antibiotics which must be given in the first 24 hours. Gao lian jiang apparently has specific properties against the anthrax bacteria, but I am unaware of dosage or preferred mode of administration. And I don't know whether it works against pulmonary ingestion of spores as opposed to gastro-intestinal anthrax. It is warming and acrid, which may not be the overall balance we need. The Ecclectic (Felter's) treatment of anthrax was echinacea angustifolia root tincture, 1/8-1/2 ounce, every two or three hours around the clock while the system is overwhelmed with toxins. This applies to the alcohol tincture of the roots- if you can't taste it (as with a capsule), you will need much more and it will not get into your lymphatic system rapidly or as effectively. And who knows what might be needed with modern, altered anthrax? Anyway, since anthrax was already released in the terrorist attack in Tokyo (and fortunately blown out to sea), it might be a good idea to be ready with traditional formulas. Karen Vaughan CreationsGarden *************************************** Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment. All that is necessary is to accept the impossible, do without the indispensable, and bear the intolerable.-- Kathleen Norris ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2001 Report Share Posted September 20, 2001 Karen, You are right, it is time to be ready. I think Shang Han/Wen Bing models are the ticket. Here is a rough breakdown of Shang Han Lun management of the progression of anthrax. I sent this to the pulse group as well since think as many people need to be on top of this as possible. Will Tai Yang Pattern Initial flu symptoms Gui Zhi Tang - Ma Huang Tang Xiao Jie Xiong Pattern fluid in the pleura Xiao Xian Xiong Tang Shao Yang Syndrome alternating fever and chills,dullness of the head, lethargy, severe headache, tinnitus Xiao Chai Hu Tang Tai Yin Syndrome belching, cold vomiting, chilled, abdomen and diarrhea Li Zhong Wan – Fu Zi Li Zhong Wan Shao Yin Syndrome sweating all over, eventual, cyanosis, exhaustion with feeling of impending doom, Si Ni Tang Jue Yin Syndrome labored breathing, tetanic convulsions of the upper limbs, burning sensation of the fingertips, clonic spasms Wu Mei Wan – Dang Gui Si Ni San Jue Yin Blood Phase Pattern bleeding from skin, mouth and nose, dark blood with little ability to coagulate, hemoptysis, bloody dysentery Jie Du Huo Xue Tang – Xi JiaoDi Huang Tang Jue Yin Heat Patterns rapid pulse, foul breath, nodules in the neck, carbuncles and pussy abscesses, dilation of the pupils Si Ni San plus Jiang Can, GouTeng, and Bo He Bai Hu Tang Da Cheng Qi Tang In a message dated 9/20/01 2:14:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, creationsgarden writes: Anyone know what the traditional formulas for anthrax in its likely presentations would be? The symptomatic descriptions I've read keep referring to "cold-like" or "flu-like" symptoms which present during the first 24 hours, go away for a day and return to rapidly destroy the lung and kill the patient. From a combination of western and homeopathic sources I compiled the following symptoms: alternating fever and chills, dullness of the head, lethargy, severe headache, a rapid pulse, foul breath, nodules in the neck, dilation of the pupils, tinnitus, belching, cold vomiting, chilled abdomen and diarrhea, labored breathing, tetanic convulsions of the upper limbs, burning sensation of the fingertips, sweating all over, eventual cyanosis, clonic spasms, exhaustion with feeling of impending doom, carbuncles and pussy abscesses, bleeding from skin, mouth and nose, dark blood with little ability to coagulate, hemoptysis, bloody dyssentery and fluid in the pleura. Western treatment is antibiotics which must be given in the first 24 hours. Gao lian jiang apparently has specific properties against the anthrax bacteria, but I am unaware of dosage or preferred mode of administration. And I don't know whether it works against pulmonary ingestion of spores as opposed to gastro-intestinal anthrax. It is warming and acrid, which may not be the overall balance we need. The Ecclectic (Felter's) treatment of anthrax was echinacea angustifolia root tincture, 1/8-1/2 ounce, every two or three hours around the clock while the system is overwhelmed with toxins. This applies to the alcohol tincture of the roots- if you can't taste it (as with a capsule), you will need much more and it will not get into your lymphatic system rapidly or as effectively. And who knows what might be needed with modern, altered anthrax? Anyway, since anthrax was already released in the terrorist attack in Tokyo (and fortunately blown out to sea), it might be a good idea to be ready with traditional formulas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2001 Report Share Posted September 21, 2001 This morning, based on the messages about anthrax posted on this discussion list, I looked the Chinese name of that disease up in an English-Chinese medical dictionary. I then went to my pretty extensive (at least in terms of a personal) library of Chinese language Chinese medical books and journals. After several hours of rooting about, I have not found a single mention of this disease. Granted, my library is not slanted towards acute, infectious, epidemic diseases. However, neither is the training of most Western practitioners of Chinese medicine. Therefore, while I applaud peoples' concern over the possibility of a terrorist anthrax attack and the commendable patriotic desire to add the resources of our profession to our nation's response to such a disaster, I question whether or not this is a reasonable and responsible endeavor. If Chinese medicine truly had something effective to offer to the