Anthrax

[Guest guest]

Here is Jim Duke's list, which includes several Chinese herbs and more

importantly several weeds that grow in areas likely to be targets. Note

that not all of those in the list are edible:

 

" If I knew it was anthrax, I might dine on some of the edible among the

folkloric antianthrax herbs listed in my Herbal Desk Reference; agrimony,

ashwagandha, black nightshade, dogwood, lemonbush,

marijuana, milkthistle, papaya, purslane, valerian, walnut, bactericidal

watercress, and most of all yellow dock. "

 

(used with permission)

Karen Vaughan

CreationsGarden

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Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment.

All that is necessary is to accept the impossible, do without the

indispensable, and bear the intolerable.-- Kathleen Norris

 

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[Guest guest]

, Karen S Vaughan <creationsgarden@j...>

wrote:

 

agrimony is related to xianhe cao - I wonder about this one

 

 

> marijuana - ha-ha. kind of amusing that pot might save us from a bio attack

 

walnut - is this juglans nigra? what part is used.

 

[Guest guest]

Saunas Improve Circulation, Reduce Heart Disease RiskMen with risk factors for coronary heart disease may improve their circulation by taking regular saunas, according to a study published in this month's edition of the Journal of the American College of Cardiology.http://www.PureCaps.com/link.html?id=144

 

-

WMorris116

Cc: pulsediagnosis

Friday, September 21, 2001 2:08 AM

Re: Anthrax

Karen, You are right, it is time to be ready. I think Shang Han/Wen Bing models are the ticket. Here is a rough breakdown of Shang Han Lun management of the progression of anthrax. I sent this to the pulse group as well since think as many people need to be on top of this as possible. Will Tai Yang Pattern Initial flu symptoms Gui Zhi Tang - Ma Huang Tang Xiao Jie Xiong Pattern fluid in the pleura Xiao Xian Xiong Tang Shao Yang Syndrome alternating fever and chills,dullness of the head, lethargy, severe headache, tinnitus Xiao Chai Hu Tang Tai Yin Syndrome belching, cold vomiting, chilled, abdomen and diarrhea Li Zhong Wan – Fu Zi Li Zhong Wan Shao Yin Syndrome sweating all over, eventual, cyanosis, exhaustion with feeling of impending doom, Si Ni Tang Jue Yin Syndrome labored breathing, tetanic convulsions of the upper limbs, burning sensation of the fingertips, clonic spasms Wu Mei Wan – Dang Gui Si Ni San Jue Yin Blood Phase Pattern bleeding from skin, mouth and nose, dark blood with little ability to coagulate, hemoptysis, bloody dysentery Jie Du Huo Xue Tang – Xi JiaoDi Huang Tang Jue Yin Heat Patterns rapid pulse, foul breath, nodules in the neck, carbuncles and pussy abscesses, dilation of the pupils Si Ni San plus Jiang Can, GouTeng, and Bo He Bai Hu Tang Da Cheng Qi Tang In a message dated 9/20/01 2:14:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, creationsgarden writes:

Anyone know what the traditional formulas for anthrax in its likely presentations would be? The symptomatic descriptions I've read keep referring to "cold-like" or "flu-like" symptoms which present during the first 24 hours, go away for a day and return to rapidly destroy the lung and kill the patient. From a combination of western and homeopathic sources I compiled the following symptoms: alternating fever and chills, dullness of the head, lethargy, severe headache, a rapid pulse, foul breath, nodules in the neck, dilation of the pupils, tinnitus, belching, cold vomiting, chilled abdomen and diarrhea, labored breathing, tetanic convulsions of the upper limbs, burning sensation of the fingertips, sweating all over, eventual cyanosis, clonic spasms, exhaustion with feeling of impending doom, carbuncles and pussy abscesses, bleeding from skin, mouth and nose, dark blood with little ability to coagulate, hemoptysis, bloody dyssentery and fluid in the pleura. Western treatment is antibiotics which must be given in the first 24 hours. Gao lian jiang apparently has specific properties against the anthrax bacteria, but I am unaware of dosage or preferred mode of administration. And I don't know whether it works against pulmonary ingestion of spores as opposed to gastro-intestinal anthrax. It is warming and acrid, which may not be the overall balance we need. The Ecclectic (Felter's) treatment of anthrax was echinacea angustifolia root tincture, 1/8-1/2 ounce, every two or three hours around the clock while the system is overwhelmed with toxins. This applies to the alcohol tincture of the roots- if you can't taste it (as with a capsule), you will need much more and it will not get into your lymphatic system rapidly or as effectively. And who knows what might be needed with modern, altered anthrax? Anyway, since anthrax was already released in the terrorist attack in Tokyo (and fortunately blown out to sea), it might be a good idea to be ready with traditional formulas. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

