Guest guest Posted September 28, 2001 Report Share Posted September 28, 2001 Hola, herbalistas! I have a patient whom I've been treating for about six months. His case has gone very well and we're both pleased with the results, there is however one lingering symptom that I haven't been able to correct. Perhaps someone here can give me some ideas on this. His butt leaks. There is some kind of fluid that appears to be coming from inside the rectum and it causes him some understandable discomfort. Here's a bit on his case (sorry for not conforming to guidelines): Chief complaint was diarrhea (mostly water, no strong odor) and abdominal pain. The symptoms are stress induced. Problem was around for about 25 years. Other symptoms include heart burn, gas (no offensive odor). I have not met this man personally, but after discussing his tongue, it appears that the tongue coating is not abnormally thick. There is a crack in the center and the color may be pale. He is an upright blue-color worker in his mid fifties. When I speak to him on the phone, I am reminded of Martin Sheen as the union rep for Bluestar airlines in the movie Wall Street. I've treated him with powdered extracts mostly with the following herbs: For Qi stagnation: Chao Bai Shao Zhi Gan Cao Zhi Shi Chai Hu For dampness: fang feng chen pi I also include in his formula Huang Lian Wu Zhu Yu these, with bai shao are for the stomach/liver issue causing stress induced heartburn. Finally, I add some Suan Zao Ren and Yuan Zhi for his general well-being. He is a bit uptight, but since his severe IBS has been about 90% managed, he is approaching life with much more confidence and general enjoyment. We've just got this one leaky rectum thing to go. I recently attempted to dry up his rectum with some kidney tonics, they include: Bu Gu Zhi Wu Wei Zi Shan Yao Yi Zhi Ren These herbs apparently didn't do the trick. I suspect that it is simply some dampness leaking out, but I have yet to find an indication of which herbs are used for this particular symptom. In the past I've also tried: Huo Ziang, Hou Po, Bai Zhu, Fu Ling Pi, and Mai Ya. These are in a variation on Huo Xiang Zheng Qi San that is called Ya Jia Jian Zheng Qi San. It is used for gummy stools. (Bensky pg. 185) No luck there either. I tried Bai Dou Kou, Sha Ren and Cang Zhu. No luck there either. Any ideas? -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2001 Report Share Posted September 28, 2001 Hello group! My name is Fernando Bernall and I am new to the group. I must say that I have learned a great deal since I joined the list a couple of weeks ago. I would like to take this moment to respond to Al's question regarding his patient with fluid from his rectum, with a question: Has this patient been seen by an MD and if so, what was the diagnosis?. >There is some kind of fluid that appears to be coming from inside the >rectum and it causes him some understandable discomfort. Is there a possibility that he is suffering with a rectourethroperineal fistula, a problem that sometimes arises in Crohn’s Disease? >For dampness: >fang feng >chen pi Also, what is the pattern differentiation that would call for Chen Pi and Fang Feng for dampness? Sincerely, Fernando Bernall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2001 Report Share Posted September 28, 2001 I tried Bai Dou Kou, Sha Ren and Cang Zhu. No luck there either.>>How about raising Qi with Bu Zhong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 28, 2001 Report Share Posted September 28, 2001 >At 1:00 PM -0700 9/28/01, Al Stone wrote: >Any ideas? -- Well, it sounds like leakage due to spleen/kidney yang deficiency; if this fits, I'd warm, tonify, and astringe the middle. Rory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2001 Report Share Posted September 29, 2001 Long term diarrhea not only leads to def. of Spleen qiand Yang, but also involes the Kid. >>>I thought he tried this Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2001 Report Share Posted September 29, 2001 If I may ask what color oder the liquid coming out is, also does he have any other Spleen Yang/ Kid Yang def. Sore knees and back/ what color is the tongue coat- is he tired/ fatigued?? Long term diarrhea not only leads to def. of Spleen qi and Yang, but also involes the Kid. so it seems your patient is in this vicious cycle I would try Zhen ren yang zang tang:Warms the middle, tonifies xu, restrains leakages from Intestines, and stops diarrhea(Bensky 357) if you want to concentrate on warming