treatment of anthrax, I would think there would be mention of this in the literature. After all, the Chinese are usually very quick to point out (for propaganda reasons) anything which responds to one of their national therapies. Looking at The Merck Manual, survival (problematic at best) of pulmonary anthrax seems to depend on early Western medical diagnosis and immediate continuous intravenous therapy with massive amounts of penicillin. In our enthusiasm as converts to this medicine, are we " pissing in the wind " with this discussion? It seems a bit naive and possibly even dangerous. I'd like to hear what others on this list think. I truly hope that this is not an eventulality any of us ever have to face. However, I think this discussion might have larger ramifications about the nature and scope of our practice. BTW, recently, I heard that Marnae Ergil and Craig Mitchell are both helping treat patients in New York City involved in the destruction of the World Trade Center. I assume other practitioners from their school are also involved in this effort. Bravo for them! Bob , WMorris116@A... wrote: > Karen, > > You are right, it is time to be ready. I think Shang Han/Wen Bing models are > the ticket. Here is a rough breakdown of Shang Han Lun management of the > progression of anthrax. I sent this to the pulse group as well since think as > many people need to be on top of this as possible. > > Will > > Tai Yang Pattern > Initial flu symptoms > Gui Zhi Tang - Ma Huang Tang > > Xiao Jie Xiong Pattern > fluid in the pleura > Xiao Xian Xiong Tang > > Shao Yang Syndrome > alternating fever and chills,dullness of the head, lethargy, > severe headache, tinnitus > Xiao Chai Hu Tang > > Tai Yin Syndrome > belching, cold vomiting, chilled, abdomen and diarrhea > Li Zhong Wan †" Fu Zi Li Zhong Wan > > Shao Yin Syndrome > sweating all over, eventual, cyanosis, exhaustion with feeling of impending > doom, > Si Ni Tang > > Jue Yin Syndrome > labored breathing, tetanic convulsions of the upper > limbs, burning sensation of the fingertips, clonic spasms > Wu Mei Wan †" Dang Gui Si Ni San > > Jue Yin Blood Phase Pattern > bleeding from skin, mouth and nose, dark blood with little ability to > coagulate, hemoptysis, bloody dysentery > Jie Du Huo Xue Tang †" Xi JiaoDi Huang Tang > > Jue Yin Heat Patterns > rapid pulse, foul breath, nodules in the neck, carbuncles and pussy abscesses, > dilation of the pupils > Si Ni San plus Jiang Can, GouTeng, and Bo He > Bai Hu Tang > Da Cheng Qi Tang > > > In a message dated 9/20/01 2:14:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > creationsgarden@j... writes: > > > > Anyone know what the traditional formulas for anthrax in its likely > > presentations would be? > > > > The symptomatic descriptions I've read keep referring to " cold-like " or > > " flu-like " symptoms which present during the first 24 hours, go away for > > a day and return to rapidly destroy the lung and kill the patient. From a > > combination of western and homeopathic sources I compiled the following > > symptoms: alternating fever and chills, dullness of the head, lethargy, > > severe headache, a rapid pulse, foul breath, nodules in the neck, > > dilation of the pupils, tinnitus, belching, cold vomiting, chilled > > abdomen and diarrhea, labored breathing, tetanic convulsions of the upper > > limbs, burning sensation of the fingertips, sweating all over, eventual > > cyanosis, clonic spasms, exhaustion with feeling of impending doom, > > carbuncles and pussy abscesses, bleeding from skin, mouth and nose, dark > > blood with little ability to coagulate, hemoptysis, bloody dyssentery and > > fluid in the pleura. Western treatment is antibiotics which must be > > given in the first 24 hours. > > > > Gao lian jiang apparently has specific properties against the anthrax > > bacteria, but I am unaware of dosage or preferred mode of administration. > > And I don't know whether it works against pulmonary ingestion of spores > > as opposed to gastro-intestinal anthrax. It is warming and acrid, which > > may not be the overall balance we need. > > > > The Ecclectic (Felter's) treatment of anthrax was echinacea angustifolia > > root tincture, 1/8-1/2 ounce, every two or three hours around the clock > > while the system is overwhelmed with toxins. This applies to the alcohol > > tincture of the roots- if you can't taste it (as with a capsule), you > > will need much more and it will not get into your lymphatic system > > rapidly or as effectively. And who knows what might be needed with > > modern, altered anthrax? > > > > Anyway, since anthrax was already released in the terrorist attack in > > Tokyo (and fortunately blown out to sea), it might be a good idea to be > > ready with traditional formulas. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2001 Report Share Posted September 21, 2001 I question whether or not this is a reasonable and responsible endeavor. >>>>>This discussion is exactly what I am talking about when I resist the theoretical discussions on what TCM can be useful for. Just because we can come up with a symptom sign complexes that looks similar, this so called pattern does not mean treatment will do anything for such biological insult. This line of thinking is way too simple minded. Alon - pemachophel2001 Friday, September 21, 2001 11:01 AM Re: Anthrax This morning, based on the messages about anthrax posted on this discussion list, I looked the Chinese name of that disease up in an English-Chinese medical dictionary. I then went to my pretty extensive (at least in terms of a personal) library of Chinese language Chinese medical books and journals. After several hours of rooting about, I have not found a single mention of this disease. Granted, my library