I am afraid traditional formulas in Shang Han Lun is not applicable to

anthrax. There were many failures in applying Shang Han Lun incorrectly

before. Zhang Zhong Jing showed us the way (Bian Zheng Lun Zhi) in Shang

Han Lun rather than the formulas. As to Anthrax, the timing and stage are

very crucial. There is no time to apply an inappropriate formula.

 

Bob

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Bob:

 

Can you apply the Wen Bing Xue theory to Anthrax, AIDS, or other

diseases with latent stages---if you think it's appropriate?

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

, " Bob Xu " <bxu21@h...> wrote:

> I am afraid traditional formulas in Shang Han Lun is not applicable

to

> anthrax. There were many failures in applying Shang Han Lun

incorrectly

> before. Zhang Zhong Jing showed us the way (Bian Zheng Lun Zhi) in

Shang

> Han Lun rather than the formulas. As to Anthrax, the timing and

stage are

> very crucial. There is no time to apply an inappropriate formula.

>

> Bob

>

>

> _______________

> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at

http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

[Guest guest]

Jim:

 

It depends. Because different people have different health conditions, we

had better treat patients individually rather than give a general pattern.

Most failures in the practice of Traditional (TCM) rised

from inappropriate application of certain formulas rather than TCM itself.

If applied appropriately, FDA would not have taken action on certain herbs

in TCM.

 

Bob

 

 

> " James Ramholz " <jramholz

>

>

> Re: Anthrax

>Tue, 09 Oct 2001 18:41:11 -0000

>

>Bob:

>

>Can you apply the Wen Bing Xue theory to Anthrax, AIDS, or other

>diseases with latent stages---if you think it's appropriate?

>

>Jim Ramholz

>

>

>

>

>, " Bob Xu " <bxu21@h...> wrote:

> > I am afraid traditional formulas in Shang Han Lun is not applicable

>to

> > anthrax. There were many failures in applying Shang Han Lun

>incorrectly

> > before. Zhang Zhong Jing showed us the way (Bian Zheng Lun Zhi) in

>Shang

> > Han Lun rather than the formulas. As to Anthrax, the timing and

>stage are

> > very crucial. There is no time to apply an inappropriate formula.

> >

> > Bob

> >

> >

> > _______________

> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at

>http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

>

 

 

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[Guest guest]

, " Bob Xu " <bxu21@h...> wrote:

> It depends. Because different people have different health

conditions, we had better treat patients individually rather than

give a general pattern.

 

 

What I was proposing earlier was an observation based of a common

pattern found at various stages in HIV/AIDS patients. My notion was

that by utilizing 5-Phases we can chart the course of a pathogen in a

healthy person to help describe the etiology that typically happens,

and by using the Host/Guest rules of 5-Phases we can track that

development of unique symptoms in any particualr individual. I

thought it useful because the pulse can show changes before other

signs and symptoms develop or are reported. But no one seems

interested in 5-Phases; and the other 9 methods seem to only

describe, not predict, the route of pathology. Chapters 66-76 of the

Nei Jing offer a method of prediction or prognosis.

