Generating fluids/Academic Dean search

[Guest guest]

Dear Group: what is the best way to explain how an herb can generate fluids,

yet not cause dampness? I was teaching yin tonics this week, and I was asked

that. Some of my ideas were that yin tonics can strengthen organs whose job

it is to transform dampness, separating clear from turbid; also that

fluids/yin in the body as natural substances are not the same as dampness,

which is a pathological process. Any ideas? Any particularly good passages

from texts?

 

Also, Yo San University in Marina del Rey, California, is formally searching

for a new Academic Dean, as I will be resigning at the end of this year. If

anyone has interest of knows suitable candidates, please contact me.

 

Julie Chambers

[Guest guest]

on 9/21/01 10:15 PM, juliej8 at juliej8 wrote:

 

> Dear Group: what is the best way to explain how an herb can generate fluids,

> yet not cause dampness? I was teaching yin tonics this week, and I was asked

> that. Some of my ideas were that yin tonics can strengthen organs whose job

> it is to transform dampness, separating clear from turbid; also that

> fluids/yin in the body as natural substances are not the same as dampness,

> which is a pathological process. Any ideas? Any particularly good passages

> from texts?

>

Julie, some brief thoughts:

having moisture in the body is not the same as having dampness, which is a

pathological phenomenon. In fact, I rarely encounter any Sp. problems with

the majority of Yin tonics, with the exception of rehmannia, which is really

hard to digest. I think the stomach and all the yang organs respond really

well to a cooling, moistening influence. I've become bolder and bolder in my

use of this family of herbs. Some yin tonics moisten by thinning mucus

secretions- mucolytic expectorants for instance, such as gua lou, bei mu or

sha shen. many of the yin tonics are sweet in nature. all the white ones

especially. and yes- some yin tonics do strengthen the Sp. qi, such as tai

zi shen or xi yang shen. even huang jing has this effect.

 

--

Cara O. Frank, R.Ac

herbbabe

China Herb Company

[Guest guest]

I've become bolder and bolder in myuse of this family of herbs.

>>>I have as well and seen many patient with strong symptoms and signs of dampness together with chronic heat that have done best on neutral yin tonics

Alon

[Guest guest]

Cara Frank wrote:

 

> Julie, some brief thoughts:

> having moisture in the body is not the same as having dampness, which is a

> pathological phenomenon.

 

Follow up question?

 

Thank you.

 

What is the difference between Yin tonics and " herbs that generate fluids " ?

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

[Guest guest]

>At 10:29 AM -0700 9/22/01, Al Stone wrote:

>What is the difference between Yin tonics and " herbs that generate fluids " ?

--

 

There are herbs from other categories that do not nurture yin, yet do

generate fluids (lu gen comes to mind). Dryness can be caused by

acute heat diseases for example,in patients who are not yin

deficient. Moreover, although some of the yin tonics do have the

function of moistening, but some do not. Based on this I would

conclude that although fluids are relatively yin, there is more to

yin than fluids. Fluids are damaged by heat, but choosing yin tonics

in acute heat conditions, and in the absence of yin vacuity, might

cause other problems.

 

Rory

[Guest guest]

I think you got it right, Julie.

 

Yin supplementing medicinals shouldn't generate dampness, which is a pathogen, if correctly indicated by pattern, which is yin xu in this case. Generally, damage to qi transformation, as you mention, separating clear from turbid is the main problem with yin supplementing herbs.

 

 

On Friday, September 21, 2001, at 07:15 PM, juliej8 (AT) aol (DOT) com wrote:

 

 

> Dear Group: what is the best way to explain how an herb can generate fluids,

> yet not cause dampness? I was teaching yin tonics this week, and I was asked

> that. Some of my ideas were that yin tonics can strengthen organs whose job

> it is to transform dampness, separating clear from turbid; also that

> fluids/yin in the body as natural substances are not the same as dampness,

> which is a pathological process. Any ideas? Any particularly good passages

> from texts?

>

> Also, Yo San University in Marina del Rey, California, is formally searching

> for a new Academic Dean, as I will be resigning at the end of this year. If

> anyone has interest of knows suitable candidates, please contact me.

>

> Julie Chambers

>

>

 

 

[Guest guest]

Cara said

.. " In fact, I rarely encounter any Sp. problems with

the majority of Yin tonics, with the exception of rehmannia, which is

really

hard to digest. "

 

I can't agree there..........I encounter bloating, loose stools,

appatite loss commonly with sha shen, yu zhu, mai dong, tian dong, huang

jing etc

I have learnt to pay carefull atention to Benskys contraindications.