is not slanted towards acute, infectious, epidemic diseases. However, neither is the training of most Western practitioners of Chinese medicine. Therefore, while I applaud peoples' concern over the possibility of a terrorist anthrax attack and the commendable patriotic desire to add the resources of our profession to our nation's response to such a disaster, I question whether or not this is a reasonable and responsible endeavor. If Chinese medicine truly had something effective to offer to the treatment of anthrax, I would think there would be mention of this in the literature. After all, the Chinese are usually very quick to point out (for propaganda reasons) anything which responds to one of their national therapies. Looking at The Merck Manual, survival (problematic at best) of pulmonary anthrax seems to depend on early Western medical diagnosis and immediate continuous intravenous therapy with massive amounts of penicillin. In our enthusiasm as converts to this medicine, are we "pissing in the wind" with this discussion? It seems a bit naive and possibly even dangerous.I'd like to hear what others on this list think. I truly hope that this is not an eventulality any of us ever have to face. However, I think this discussion might have larger ramifications about the nature and scope of our practice.BTW, recently, I heard that Marnae Ergil and Craig Mitchell are both helping treat patients in New York City involved in the destruction of the World Trade Center. I assume other practitioners from their school are also involved in this effort. Bravo for them!Bob, WMorris116@A... wrote:> Karen,> > You are right, it is time to be ready. I think Shang Han/Wen Bing models are > the ticket. Here is a rough breakdown of Shang Han Lun management of the > progression of anthrax. I sent this to the pulse group as well since think as > many people need to be on top of this as possible.> > Will> > Tai Yang Pattern> Initial flu symptoms> Gui Zhi Tang - Ma Huang Tang> > Xiao Jie Xiong Pattern> fluid in the pleura> Xiao Xian Xiong Tang > > Shao Yang Syndrome> alternating fever and chills,dullness of the head, lethargy,> severe headache, tinnitus> Xiao Chai Hu Tang > > Tai Yin Syndrome> belching, cold vomiting, chilled, abdomen and diarrhea> Li Zhong Wan â€" Fu Zi Li Zhong Wan > > Shao Yin Syndrome> sweating all over, eventual, cyanosis, exhaustion with feeling of impending > doom,> Si Ni Tang > > Jue Yin Syndrome> labored breathing, tetanic convulsions of the upper> limbs, burning sensation of the fingertips, clonic spasms> Wu Mei Wan â€" Dang Gui Si Ni San > > Jue Yin Blood Phase Pattern> bleeding from skin, mouth and nose, dark blood with little ability to > coagulate, hemoptysis, bloody dysentery> Jie Du Huo Xue Tang â€" Xi JiaoDi Huang Tang> > Jue Yin Heat Patterns > rapid pulse, foul breath, nodules in the neck, carbuncles and pussy abscesses,> dilation of the pupils> Si Ni San plus Jiang Can, GouTeng, and Bo He > Bai Hu Tang> Da Cheng Qi Tang > > > In a message dated 9/20/01 2:14:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > creationsgarden@j... writes:> > > > Anyone know what the traditional formulas for anthrax in its likely> > presentations would be?> > > > The symptomatic descriptions I've read keep referring to "cold-like" or> > "flu-like" symptoms which present during the first 24 hours, go away for> > a day and return to rapidly destroy the lung and kill the patient. From a> > combination of western and homeopathic sources I compiled the following> > symptoms: alternating fever and chills, dullness of the head, lethargy,> > severe headache, a rapid pulse, foul breath, nodules in the neck,> > dilation of the pupils, tinnitus, belching, cold vomiting, chilled> > abdomen and diarrhea, labored breathing, tetanic convulsions of the upper> > limbs, burning sensation of the fingertips, sweating all over, eventual> > cyanosis, clonic spasms, exhaustion with feeling of impending doom,> > carbuncles and pussy abscesses, bleeding from skin, mouth and nose, dark> > blood with little ability to coagulate, hemoptysis, bloody dyssentery and> > fluid in the pleura. Western treatment is antibiotics which must be> > given in the first 24 hours. > > > > Gao lian jiang apparently has specific properties against the anthrax> > bacteria, but I am unaware of dosage or preferred mode of administration.> > And I don't know whether it works against pulmonary ingestion of spores> > as opposed to gastro-intestinal anthrax. It is warming and acrid, which> > may not be the overall balance we need.> > > > The Ecclectic (Felter's) treatment of anthrax was echinacea angustifolia> > root tincture, 1/8-1/2 ounce, every two or three hours around the clock> > while the system is overwhelmed with toxins. This applies to the alcohol> > tincture of the roots- if you can't taste it (as with a capsule), you> > will need much more and it will not get into your lymphatic system> > rapidly or as effectively. And who knows what might be needed with> > modern, altered anthrax?> > > > Anyway, since anthrax was already released in the terrorist attack in> > Tokyo (and fortunately blown out to sea), it might be a good idea to be> > ready with traditional formulas.