Culture shock

[Guest guest]

Hi Jean <insert smile>

 

> Hi, Groups,

>

> Do you feel that you get shock in my question

> yesterday? How dare you (Jean Su) could say TCM & WM

> in that way? You do against the tendency of modern

> science.

 

No not shocked!

>

> Every thing should have scientific evidences to prove.

> Other wise, you are not the people of modern society.

> You are savage. (It's just like I am doing the acute

> puncture to WM. Ha!Ha!)

 

Prior to going to TCM school... I work in a Scientific Research lab. We

studied alcoholism in rats... actually more specifically pyrithiamine

induced thiamine deficiency. Then we look at the brains. One of the

things, I learned is that if you massage the data enough, one will find

something significant !!

 

Anywise, I believe sooooooo much in TCM and no I do not need to see

scientific data. I know it has worked for thousands and thousands of people

over the years, and that is good enough for me.

I have experienced the wonders of TCM on myself... and that is enough to

make me a believer.

 

I am grateful that in this life that I can practice TCM... in my past life,

I could not practice only watch and observe because I was a female, however

my Uncle new very much!

>

> Few years ago, I met a Ph.D. of KYOTO University, he

> is Taiwanese, and also, he has good gifted talent of

> Qi4-Kun. When he us his finger tip point your meridum

> (points), from far distance (100cm) You will feel the

> heat flu fluently in your channel .He didn't do this

> performance all the time, I requested him to do so. He

> even didn't use needle., only finger tip.

>

> Am I crazy? No, My mind was clear .It was in a office

> of our school many people also stayed in that office

> at that moment.

 

This does not surprise me much... because I can only imagine how powerful

the mind is, and the more one becomes united with the Universe and all its

abundant energy, well many things are possible!

>

> What if the hypothesis of research go the wrong way,

> should we trust the result of scientific evidences?

Based on my experiences... I would find it very difficult to ever rely soley

on Scientific standards!

 

I believe people will seek the Medicine that resonates with them... many

more Westerners seem to seeking out something different then what they are

used to. Maybe that speaks for itself! Maybe we are already seeing that

people are searching for more then a proven scientific method.

 

I believe Buddha speaks on healing... and says that some people will not be

healed, regardless of the modality used.

 

Thank you Jeansu for the discussion!!!

 

Teresa

 

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I

have said it,

unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. "

 

-- The Buddha

[Guest guest]

I so agree, with an Integrative approach! When I was over in Wuhan, Providence of Hubai the Hospital was very integrated! I hope we see more set ups like that in the States *S*... You know where you can go and get x-rays, Acupuncture, Western Meds and or TCM. When I was there I had a fungus under my toenail, and first I went to a herbalist, at the Hospital, and he said that there was no herbs to cure that type of fungus <actually I think I contracted the fungus, here in the states... while trying on shoes> So the Herbalist wrote me a prescription for a Very powerful Western drug. I had to take it for 3 months, with breaks in between... and Very expensive over $150.00... forget how many Yuan that is. Anywise, the Western drug... made it go away, however it came back. So I suppose I need something that will address the Root!

 

In Health,

Teresa

 

 

manymore Westerners seem to seeking out something different then what they areused to. Maybe that speaks for itself

>>>You can say the same about TCM. WM is by far the more popular medicine in China as well as Asia. Again this tone of one against the other is futile there is strength and weakness in both.

Alon

 

