micro-macro/ was diet

[Guest guest]

, sharon muscat <purekarm> wrote:

>

> > TCM is Macro Medicine,Western Medicine is Micro

> > Medicine.People who study TCM had better not use

> > WM opinions to think TCM,otherwise,you will lose

> > your directions.Try to use TCM to think WM maybe

> > much proper.Enzame is a Micro-view,as well as

> > becterias,they all got 1000 or 100-1000. of types.

> > Jean

> >

> -- You made a refreshing point Jeanu- thank you

> >

> >

 

But the micro complements the macro. A true holistic medicine would

consider both. that is why I consider integrative east west medicine

to be superior to either alone. My main interest in western medicine

is use of nutritional supplements and functional lab tests, but

sometimes it is useful to use antibiotics for a holistic goal. For

example, when getting a stool culture form Great Smokies Diagnostic

Labs, the offending microbes are tested for their sensitivity to

various natural and synthetic agents. Sometimes you might need to use

antibiotics, but I always try and integrate these cold agents into a

complete TCM plan. Some people claim that TCM analysis and methods

alone are adequate in all cases of chronic illness. I have not found

this to be true in either my practice or in my observation of others,

even those with extensive experience and who read chinese.

 

[Guest guest]

But the micro complements the macro. A true holistic medicine would consider both. that is why I consider integrative east west medicine to be superior to either alone. My main interest in western medicine is use of nutritional supplements and functional lab tests

>>>You are correct and to say that good western medicine in not is not understanding it. Unfortunately in practice most physicians are too specialized.

Alon

 

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Sunday, September 30, 2001 10:07 PM

Re: micro-macro/ was diet

, sharon muscat <purekarm> wrote:> > > TCM is Macro Medicine,Western Medicine is Micro> > Medicine.People who study TCM had better not use> > WM opinions to think TCM,otherwise,you will lose> > your directions.Try to use TCM to think WM maybe> > much proper.Enzame is a Micro-view,as well as> > becterias,they all got 1000 or 100-1000. of types.> > Jean> > > -- You made a refreshing point Jeanu- thank you > > > > But the micro complements the macro. A true holistic medicine would consider both. that is why I consider integrative east west medicine to be superior to either alone. My main interest in western medicine is use of nutritional supplements and functional lab tests, but sometimes it is useful to use antibiotics for a holistic goal. For example, when getting a stool culture form Great Smokies Diagnostic Labs, the offending microbes are tested for their sensitivity to various natural and synthetic agents. Sometimes you might need to use antibiotics, but I always try and integrate these cold agents into a complete TCM plan. Some people claim that TCM analysis and methods alone are adequate in all cases of chronic illness. I have not found this to be true in either my practice or in my observation of others, even those with extensive experience and who read chinese.ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

But the micro complements the macro. A true holistic medicine would consider both. that is why I consider integrative east west medicine to be superior to either alone. My main interest in western medicine is use of nutritional supplements and functional lab tests

>>>>>>I would approach this with great care. I have used many of these tests for many years and too often found them to be important only in principal and not in practice. I have also just came back from a conference were I have shared a room with Dr Dorman who used to work in Dr Jonathan Write's clinic, and interestingly he is coming to the same conclusion after doing these tests on thousands of patients. They are expensive and one can usually make conclusions based on clinical information

Alon

 

-

 

Sunday, September 30, 2001 10:07 PM

Re: micro-macro/ was diet

, sharon muscat <purekarm> wrote:> > > TCM is Macro Medicine,Western Medicine is Micro> > Medicine.People who study TCM had better not use> > WM opinions to think TCM,otherwise,you will lose> > your directions.Try to use TCM to think WM maybe> > much proper.Enzame is a Micro-view,as well as> > becterias,they all got 1000 or 100-1000. of types.> > Jean> > > -- You made a refreshing point Jeanu- thank you > > > > But the micro complements the macro. A true holistic medicine would consider both. that is why I consider integrative east west medicine to be superior to either alone. My main interest in western medicine is use of nutritional supplements and functional lab tests, but sometimes it is useful to use antibiotics for a holistic goal. For example, when getting a stool culture form Great Smokies Diagnostic Labs, the offending microbes are tested for their sensitivity to various natural and synthetic agents. Sometimes you might need to use antibiotics, but I always try and integrate these cold agents into a complete TCM plan. Some people claim that TCM analysis and methods alone are adequate in all cases of chronic illness. I have not found this to be true in either my practice or in my observation of others, even those with extensive experience and who read chinese.ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

, " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

I have used many of these tests for many years and too often found

them to be important only in principal and not in practice. I have also

just came back from a conference were I have shared a room with Dr

Dorman who used to work in Dr Jonathan Write's clinic, and

interestingly he is coming to the same conclusion after doing these

tests on thousands of patients. They are expensive and one can usually

make conclusions based on clinical information

 

 

I disagree. I find them very useful and have also used them for over

ten years. To each their own.

 

[Guest guest]

I disagree. I find them very useful and have also used them for over ten years. To each their own.>>>Can you tell which test you use that give you information that you can not get clinically, except for hormone levels, and can make treatment decisions clinically

Alon

[Guest guest]

, <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> I disagree. I find them very useful and have also used them for over

> ten years. To each their own.

>

> >>>Can you tell which test you use that give you information that you can not

get clinically, except for hormone levels, and can make treatment decisions

clinically

> Alon

 

stool culture, liver detox function, intestinal permeability

 

[Guest guest]

stool culture, liver detox function, intestinal permeability

>>>As for stool cultures (and i am assuming you are talking about so called comprehensive stool cultures as done by great smoky etc) what difference in particular have you seen. And in how many patients have you first treated empirically first?

Intestinal permeability results in s/s that are very clear and therefore I question the additional expense. As for liver detox function I agree, but I include these in Toxicity studies which can be of major importance

Alon

[Guest guest]

, <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> stool culture, liver detox function, intestinal permeability

> >>>As for stool cultures (and i am assuming you are talking about so called

comprehensive stool cultures as done by great smoky etc) what difference in

particular have you seen. And in how many patients have you first treated

empirically first?

 

Well, I treat most empirically first, but if I am unsuccesful, I may b

do tests. I may sometimes refer the patient to an Md for drug

treatment in certain cases. I like how the GSDL tests also show drug

and herb sensitivities. I have no trouble with my patients using drugs

in stubborn cases. sometimes strong substances in easy to take form is

desirable. I just try and work with holistic MD's in such cases and

integrate drug therapy into a TCM protocol so address the other aspects

of the patterns with an herbal therapy. So I find it helpful to

identify which specific drug would be useful, in order to minimize

guesswork. While I know these things can be treated herbally and

empirically in many cases, I just have too many patients who will not

take adequate doses of herbs for the necessary treatment interval. I

also find the tests useful for demonstrating objectively measured

changes during the course of therapy. I think the more data we collect

along these lines, the more credibility we gain.

 

> Intestinal permeability results in s/s that are very clear and therefore I

question the additional expense.

 

I think similar systemic symptoms are seen in candida, food allergies,

multiple chemical sensitivity, fibromyalgia and major depression. I

can't differentiate which of my patients with these complaints has

intestinal permeability problems with symptoms alone. Again, while I

could just treat the symptom complex empirically according to TCM, this

is again dependent upon good patient compliance. In some cases, I can

achieve equal results using a combination of nutritional supplements

and encapsulated or liquid extract herbs. But if that is the case, I

like lab tests to guide me in using the western substance. I then try

and understand the supplements from a TCM perspective in a balanced

treatment plan.

 

[Guest guest]

I have no trouble with my patients using drugs in stubborn cases

>>>What types of pathogens are you talking about? In my experience a regular stool analysis gives me all I need. In only every rare cases do I need a purged stool or swabs. Now, I use western type of therapies from the start so may be that is were we differ.

 

As far as permeability remember that it is always secondary and treatment just envoles improving intestinal health. I think it is very easy to ascertain clinically that somebody's intestinal health is vulnerable and I would treat it anyway. The test does not change my treatment so the expense is a waste. To me tests are important in a few ways. The first of for most is it going to change my treatment. Second is it going to rule out serious disease. Third is it going to give the patient information that is healthy for them or just going to make them feel sicker. And lastly what is the expense benefit ratio

Alon