> >Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2001 Report Share Posted September 21, 2001 In a message dated 9/21/01 4:32:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time, zrosenbe writes: Will, This is interesting, and I appreciate the work you've done here. . .. but am I correct in thinking that this is your take on SHL in the management of anthrax? This is my take of Shang Han Lun based on pattern discrimination including features my teacher Yang Maiqing used. Notably....he associates central nervous system involvement for the Jue Yin and cardiovascular involvement for the Shao Yin. There are a few issues here. Does lack of written discourse (current or historical) on a current disease preclude our use of Chinese medicine? I say no. Anthrax is a critical disease process with a likely outcome of death if contracted through the respiratory tract. Would I rely on the use of herbs alone? Definitely not. Would I use them in combination with the appropriate drugs? Maybe. The breakdown served a few purposes. One, we should understand these biological warfare issues and analyze them regardless of Chinese language source material. Shang Han Lun and Wen Bing are appropriate models for such analysis....I merely provided an example of such. Two, the example shows a single disease entity spread over a large area of the SHL model. I am unaware of the SHL dealing with this particular disease, and while many of these prescriptions may be applicable in an epidemic of this type, you probably should, for the record state that this protocol is one you have proposed yourself without clinical trial. You are correct....I have performed no studies, however there are studies performed treating the patterns described under each section. What is also interesting is that the wen bing pai/warm disease school largely developed because of the inability of the SHL school to effectively treat warm epidemic diseases. Therefore, while I would personally be open to the application of SHL theory in such epidemics, we would also need to access warm disease literature as well. This, of course, is still largely untranslated. The use of Wen Bing is also considered by some to be a simplified version of SHL analysis. I know practitioners who still use Shang Han Za Bing Lun exclusively for the management of life threatening epidemic diseases. The thought is even warm conditions begin with wind and cold. To sum up, this categorization of progression of anthrax is an interesting application of the SHL text, but there is no clinical record that I know of in China to back it up. If presented in this way, no problem. If not, Bob Flaws is correct, it could be troublesome for the profession. This discussion is important and is primarily used to emphasize the need to differentiate the syndrome. Whether it works or not is theoretical. Alon has a good point. However, I think it is critical to pursue the question. I apologize if it was perceived as an answer. Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2001 Report Share Posted September 21, 2001 on 9/21/01 2:51 PM, Alon Marcus at alonmarcus wrote: I question whether or not this is a reasonable and responsible endeavor. >>>>>This discussion is exactly what I am talking about when I resist the theoretical discussions on what TCM can be useful for. Just because we can come up with a symptom sign complexes that looks similar, this so called pattern does not mean treatment will do anything for such biological insult. This line of thinking is way too simple minded. Alon this type of speculation may not be all folly. I have read studies this year that berberine isolates reduce drug resistance in TB patients. we may find that herbs are hugely important in this day and age of antibiotic resistance and threatened chemical warfare. It may be our efforts that determine survival. I think we should keep thinking about this issue! In peace -- Cara O. Frank, R.Ac herbbabe China Herb Company Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2001 Report Share Posted September 21, 2001 This interesting discussion led me to one of my own texts in my library, a thesis by Marta Hansen titled "Inventing a Tradition in ", about the development of the wen bing pai/warm disease school. Marta has two appendices with county records from the 16th and 17th century on incidences of major epidemics. Some are described in more detail than others. There is mention of da tou wen/massive head scourge, zhong xiang/swollen neck. hou bi/throat impediment, ge dan bing/boil disorder and, interestingly, yang mao wen/sheep's wool warm epidemic (said to be caused by the growth of a certain mold out of fruits and vegetables). It is clear from this text and other sources that the warm disease school developed largely out of a crisis situation of new epidemics in this era. I think a lot of this material is valuable. I haven't found indications of anthrax so far, but I wouldn't rule out that the Chinese had to deal with it at some point in that vast country over its long history. What is clear is that there are no English language sources, so that any discussion, as Bob points out, will be speculative. This doesn't mean, in my opinion, that it shouldn't be done, but that it would be honest to state that it is a speculative discussion. This type of boundary, I think would protect us from scrutiny from public sources. We are still at an early stage of development in our profession, so on one hand we shouldn't rule out our ability to contribute to the treatment of epidemic evils, on the other hand we shouldn't pretend at this point that we have the tools to do all and everything in this area. The jury is still out. On Friday, September 21, 2001, at 11:01 AM, pemachophel2001 wrote: > This morning, based on the messages about anthrax posted on this > discussion list, I looked the Chinese name of that disease up in an > English-Chinese medical dictionary. I then went to my pretty extensive > (at least in terms of a personal) library of Chinese language Chinese > medical books and journals. After several hours of rooting about, I > have not found a single mention of this disease. Granted, my library > is not slanted towards acute, infectious, epidemic diseases. However, > neither is the training of most Western practitioners of Chinese > medicine. Therefore, while I applaud peoples' concern over the > possibility of a terrorist anthrax attack and the commendable > patriotic desire to add the resources of our profession to our > nation's response to such a disaster, I question whether or not this > is a reasonable and responsible endeavor. > > If Chinese medicine truly had something effective to offer to the > treatment of anthrax, I would think there would be mention of this in > the literature. After all, the Chinese are usually very quick to point > out (for propaganda reasons) anything which responds to one of their > national therapies. Looking at The Merck Manual, survival (problematic > at best) of pulmonary anthrax seems to depend on early Western medical > diagnosis and immediate continuous intravenous therapy with massive > amounts of penicillin. In our enthusiasm as converts to this medicine, > are we "pissing in the wind" with this discussion? It seems a bit > naive and possibly even dangerous. > > I'd like to hear what others on this list think. I truly hope that > this is not an eventulality any of us ever have to face. However, I > think this discussion might have larger ramifications about the nature > and scope of our practice. > > > Bob > > > , WMorris116@A... wrote: > > Karen, > > > > > You are right, it is time to be ready. I think Shang Han/Wen Bing > models are > > the ticket. Here is a rough breakdown of Shang Han Lun management of > the > > progression of anthrax. I sent this to the pulse group as well since > think as > > many people need to be on top of this as possible. > > > > > Will > > > > > Tai Yang Pattern > > Initial flu symptoms > > Gui Zhi Tang - Ma Huang Tang > > > > > Xiao Jie Xiong Pattern > > fluid in the pleura > > Xiao Xian Xiong Tang > > > > > Shao Yang Syndrome > > alternating fever and chills,dullness of the head, lethargy, > > severe headache, tinnitus > > Xiao Chai Hu Tang > > > > > Tai Yin Syndrome > > belching, cold vomiting, chilled, abdomen and diarrhea > > Li Zhong Wan â€" Fu Zi Li Zhong Wan > > > > > Shao Yin Syndrome > > sweating all over, eventual, cyanosis, exhaustion with feeling of > impending > > doom, > > Si Ni Tang > > > > > Jue Yin Syndrome > > labored breathing, tetanic convulsions of the upper > > limbs, burning sensation of the fingertips, clonic spasms > > Wu Mei Wan â€" Dang Gui Si Ni San > > > > > Jue Yin Blood Phase Pattern > > bleeding from skin, mouth and nose, dark blood with little ability > to > > coagulate, hemoptysis, bloody dysentery > > Jie Du Huo Xue Tang â€" Xi JiaoDi Huang Tang > > > > > Jue Yin Heat Patterns > > rapid pulse, foul breath, nodules in the neck, carbuncles and pussy > abscesses, > > dilation of the pupils > > Si Ni San plus Jiang Can, GouTeng, and Bo He > > Bai Hu Tang > > Da Cheng Qi Tang > > > > > > > > In a message dated 9/20/01 2:14:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > > creationsgarden@j... writes: > > > > > > > > > Anyone know what the traditional formulas for anthrax in its > likely > > > presentations would be? > > > > > > The symptomatic descriptions I've read keep referring to > "cold-like" or > > > "flu-like" symptoms which present during the first 24 hours, go > away for > > > a day and return to rapidly destroy the lung and kill the patient. > From a > > > combination of western and homeopathic sources I compiled the > following > > > symptoms: alternating fever and chills, dullness of the head, > lethargy, > > > severe headache, a rapid pulse, foul breath, nodules in the neck, > > > dilation of the pupils, tinnitus, belching, cold vomiting, chilled > > > abdomen and diarrhea, labored breathing, tetanic convulsions of > the upper > > > limbs, burning sensation of the fingertips, sweating all over, > eventual > > > cyanosis, clonic spasms, exhaustion with feeling of impending > doom, > > > carbuncles and pussy abscesses, bleeding from skin, mouth and > nose, dark > > > blood with little ability to coagulate, hemoptysis, bloody > dyssentery and > > > fluid in the pleura. Western treatment is antibiotics which must > be > > > given in the first 24 hours. > > > > > > Gao lian jiang apparently has specific properties against the > anthrax > > > bacteria, but I am unaware of dosage or preferred mode of > administration. > > > And I don't know whether it works against pulmonary ingestion of > spores > > > as opposed to gastro-intestinal anthrax. It is warming and acrid, > which > > > may not be the overall balance we need. > > > > > > The Ecclectic (Felter's) treatment of anthrax was echinacea > angustifolia > > > root tincture, 1/8-1/2 ounce, every two or three hours around the > clock > > > while the system is overwhelmed with toxins. This applies to the > alcohol > > > tincture of the roots- if you can't taste it (as with a capsule), > you > > > will need much more and it will not get into your lymphatic system > > > rapidly or as effectively. And who knows what might be needed > with > > > modern, altered anthrax? > > > > > > Anyway, since anthrax was already released in the terrorist attack > in > > > Tokyo (and fortunately blown out to sea), it might be a good idea > to be > > > ready with traditional formulas. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2001 Report Share Posted September 21, 2001 Will, This is interesting, and I appreciate the work you've done here. . . but am I correct in thinking that this is your take on SHL in the management of anthrax? I am unaware of the SHL dealing with this particular disease, and while many of these prescriptions may be applicable in an epidemic of this type, you probably should, for the record state that this protocol is one you have proposed yourself without clinical trial. What is also interesting is that the wen bing pai/warm disease school largely developed because of the inability of the SHL school to effectively treat warm epidemic diseases. Therefore, while I would personally be open to the application of SHL theory in such epidemics, we would also need to access warm disease literature as well. This, of course, is still largely untranslated. To sum up, this categorization of progression of anthrax is an interesting application of the SHL text, but there is no clinical record that I know of in China to back it up. If presented in this way, no problem. If not, Bob Flaws is correct, it could be troublesome for the profession. On Friday, September 21, 2001, at 02:08 AM, WMorris116 (AT) AOL (DOT) COM wrote: > Karen, > > You are right, it is time to be ready. I think Shang Han/Wen Bing models are the ticket. Here is a rough breakdown of Shang Han Lun management of the progression of anthrax. I sent this to the pulse group as well since think as many people need to be on top of this as possible. > > Will > > Tai Yang Pattern > Initial flu symptoms > Gui Zhi Tang - Ma Huang Tang > > Xiao Jie Xiong Pattern > fluid in the pleura > Xiao Xian Xiong Tang > > Shao Yang Syndrome > alternating fever and chills,dullness of the head, lethargy, > severe headache, tinnitus > Xiao Chai Hu Tang > > Tai Yin Syndrome > belching, cold vomiting, chilled, abdomen and diarrhea > Li Zhong Wan – Fu Zi Li Zhong Wan > > Shao Yin Syndrome > sweating all over, eventual, cyanosis, exhaustion with feeling of impending doom, > Si Ni Tang > > Jue Yin Syndrome > labored breathing, tetanic convulsions of the upper > limbs, burning sensation of the fingertips, clonic spasms > Wu Mei Wan – Dang Gui Si Ni San > > Jue Yin Blood Phase Pattern > bleeding from skin, mouth and nose, dark blood with little ability to coagulate, hemoptysis, bloody dysentery > Jie Du Huo Xue Tang – Xi JiaoDi Huang Tang > > Jue Yin Heat Patterns > rapid pulse, foul breath, nodules in the neck, carbuncles and pussy abscesses, > dilation of the pupils > Si Ni San plus Jiang Can, GouTeng, and Bo He > Bai Hu Tang > Da Cheng Qi Tang > > > In a message dated 9/20/01 2:14:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, creationsgarden (AT) juno (DOT) com writes: > > > Anyone know what the traditional formulas for anthrax in its likely > presentations would be? > > The symptomatic descriptions I've read keep referring to "cold-like" or > "flu-like" symptoms which present during the first 24 hours, go away for > a day and return to rapidly destroy the lung and kill the patient. From a > combination of western and homeopathic sources I compiled the following > symptoms: alternating fever and chills, dullness of the head, lethargy, > severe headache, a rapid pulse, foul breath, nodules in the neck, > dilation of the pupils, tinnitus, belching, cold vomiting, chilled > abdomen and diarrhea, labored breathing, tetanic convulsions of the upper > limbs, burning sensation of the fingertips, sweating all over, eventual > cyanosis, clonic spasms, exhaustion with feeling of impending doom, > carbuncles and pussy abscesses, bleeding from skin, mouth and nose, dark > blood with little ability to coagulate, hemoptysis, bloody dyssentery and > fluid in the pleura. Western treatment is antibiotics which must be > given in the first 24 hours. > > Gao lian jiang apparently has specific properties against the anthrax > bacteria, but I am unaware of dosage or preferred mode of administration. > And I don't know whether it works against pulmonary ingestion of spores > as opposed to gastro-intestinal anthrax. It is warming and acrid, which > may not be the overall balance we need. > > The Ecclectic (Felter's) treatment of anthrax was echinacea angustifolia > root tincture, 1/8-1/2 ounce, every two or three hours around the clock > while the system is overwhelmed with toxins. This applies to the alcohol > tincture of the roots- if you can't taste it (as with a capsule), you > will need much more and it will not get into your lymphatic system > rapidly or as effectively. And who knows what might be needed with > modern, altered anthrax? > > Anyway, since anthrax was already released in the terrorist attack in > Tokyo (and fortunately blown out to sea), it might be a good idea to be > ready with traditional formulas. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2001 Report Share Posted September 21, 2001 Interesting discussion. Let's not forget that we are also citizens of a rapidly changing world. While we ponder what our response might be to an act of biological warfare, we should also contemplate the application of even more fundamental theories that constitute the foundations of the practice of Chinese medicine. I'm thinking paraticularly of the passage from the Treatise on Harmony with the Seasons from Su4 Wen4 that admonishes that ruling the rebellious and treating the ill can be likened to the conduct of those who only start to forge weapons after they are on the battlefield. We seem to be on the battlefield. Ken , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > Will, > This is interesting, and I appreciate the work you've done here. . . > but am I correct in thinking that this is your take on SHL in the > management of anthrax? I am unaware of the SHL dealing with this > particular disease, and while many of these prescriptions may be > applicable in an epidemic of this type, you probably should, for the > record state that this protocol is one you have proposed yourself > without clinical trial. > > What is also interesting is that the wen bing pai/warm disease school > largely developed because of the inability of the SHL school to > effectively treat warm epidemic diseases. Therefore, while I would > personally be open to the application of