 

Heiko

[Guest guest]

on 9/22/01 1:29 PM, Al Stone at alstone wrote:

 

>

>

> Cara Frank wrote:

>

>> Julie, some brief thoughts:

>> having moisture in the body is not the same as having dampness, which is a

>> pathological phenomenon.

>

> Follow up question?

>

> Thank you.

>

> What is the difference between Yin tonics and " herbs that generate fluids " ?

 

that's why dryness and yin def are two separate categories. dryness is a

form of yin deficiency, but may or may not include s and s of empty heat.

dryness is not as deep. we think of the lungs as dry, not the kidneys. We

also don't usually think of the yang organs as being yin def ( except for

the Stomach) . but they are routinly affected by dryness. A dry cough can

be caused by pathogenic dryness, but if accompanied by night sweats, nervous

exhaustion, etc, then we have yin deficiency.

 

Yin tonics are deeper restoratives. Yin deficiency doesn't always involve

dryness. (just as yang tonics are a deeper restorative than qi tonics). In

treatment, there is often overlap. Zhi mu generates fluids and is used as a

yin tonic.

 

It's also interesting to compare zuo gui yin and wan w/ liu wei di huang

wan. the former nourishes the yin, the latter also clears heat, strengthens

the spleen.

--

Cara O. Frank, R.Ac

herbbabe

China Herb Company

[Guest guest]

on 9/23/01 2:15 AM, Heiko Lade at heiko wrote:

 

> Cara said

> . " In fact, I rarely encounter any Sp. problems with

> the majority of Yin tonics, with the exception of rehmannia, which is

> really

> hard to digest. "

>

> I can't agree there..........I encounter bloating, loose stools,

> appatite loss commonly with sha shen, yu zhu, mai dong, tian dong, huang

> jing etc

> I have learnt to pay carefull atention to Benskys contraindications.

>

> Heiko

 

 

then there must have been Sp insufficiency that was overlooked in the

original prescription when it was written. I think it is my habit to

routinely add a sp qi tonic or an herb to regulate the qi in a formula that

could be cloying.

>

 

--

Cara O. Frank, R.Ac

herbbabe

China Herb Company

[Guest guest]

I can't agree there..........I encounter bloating, loose stools,appatite loss commonly with sha shen, yu zhu, mai dong, tian dong, huangjing etcI have learnt to pay carefull atention to Benskys contraindications.>>>>It often a question of dosage as well as indications. If one has problems with sp then you definitely need to pay attention

Alon

[Guest guest]

I think it is my habit toroutinely add a sp qi tonic or an herb to regulate the qi in a formula thatcould be cloying. > >>>Unless the patient is sp def I think a little sha ren of ban xia is usually adequate.

Alon

[Guest guest]

Cara wrote " then there must have been Sp insufficiency that was

overlooked in the

original prescription when it was written. I think it is my habit to

routinely add a sp qi tonic or an herb to regulate the qi in a formula

that

could be cloying. "

 

But then I find that adding spleen tonics starts to aggravete the yin xu

and cause and cause heat s and s , flushing , thirst, pimples etc

 

The patients present as yin xu in terms of symptoms, tongue etc , the

yin tonics cause spleen aggravations........the spleen tonics if added

cause heat.......

 

Heiko

>

[Guest guest]

Alon

wrote>>>>It often a question of dosage as well as indications. If one

has problems with sp then you definitely need to pay attention

 

Alon I find even the smallest doses of yin tonics will aggravate , eg

one sixth the normal dose if I use granulated powders, and very small

amounts of spleen tonics will generate heat in a yin xu person. I find a

combination of yin xu and spleen xu commonly in clinic and difficult to

manage. I have tried the theory of using acupuncture to improve spleen

and herbs for yin xu .......but I find the herbs work stronger or the

acpuncture doesn't .....

Heiko

[Guest guest]

difficult tomanage. I have tried the theory of using acupuncture to improve spleenand herbs for yin xu .......but I find the herbs work stronger or theacpuncture doesn't .....>>>What herbs are you using for the yin

Alon

[Guest guest]

"

>

> But then I find that adding spleen tonics starts to aggravete the yin xu

> and cause and cause heat s and s , flushing , thirst, pimples etc

>

> The patients present as yin xu in terms of symptoms, tongue etc , the

> yin tonics cause spleen aggravations........the spleen tonics if added

> cause heat.......

>

> Heiko

 

 

Heiko,

 

Then I still say you haven't chosen the best herbs for that patient.

why not use shan yao? it strengthens the Sp and it protects fluids. could

you present a case and formula you've tried and explain what went wrong?

 

Cara