Guest guest Posted October 19, 2001 Report Share Posted October 19, 2001 Dear Group, a while ago I asked for advice on an herb text that could be secondary to Bensky for teaching. Will Morris recommended Oriental Materia Medica by Hsu and Associates, which I bought. It's true, it does cover many more substances than Bensky, but it does not go deeply into them. I am still looking for a reference text that will help me teach more deeply. Specifically, this week I am striving to understand the relationship between the way astringent herbs work to restrain leakages, but also clear dampness, eliminate parasites and pathogens, etc. For example, Chun Pi (Cortex Ailanthi Altissimae), which is bitter, cold and astringent, treats damp heat leukorrhea and bacillary dysentery. Why would you want to astringe such things? My herb teacher emphasized that you would only use astringent herbs for people who were really deficient, effusively leaking substances. Your thoughts? Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2001 Report Share Posted October 20, 2001 > > Specifically, this week I am striving to understand the relationship between > the way astringent herbs work to restrain leakages, but also clear dampness, > eliminate parasites and pathogens, etc. For example, Chun Pi (Cortex Ailanthi > Altissimae), which is bitter, cold and astringent, treats damp heat > leukorrhea and bacillary dysentery. Why would you want to astringe such > things? My herb teacher emphasized that you would only use astringent herbs > for people who were really deficient, effusively leaking substances. > > Your thoughts? > > Julie I agree, those terms seem mutually exclusive. And unlike many other astringent herbs, this one is neither sour or white and absorbent. -- It might be easier to grasp the nature of chun pi if you thin of it as a drying agent: bitter and cold. Or to use western ascription's: antibacterial, anti- inflammatory, detoxicant. another possibility is that the herb is miscatagorized from the start as many others have been. Cara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2001 Report Share Posted October 20, 2001 , Cara Frank <herbbabe@e...> wrote: > I agree, those terms seem mutually exclusive. And unlike many other > astringent herbs, this one is neither sour or white and absorbent. actually many, if not most of the astringent herbs in Bensky are not attributed a sour taste. Many important ones are not white, either (wu mei, wu wei zi, shan zhu yu, chi shi zhi). And I don't know what you mean by absorbent. Flavor is hardly the deciding factor in what an herb does. Empirical observation of function has always taken precedence in categorization > -- It might be easier to grasp the nature of chun pi if you thin of it as a > drying agent: bitter and cold. Or to use western ascription's: > antibacterial, anti- inflammatory, detoxicant. It is all these things, but also astringent > another possibility is that the herb is miscatagorized from the start as > many others have been. > again, I am not sure what you mean by miscategorized. Categorization is arbitrary, to be sure. Herbs with many properties are placed in a single category, but there is nothing " wrong " about this. Categorization is a learning and organization tool. the only way to truly know an herb is learn all its functions, regardless of category. Category is just a starting point. So one might say that chun gen pi should be placed with dampheat herbs, but that does not negate its observed action of astringency. Finally, for insight into its clinical applications, it is often better to read about formulas it is included in. Yu dai wan is described in Bensky,'s F & S as treating dampheat, a condition of excess, yet the " formula contains astringent herbs (chun gen pi) to control the unremitting, profuse discharge " . Apparently, this is a case when the D/C is so profuse that vital essences are being lost and not only must dampheat be cleared, but in this case, the D/C must be slowed. No problem will result as long as the root is treated. Stopping discharge in dampheat is a problem if the DH is not treated or the patient is incorrectly warmed and tonified. This may be paradoxical, but it is hardly unusual in TCM. Even liu wei di huang wan both astringes (shan zhu yu, shan yao) and drains (fu ling, ze xie). Other formulas both stop bleeding and move blood or tonify and disperse or warm and cool simultaneously. I don't think there are errors here in the chinese attributions. While astringents are mainly used in deficiency, clearly there are exceptions to prove the rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2001 Report Share Posted October 20, 2001 Clearly, The upcoming text from Paradigm Press, " Ten Lectures on Medicinals " by " Jiao Shu-de " should fit the bill for you. Bob Felt wrote a summary of his work a few months ago here on CHA. On Friday, October 19, 2001, at 09:07 PM, juliej8 wrote: > Dear Group, a while ago I asked for advice on an herb text that could be > secondary to Bensky for teaching. Will Morris recommended Oriental > Materia > Medica by Hsu and Associates, which I bought. It's true, it does cover > many > more substances than Bensky, but it does not go deeply into them. I am > still > looking for a reference text that will help me teach more deeply. > (Julie) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2001 Report Share Posted October 20, 2001 > > actually many, if not most of the astringent herbs in Bensky are not > attributed a sour taste. Many important ones are not white, either (wu > mei, wu wei zi, shan zhu yu, chi shi zhi). wu wei zi is sour, shan zhu yu, sour, wu mei sour. shan yao- white- absorbent hai piao xiao- ditto duan mu li and long gu- ditto ditto lian zi, qian shi,- see my point? bai shao- sour and white! and I know that there are many herbs that do not follow this rule- rou dou kou for one, yi zhi ren, sang piao xiao, etc. And I don't know what you > mean by absorbent. Flavor is hardly the deciding factor in what an > herb does. I couldn't disagree with you more Todd. I think the flavor not only dictates function, but in fact IS a function. For instance, the sour flavor often refers to the tannin content of an herb. tannins are used to leatherize tissue, which in turn would bind leakages. > > > It is all these things, but also astringent > Right, it has a tightening, drying quality. I was only hoping to refocus an herbs that seems paradoxical. But to go back to flavors- chun pi is bitter- all bitter herbs are drying > >> another possibility is that the herb is miscatagorized from the start as >> many others have been. >> > > again, I am not sure what you mean by miscategorized. Categorization > is arbitrary, to be sure. right- should mu dan pi be placed with herbs that cool the blood or move the blood? Herbs with many properties are placed in a > single category, but there is nothing " wrong " about this. > Categorization is a learning and organization tool. the only way to > truly know an herb is learn all its functions, regardless of category. > Category is just a starting point. So one might say that chun gen pi > should be placed with dampheat herbs, but that does not negate its > observed action of astringency. > .. how's about, just for fun, we place chun pi w/ herbs that stop bleeding? -- Cara O. Frank, R.Ac herbbabe China Herb Company Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2001 Report Share Posted October 20, 2001 , Cara Frank <herbbabe@e...> wrote: > wu wei zi is sour, > shan zhu yu, sour, > wu mei sour. I said these herbs above were not white; I know they are sour > shan yao- white- absorbent > hai piao xiao- ditto > duan mu li and long gu- ditto ditto > lian zi, qian shi,- see my point? no, because the herbs I mentioned above are not white, nor are about half of those in Wiseman. It is merely coincidental that some are and some aren't. I don't think it is any more clinically meaningful than that. > > and I know that there are many herbs that do not follow this rule- rou dou > kou for one, yi zhi ren, sang piao xiao, etc. actually, the majority of astringents in that category in Wiseman are not sour (14 of 23), so sour flacor is clearly not a key determinant of astringency, just a correlation less than 50% of the time. You used the logic that because chun gen pi is not white or sour, it doesn't belong with the astringents. If you were right, most of the category would cease to exist. Are you saying chun gen pi doesn't astringe? > > I think the flavor not only > dictates function, but in fact IS a function. For instance, the sour flavor > often refers to the tannin content of an herb. tannins are used to > leatherize tissue, which in turn would bind leakages. yes, sour is astringent, but more astringent herbs are not sour than are, so flavor is not the key factor in this category - observed function is the key to categorization > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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