SHL theory in such epidemics, > we would also need to access warm disease literature as well. This, of > course, is still largely untranslated. > > To sum up, this categorization of progression of anthrax is an > interesting application of the SHL text, but there is no clinical record > that I know of in China to back it up. If presented in this way, no > problem. If not, Bob Flaws is correct, it could be troublesome for the > profession. > > > On Friday, September 21, 2001, at 02:08 AM, WMorris116@A... wrote: > > > Karen, > > > > You are right, it is time to be ready. I think Shang Han/Wen Bing > > models are the ticket. Here is a rough breakdown of Shang Han Lun > > management of the progression of anthrax. I sent this to the pulse > > group as well since think as many people need to be on top of this as > > possible. > > > > Will > > > > Tai Yang Pattern > > Initial flu symptoms > > Gui Zhi Tang - Ma Huang Tang > > > > Xiao Jie Xiong Pattern > > fluid in the pleura > > Xiao Xian Xiong Tang > > > > Shao Yang Syndrome > > alternating fever and chills,dullness of the head, lethargy, > > severe headache, tinnitus > > Xiao Chai Hu Tang ?> > > > Tai Yin Syndrome > > belching, cold vomiting, chilled, abdomen and diarrhea > > Li Zhong Wan ?Fu Zi Li Zhong Wan > > > > Shao Yin Syndrome > > sweating all over, eventual, cyanosis, exhaustion with feeling of > > impending doom, > > Si Ni Tang > > > > Jue Yin Syndrome > > labored breathing, tetanic convulsions of the upper > > limbs, burning sensation of the fingertips, clonic spasms > > Wu Mei Wan ?Dang Gui Si Ni San > > > > Jue Yin Blood Phase Pattern > > bleeding from skin, mouth and nose, dark blood with little ability to > > coagulate, hemoptysis, bloody dysentery > > Jie Du Huo Xue Tang ?Xi JiaoDi Huang Tang > > > > Jue Yin Heat Patterns > > rapid pulse, foul breath, nodules in the neck, carbuncles and pussy > > abscesses, > > dilation of the pupils > > Si Ni San plus Jiang Can, GouTeng, and Bo He > > Bai Hu Tang > > Da Cheng Qi Tang > > > > > > In a message dated 9/20/01 2:14:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > > creationsgarden@j... writes: > > > > > > Anyone know what the traditional formulas for anthrax in its likely > > presentations would be? > > > > The symptomatic descriptions I've read keep referring to " cold- like " or > > " flu-like " symptoms which present during the first 24 hours, go away for > > a day and return to rapidly destroy the lung and kill the patient. > > From a > > combination of western and homeopathic sources I compiled the following > > symptoms: alternating fever and chills, dullness of the head, lethargy, > > severe headache, a rapid pulse, foul breath, nodules in the neck, > > dilation of the pupils, tinnitus, belching, cold vomiting, chilled > > abdomen and diarrhea, labored breathing, tetanic convulsions of the > > upper > > limbs, burning sensation of the fingertips, sweating all over, eventual > > cyanosis, clonic spasms, exhaustion with feeling of impending doom, > > carbuncles and pussy abscesses, bleeding from skin, mouth and nose, dark > > blood with little ability to coagulate, hemoptysis, bloody dyssentery > > and > > fluid in the pleura. Western treatment is antibiotics which must be > > given in the first 24 hours. ?> > > > Gao lian jiang apparently has specific properties against the anthrax > > bacteria, but I am unaware of dosage or preferred mode of > > administration. > > And I don't know whether it works against pulmonary ingestion of spores > > as opposed to gastro-intestinal anthrax. It is warming and acrid, which > > may not be the overall balance we need. > > ?> > The Ecclectic (Felter's) treatment of anthrax was echinacea angustifolia > > root tincture, 1/8-1/2 ounce, every two or three hours around the clock > > while the system is overwhelmed with toxins. This applies to the > > alcohol > > tincture of the roots- if you can't taste it (as with a capsule), you > > will need much more and it will not get into your lymphatic system > > rapidly or as effectively. And who knows what might be needed with > > modern, altered anthrax? > > > > Anyway, since anthrax was already released in the terrorist attack in > > Tokyo (and fortunately blown out to sea), it might be a good idea to be > > ready with traditional formulas. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <Attachment missing> > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > > education. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2001 Report Share Posted September 21, 2001 this type of speculation may not be all folly. I have read studies this year that berberine isolates reduce drug resistance in TB patients. we may find that herbs are hugely important in this day and age of antibiotic resistance and threatened chemical warfare. It may be our efforts that determine survival. I think we should keep thinking about this issue >>>If we research and find that is great. But to come up with treatments based on theoretical symptom signs is something else Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2001 Report Share Posted September 21, 2001 , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > To sum up, this categorization of progression of anthrax is an > interesting application of the SHL text, but there is no clinical record that I know of in China to back it up. If presented in this way, no problem. If not, Bob Flaws is correct, it could be troublesome for the profession. Z'ev: Too late. If you do a Google search with " anthrax chinese herbs " you'll find a number of formulas and companies that claim effectiveness of some sort against anthrax---which may or may not be the case in vitro. But I haven't yet seen any real scientific research claiming any herb or one of its components can kill the bacteria before it enters and destroys a cell. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2001 Report Share Posted September 22, 2001 If there were a terrorist attack with anthrax, the run on antibiotics would be incredible. No large city has enough penicillin stockpiled to protect the majority of its population. Emergency rooms were slow, poorly staffed and understocked before the terrorists attacked here- immagine if a few million people needed antibiotics within 24 hours. Existing antibiotic stores would likely run out in very short order. Short of stockpiling moldy bread, I think it behooves us to find some herbal alternatives. Karen Vaughan CreationsGarden *************************************** Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment. All that is necessary is to accept the impossible, do without the indispensable, and bear the intolerable.-- Kathleen Norris ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2001 Report Share Posted September 23, 2001 Short of stockpiling moldy bread, I think it behooves us to find someherbal alternatives >>>how do you suggest we go about it Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2001 Report Share Posted September 24, 2001 Will: I couldn't find any anthrax articles on Medline associated with Chinese herbs. Perhaps someone else has had better luck searching the literature. The herbal formulas must have something in them to destroy the bacteria or stimulate the immune system to do so. Do you know offhand if there are there any herbs in the SHL or other formulas that would kill the bacteria in the blood before it can enter and destroy a cell? While all the S/S are the branches, the root should be considered the spores converting to bacteria in the blood and lymph. Jim Ramholz , WMorris116@A... wrote: > In a message dated 9/21/01 4:32:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > zrosenbe@s... writes: > > > > Will, > > > > This is interesting, and I appreciate the work you've done here. . > > . but am I correct in thinking that this is your take on SHL in the > > management of anthrax? > > This is my take of Shang Han Lun based on pattern discrimination including > features my teacher Yang Maiqing used. Notably....he associates central > nervous system involvement for the Jue Yin and cardiovascular involvement for > the Shao Yin. > > There are a few issues here. Does lack of written discourse (current or > historical) on a current disease preclude our use of Chinese medicine? I say > no. > > Anthrax is a critical disease process with a likely outcome of death if > contracted through the respiratory tract. Would I rely on the use of herbs > alone? Definitely not. Would I use them in combination with the appropriate > drugs? Maybe. > > The breakdown served a few purposes. One, we should understand these > biological warfare issues and analyze them regardless of Chinese language > source material. Shang Han Lun and Wen Bing are appropriate models for such > analysis....I merely provided an example of such. Two, the example shows a > single disease entity spread over a large area of the SHL model. > > > > am unaware of the SHL dealing with this > > particular disease, and while many of these prescriptions may be > > applicable in an epidemic of this type, you probably should, for the > > record state that this protocol is one you have proposed yourself > > without clinical trial. > > > > You are correct....I have performed no studies, however there are studies > performed treating the patterns described under each section. > > > > > What is also interesting is that the wen bing pai/warm disease > > school largely developed because of the inability of the SHL school to > > effectively treat warm epidemic diseases. Therefore, while I would > > personally be open to the application of SHL theory in such epidemics, > > we would also need to access warm disease literature as well. This, > > of course, is still largely untranslated. > > > > The use of Wen Bing is also considered by some to be a simplified version of > SHL analysis. I know practitioners who still use Shang Han Za Bing Lun > exclusively for the management of life threatening epidemic diseases. The > thought is even warm conditions begin with wind and cold. > > > > > To sum up, this categorization of progression of anthrax is an > > interesting application of the SHL text, but there is no clinical > > record that I know of in China to back it up. If presented in this > > way, no problem. If not, Bob Flaws is correct, it could be > > troublesome for the profession. > > > > This discussion is important and is primarily used to emphasize the need to > differentiate the syndrome. Whether it works or not is theoretical. Alon has > a good point. However, I think it is critical to pursue the question. I > apologize if it was perceived as an answer. > > Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2001 Report Share Posted September 26, 2001 Here is a neutral Yin tonic that usually does not cause spleen problems. This is a basic formula for Liver Yin but with little adjustments it can be applied to other organs. It comes from the Yang femaliy tradition a Dr I spent time with in china. His wife is in CA and i think she has been teaching. Suan Zao Ren 12g, Fuling 12g, Mai Ya 12 (if K weak than Gu Ya), Moot lay fa (sorry I do not know mandarin it Jasmin flower) 6g, Tu Si Zi 9g, Gou Qi Zi 9g, Zi Mu 5g, Rui Ren Yo 9g, Lian Xu 3g Gan cao 5g, Bian Dou Hua 6g, Xiao wei chai 6g (i dont know the mandarin it like a small Shi Hu) - WMorris116 Cc: pulsediagnosis Friday, September 21, 2001 2:08 AM Re: Anthrax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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