 

Instead, can you offer any case histories that show Wen Bing theory?

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

> " James Ramholz " <jramholz wrote:

 

>What I was proposing earlier was an observation based of a common

>pattern found at various stages in HIV/AIDS patients. My notion was

>that by utilizing 5-Phases we can chart the course of a pathogen in a

>healthy person to help describe the etiology that typically happens,

 

 

I agree with you that in the case of HIV infection, there are some typical

patterns (although still varies for different patients) to follow. But at

the AIDS stage, it's inappropriate to get a general pattern. The latter is

a syndrome, and one had better treat the patient individually. I had a

paper (in Chinese, published in the Proceeding of China TCM Society, Dalian

Conference last year) which described the HIV/AIDS classification in TCM.

 

Bob

 

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[Guest guest]

, " Bob Xu " <bxu21@h...> wrote:

> I agree with you that in the case of HIV infection, there are some

typical

> patterns (although still varies for different patients) to follow.

But at

> the AIDS stage, it's inappropriate to get a general pattern. The

latter is

> a syndrome, and one had better treat the patient individually. I

had a

> paper (in Chinese, published in the Proceeding of China TCM

Society, Dalian

> Conference last year) which described the HIV/AIDS classification

in TCM.

 

 

I was trying to describe both the energetic pattern during the

latency period as well as an individual's symptomology during the

syndrome, by using the pulses as the central means of diagnosis. But

doing it only in terms of 5-Phases; it doesn't preclude you from

doing in in the TCM way. The Mai Jing underscores the importance of

the pulses as a system of diagnosis, and underscores the importance

of tracking a disorder even before overt signs and symptoms arise.

The Mai Jing, in the chapter on death pulses, gives extreme examples

of 5-Phase interactions particular to the pulses. Most importantly in

that chapter it says that when the pulse is diseased but the person

is not diseased, " it presages death. " And, when the person is

diseased but the pulse is not diseased, " this is life " (or, more

accurately, they are getting better).

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

> " James Ramholz " <jramholz wrote:

>

>I was trying to describe both the energetic pattern during the

>latency period as well as an individual's symptomology during the

>syndrome, by using the pulses as the central means of diagnosis. But

>doing it only in terms of 5-Phases; it doesn't preclude you from

>doing in in the TCM way. The Mai Jing underscores the importance of

>the pulses as a system of diagnosis, and underscores the importance

>of tracking a disorder even before overt signs and symptoms arise.

>The Mai Jing, in the chapter on death pulses, gives extreme examples

>of 5-Phase interactions particular to the pulses. Most importantly in

>that chapter it says that when the pulse is diseased but the person

>is not diseased, " it presages death. " And, when the person is

>diseased but the pulse is not diseased, " this is life " (or, more

>accurately, they are getting better).

 

I think you are doing a very meaningful work by using pulses as the main

diagnosis tool. Although it's not the only TCM diagnosis tool, the pulse is

very important to doctors of Chinese medicine (OMD). Just as you said, it

can predict before signs and symptoms in many cases. The problem with the

application of pulses is as Wang Shu He put it: Clear in mind, but confused

under fingers. It arises from the subjective nature of pulses. Probably

what's most needed in TCM is to set up an objective pulses system.

Otherwise, it's very hard for doctors of western medicine (MD) to accept

pulses diagnosis. We are in America, and probably need to consider how to

communicate with MDs. I believe all sciences are compatible. Chinese

medicine and Western medicine are actually common in nature, and differ in

appearance only.

 

By the way, I just joined Chinese Herbal Medicine several days ago, and didn't

see your discussion on 5-Phases theory. I wonder does it refer to the Wu

Xing Theory in TCM, or the AIDS stages classified by CDC, or any other

theory?