-

Teresa Hall

Monday, October 15, 2001 8:52 PM

Re: Culture shock

Hi Jean <insert smile>> Hi, Groups,>> Do you feel that you get shock in my question> yesterday? How dare you (Jean Su) could say TCM & WM> in that way? You do against the tendency of modern> science.No not shocked!>> Every thing should have scientific evidences to prove.> Other wise, you are not the people of modern society.> You are savage. (It's just like I am doing the acute> puncture to WM. Ha!Ha!)Prior to going to TCM school... I work in a Scientific Research lab. Westudied alcoholism in rats... actually more specifically pyrithiamineinduced thiamine deficiency. Then we look at the brains. One of thethings, I learned is that if you massage the data enough, one will findsomething significant !!Anywise, I believe sooooooo much in TCM and no I do not need to seescientific data. I know it has worked for thousands and thousands of peopleover the years, and that is good enough for me.I have experienced the wonders of TCM on myself... and that is enough tomake me a believer.I am grateful that in this life that I can practice TCM... in my past life,I could not practice only watch and observe because I was a female, howevermy Uncle new very much!>> Few years ago, I met a Ph.D. of KYOTO University, he> is Taiwanese, and also, he has good gifted talent of> Qi4-Kun. When he us his finger tip point your meridum> (points), from far distance (100cm) You will feel the> heat flu fluently in your channel .He didn't do this> performance all the time, I requested him to do so. He> even didn't use needle., only finger tip.>> Am I crazy? No, My mind was clear .It was in a office> of our school many people also stayed in that office> at that moment.This does not surprise me much... because I can only imagine how powerfulthe mind is, and the more one becomes united with the Universe and all itsabundant energy, well many things are possible!>> What if the hypothesis of research go the wrong way,> should we trust the result of scientific evidences?Based on my experiences... I would find it very difficult to ever rely soleyon Scientific standards!I believe people will seek the Medicine that resonates with them... manymore Westerners seem to seeking out something different then what they areused to. Maybe that speaks for itself! Maybe we are already seeing thatpeople are searching for more then a proven scientific method.I believe Buddha speaks on healing... and says that some people will not behealed, regardless of the modality used.Thank you Jeansu for the discussion!!!TeresaBelieve nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if Ihave said it,unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." -- The BuddhaChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Hi, Groups,

 

Do you feel that you get shock in my question

yesterday? How dare you (Jean Su) could say TCM & WM

in that way? You do against the tendency of modern

science.

 

Every thing should have scientific evidences to prove.

Other wise, you are not the people of modern society.

You are savage. (It's just like I am doing the acute

puncture to WM. Ha!Ha!)

 

And, I might say, What you went through might called

culture shock.It is painful, I know. But, if you wish

to learn TCM from the bottom of our culture, you have

to get through it, to get over it, to get used to it.

 

When I took nursing training in Taiwan. Teachers

(native Chinese) told us, TCM is not scientific, It is

wrong. You shouldn't read and use TCM because they are

not scientific. AS well as patients, when you see

patient who use TCM as treatment, you have to told

them TCM is not scientific.

 

Our family has a family TCM doctor, he learn TCM from

his father, not from regular Education , and he is

licensed. Each time, When I catch cold or cough very

much (which WM can't treatment well), he always cured

me in only two units of raw herbal formula. And he

create each formula while he treat every single

patient (which almost every TCM doctor did both in

Mainland and Taiwan) all the time. He is not old.

 

Few years ago, I met a Ph.D. of KYOTO University, he

is Taiwanese, and also, he has good gifted talent of

Qi4-Kun. When he us his finger tip point your meridum

(points), from far distance (100cm) You will feel the

heat flu fluently in your channel .He didn't do this

performance all the time, I requested him to do so. He

even didn't use needle., only finger tip.

 

Am I crazy? No, My mind was clear .It was in a office

of our school many people also stayed in that office

at that moment.

 

How do you explain this in scientific evidence? Maybe

in the future scientific evidence will provide and

prove evidences. But, I can't see it now, and , I am

not going to deny it as well because it was really

happened in our society quite often.

 

While I am study TCM, I trace the resource /history of

TCM. I found during passing 5000 years, we have same

theory-five branch, same organs describe, same herbal

Formula same way to treat people's diseases , even in

the modern time. And our racial /nation didn't vanish

because of TCM theory, in fact, TCM growing very well.

It becomes world wide now. This means we are right

during passing 1000s years, even now and forever.

 

I am not a terrorist. I only speak the truth of TCM.

Also, I am not put TCM and WM in both good / bad,

right /wrong, in two side of evil or justice. I only

request while some claim he is expert of TCM, he have

to reach the level of Chinese's standard, in our

standard of TCM, not known only a little be herbs,

doing few herbal researches,then, all the TCM have to

follow the way of very few scientific evidences.

 

Some TCM herbal reseacher didn't quite get the whole

picture of TCM, now they claim his finding can cure

some diseases, I must say, it is very dangerous. Not

only to The patient but also to TCM because WM thought

every thing on medicine should follow the rule of

scientific evidences.

 

What if the hypothesis of research go the wrong way,

should we trust the result of scientific evidences?

 

Unfortunately, WM is the most powerful Ruler in the

world since last century and the begining of this

century. Therefore, That's why I have to put this

discussion here.

 

I think every augment should start in scientific

method, not personal attack. If you (Mark and Alon ,

maybe Cara..) have better idea then mine, please

provide your opinions in scientific research theory or

method, please don't doing personal attack.