the center ( I believe that it's better to use then Si Shen Wan b/c it's less of a warming shock to the Kidneys and Spleen. Bu zhong yi qi tang I believe is more mainly for the Spleen/Stomach Qi def and could help if you want to deal primarily with raising the sunken. The other is more for Spleen Qi AND Yang def. with herbs for Kid yang def as well. I am still learning so if anyone disagrees or has other points please feel free to write back anything you like... that's how we all learn right?? Good Luck Listen to your Mail messages from any phone. http://phone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2001 Report Share Posted September 29, 2001 Fernando Bernall wrote: > > Hello group! > > My name is Fernando Bernall and I am new to the group. I must say that I have learned a great deal since I joined the list a couple of weeks ago. > > I would like to take this moment to respond to Al's question regarding his patient with fluid from his rectum, with a question: > Has this patient been seen by an MD and if so, what was the diagnosis?. " Idiopathic fuctional bowel disorder " He's had significant interaction with biomedicine, so if there's anything in there that hasn't been addressed, it would have to be very new. > Also, what is the pattern differentiation that would call for Chen Pi and Fang Feng for dampness? His real issue is a Liver/Spleen disharmony. Mess with the Spleen and dampness results. Hence, Chen Pi's ability to move Qi and dry dampness was an easy choice. I added Fang Feng also for a few reasons. 1. It is in Tong Xie Yao Feng which is the big stress-induced diarrhea formula. I had all the other ingredients in there, I figured why leve Fang Feng out? 2. Fang Feng does have the function of drying dampness. It was explained to me as gently blowing on damp to dry it up. 3. It goes to the Liver and Spleen to reduce that disharmony too. -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2001 Report Share Posted September 30, 2001 Al, There's another herb, de4 yu2, that you could use topically to dry the dampness. It's often used for hemorrhoids in China but it is useful for drying and astringing anything that is leaking. There is a caution in its use as it contains toxins that can damage the liver in high dosages and over prolonged periods of use. Sorry, I don't have the molecular data to hand. But I have used the herb for athlete's foot, with good results, and always observe the caution after talking it over with several traditional pharmacists. I'm not sure whether it's being imported into the States. I've never bought it in California, but I don't think I've ever looked for it either. If you find it and want to use it, you might check with the source regarding raw vs. fried. I've heard different things from different pharmacists in China and am not certain as of now which is preferrable in different situations. And I don't use it enough to know by my own experience. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2001 Report Share Posted October 1, 2001 yulong wrote: > > Al, > > There's another herb, de4 yu2, that you > could use topically to dry the dampness. > It's often used for hemorrhoids in China > but it is useful for drying and astringing > anything that is leaking. Thanks Ken. Do you think that this is Di4 Yu2 (Rx. Sanguisorbae Offinalis)? -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2001 Report Share Posted October 1, 2001 I think so, Al. I have not learned the latin name of it as I've only dealt with in in China. A good pharmacist will know. Ken , Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote: > > > yulong@m... wrote: > > > > Al, > > > > There's another herb, de4 yu2, that you > > could use topically to dry the dampness. > > It's often used for hemorrhoids in China > > but it is useful for drying and astringing > > anything that is leaking. > > Thanks Ken. > > Do you think that this is Di4 Yu2 (Rx. Sanguisorbae Offinalis)? > > -- > Al Stone L.Ac. > <AlStone@B...> > http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 1, 2001 Report Share Posted October 1, 2001 Would this be Sanguisorba? Jim Ramholz , yulong@m... wrote: > I think so, Al. > > I have not learned the latin name of it > as I've only dealt with in in China. > > A good pharmacist will know. > > Ken > > , Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote: > > > > > > yulong@m... wrote: > > > > > > Al, > > > > > > There's another herb, de4 yu2, that you > > > could use topically to dry the dampness. > > > It's often used for hemorrhoids in China > > > but it is useful for drying and astringing > > > anything that is leaking. > > > > Thanks Ken. > > > > Do you think that this is Di4 Yu2 (Rx. Sanguisorbae Offinalis)? > > > > -- > > Al Stone L.Ac. > > <AlStone@B...