 

Bob

 

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[Guest guest]

Bob:

 

The system of pulse diagnosis that I work with is of Korean origin;

it combines and expands upon the classics---primarily the Nan Jing

and Li Shi-zhen. It is heavily based in 5-Phase (Wu xing) theory,

which makes it sometimes difficult to communicate with TCM

practitioners.

 

To the contrary, I think the pulses are already a sufficiently

objective standard---if all the classical material would be utilized.

It is the most obvious and accurate criteria for diagnosis and

prognosis. If an acupuncture or herbal treatment strategy can create

a normal (huan mai) movement, health, the classics say, is assured.

 

The weakness of pulse diagnosis in TCM is due to the fact that it

ignores the classics. Most schools offer very little training and

only a few basic ideas from Li Shi-zhen are utilized. Very few

practitioners apply the ideas from the Mai Jing and Nei Jing. They

are orphan texts.

 

I feel as you do about communication with MDs. The

Net has discussed this topic at length. You can read the postings at

ChineseMedicinenet

to see the widely varied opinions.

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

> I think you are doing a very meaningful work by using pulses as the

main

> diagnosis tool. Although it's not the only TCM diagnosis tool, the

pulse is

> very important to doctors of Chinese medicine (OMD). Just as you

said, it

> can predict before signs and symptoms in many cases. The problem

with the

> application of pulses is as Wang Shu He put it: Clear in mind, but

confused

> under fingers. It arises from the subjective nature of pulses.

Probably

> what's most needed in TCM is to set up an objective pulses system.

> Otherwise, it's very hard for doctors of western medicine (MD) to

accept

> pulses diagnosis. We are in America, and probably need to consider

how to

> communicate with MDs. I believe all sciences are compatible.

Chinese

> medicine and Western medicine are actually common in nature, and

differ in

> appearance only.

>

> By the way, I just joined Chinese Herbal Medicine several days ago,

and didn't

> see your discussion on 5-Phases theory. I wonder does it refer to

the Wu

> Xing Theory in TCM, or the AIDS stages classified by CDC, or any

other

> theory?

>

> Bob

>

> _______________

> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at

http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

[Guest guest]

Jim,

 

As a TCM doctor, I am in favor of Wu Xing Theory. The problem with it is

that it's still not been well studied. There are contradictions in it.

This causes people trying to avoid it (if not oppose it) sometimes. I hope

to make it clear when I have a chance.

 

As to the objective pulse system, we might have some differences in the

definition of " objective " . I wonder what " classics " refer to in the

objective system you mentioned? My feeling is that the root of subjective

nature of pulse lies in the measurement itself. The measurement is for an

extensive parameter that is hard to be objective despite of Nei, Nan, Mei

etc.

 

Both Wu Xing and pulse system are very long topics. I am afraid we'll go

too far away from our " Re: Anthrax " . Do you think we need to

communicate individually to further explore the two topics? My email

address is:

bxu21

 

Bob Xu

 

 

>Bob:

>

>The system of pulse diagnosis that I work with is of Korean origin;

>it combines and expands upon the classics---primarily the Nan Jing

>and Li Shi-zhen. It is heavily based in 5-Phase (Wu xing) theory,

>which makes it sometimes difficult to communicate with TCM

>practitioners.

>

>To the contrary, I think the pulses are already a sufficiently

>objective standard---if all the classical material would be utilized.

>It is the most obvious and accurate criteria for diagnosis and

>prognosis. If an acupuncture or herbal treatment strategy can create

>a normal (huan mai) movement, health, the classics say, is assured.

>

>The weakness of pulse diagnosis in TCM is due to the fact that it

>ignores the classics. Most schools offer very little training and

>only a few basic ideas from Li Shi-zhen are utilized. Very few

>practitioners apply the ideas from the Mai Jing and Nei Jing. They

>are orphan texts.

>

>I feel as you do about communication with MDs. The

>Net has discussed this topic at length. You can read the postings at

>ChineseMedicinenet

>to see the widely varied opinions.

>

>Jim Ramholz

 

 

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