> > > http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com > > > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2001 Report Share Posted October 2, 2001 Dear Al, In my opinion it does seem like severe liv.-sp disharmony. Tong xie yao fang does seem appropiate, thouhg emphasis should be put on drying dampness ( adding cang zhu), drainnig dampness via urine- ze xie and fu ling. Further I think that astringents are absalutly necesary, such as - hai piao xiao, he zi and lian zi. Also did you think of any external wash ????? take care Boaz >Al Stone > >Chinese Herbal Medicine > herbs for rectal moisture >Fri, 28 Sep 2001 13:00:47 -0700 > >Hola, herbalistas! > >I have a patient whom I've been treating for about six months. His case >has gone very well and we're both pleased with the results, there is >however one lingering symptom that I haven't been able to correct. >Perhaps someone here can give me some ideas on this. > >His butt leaks. > >There is some kind of fluid that appears to be coming from inside the >rectum and it causes him some understandable discomfort. > >Here's a bit on his case (sorry for not conforming to guidelines): > >Chief complaint was diarrhea (mostly water, no strong odor) and >abdominal pain. The symptoms are stress induced. Problem was around >for about 25 years. Other symptoms include heart burn, gas (no offensive odor). > >I have not met this man personally, but after discussing his tongue, it >appears that the tongue coating is not abnormally thick. There is a >crack in the center and the color may be pale. He is an upright >blue-color worker in his mid fifties. When I speak to him on the phone, >I am reminded of Martin Sheen as the union rep for Bluestar airlines in >the movie Wall Street. > >I've treated him with powdered extracts mostly with the following herbs: > >For Qi stagnation: >Chao Bai Shao >Zhi Gan Cao >Zhi Shi >Chai Hu > >For dampness: >fang feng >chen pi > >I also include in his formula >Huang Lian >Wu Zhu Yu >these, with bai shao are for the stomach/liver issue causing stress >induced heartburn. > >Finally, I add some Suan Zao Ren and Yuan Zhi for his general >well-being. He is a bit uptight, but since his severe IBS has been >about 90% managed, he is approaching life with much more confidence and >general enjoyment. We've just got this one leaky rectum thing to go. > >I recently attempted to dry up his rectum with some kidney tonics, they include: >Bu Gu Zhi >Wu Wei Zi >Shan Yao >Yi Zhi Ren >These herbs apparently didn't do the trick. > >I suspect that it is simply some dampness leaking out, but I have yet to >find an indication of which herbs are used for this particular symptom. >In the past I've also tried: > >Huo Ziang, Hou Po, Bai Zhu, Fu Ling Pi, and Mai Ya. These are in a >variation on Huo Xiang Zheng Qi San that is called Ya Jia Jian Zheng Qi >San. It is used for gummy stools. (Bensky pg. 185) No luck there either. > >I tried Bai Dou Kou, Sha Ren and Cang Zhu. No luck there either. > >Any ideas? > >-- >Al Stone L.Ac. > >http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com > >Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2001 Report Share Posted October 2, 2001 boaz colodner wrote: > > Dear Al, > > In my opinion it does seem like severe liv.-sp disharmony. Tong xie > yao fang does seem appropiate, thouhg emphasis should be put on drying > dampness ( adding cang zhu), drainnig dampness via urine- ze xie and > fu ling. Further I think that astringents are absalutly necesary, such > as - hai piao xiao, he zi and lian zi. > > Also did you think of any external wash ????? Not really. It just seems to be coming from within rather than oh, say a weeping rash. Thanks for the other tips, though. -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2001 Report Share Posted October 2, 2001 --- boaz colodner <b_colodner wrote: <HR> <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV> <P>Dear Al,</P> <P>In my opinion it does seem like severe liv.-sp disharmony. Boaz- I agree with the Spleen being involed, but where do you see Lr-Sp disharmony from the minor case hx given? Listen to your Mail messages from any phone. http://phone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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