And, I will never care about the attacks because truth

will always be truth.

 

Jean

 

 

 

=====

 

 

--------------------------------

< ¨C¤Ñ³£ ©_¼¯ > www..tw

[Guest guest]

Hi,Teresa,

 

Thank you for your encouragement.

Thank you very much.

 

Jean

 

 

=====

 

 

--------------------------------

< ¨C¤Ñ³£ ©_¼¯ > www..tw

[Guest guest]

I think these statements support my contention that some of us see our

wonderful medicine debased into a religion.

 

You are savage. (It's just like I am doing the acute

puncture to WM. Ha!Ha!)

 

>

> Anywise, I believe sooooooo much in TCM and no I do not need to see

> scientific data.

 

> I have experienced the wonders of TCM on myself... and that is enough to

> make me a believer.

 

 

>

> I believe Buddha speaks on healing... and says that some people will not

be

> healed, regardless of the modality used.

 

 

 

Hallelujah!!!!

 

Mark Reese

[Guest guest]

Hi,Mark,

 

You are savage.

 

Thank you for your comment!Thank you very much.

By the way,How much do you understand in TCM?

 

Please speak scientificlly and specilistly while you

discuss TCM.

Show me you are expert of both!!!!!

Thank you very much.

 

Jean

 

 

=====

 

 

--------------------------------

< ¨C¤Ñ³£ ©_¼¯ > www..tw

[Guest guest]

Jeansu,

 

Well, first of all my background is in biochemistry and I worked for years

in cancer research. I have also worked for years with AIDS patients here in

Chicago.

 

I have been practicing TCM for just short of a decade and teach for a TCM

college here in the city. I have an extensive practice which sees a busy

caseload each week. I believe if you were to question my patients, past and

present, they would be pleased with the care that they have received.

 

Question answered?

 

Mark Reese

-

" Jeansu " <jeansu009

 

Wednesday, October 24, 2001 10:17 AM

Re: Culture shock

 

 

> Hi,Mark,

>

> You are savage.

>

> Thank you for your comment!Thank you very much.

> By the way,How much do you understand in TCM?

>

> Please speak scientificlly and specilistly while you

> discuss TCM.

> Show me you are expert of both!!!!!

> Thank you very much.

>

> Jean

>

>

> =====

>

>

> --------------------------------

> < ¨C¤Ñ³£ ©_¼¯ > www..tw

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,Mark,

 

How much do you love your job?

How much do you love your patients?

How much do you love TCM?

 

From the bottom of your heart!!

And how much do you love human being?

 

Jean

 

 

=====

 

 

--------------------------------

< ¨C¤Ñ³£ ©_¼¯ > www..tw

[Guest guest]

Hi,Mark,

 

Think more about my questions.

 

You msut be very lonely doing TCM practice in Chicago

because ther are rare TCM clnic and doctors

in Chicago.I didn't homw work while I was search TCM

college.

 

It late in Taiwan now.Talk to you tomorrow.

see you

 

Jean

 

=====

 

 

--------------------------------

< ¨C¤Ñ³£ ©_¼¯ > www..tw

[Guest guest]

I think these statements support my contention that some of us see ourwonderful medicine debased into a religion.>>>>>>I second it

 

-

Mark Reese

Wednesday, October 24, 2001 8:10 AM

Re: Culture shock

I think these statements support my contention that some of us see ourwonderful medicine debased into a religion.You are savage. (It's just like I am doing the acutepuncture to WM. Ha!Ha!)>> Anywise, I believe sooooooo much in TCM and no I do not need to see> scientific data.> I have experienced the wonders of TCM on myself... and that is enough to> make me a believer.>> I believe Buddha speaks on healing... and says that some people will notbe> healed, regardless of the modality used.Hallelujah!!!!Mark ReeseChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

manymore Westerners seem to seeking out something different then what they areused to. Maybe that speaks for itself

>>>You can say the same about TCM. WM is by far the more popular medicine in China as well as Asia. Again this tone of one against the other is futile there is strength and weakness in both.

Alon

 

-

Teresa Hall

Monday, October 15, 2001 8:52 PM

Re: Culture shock

Hi Jean <insert smile>> Hi, Groups,>> Do you feel that you get shock in my question> yesterday? How dare you (Jean Su) could say TCM & WM> in that way? You do against the tendency of modern> science.No not shocked!>> Every thing should have scientific evidences to prove.> Other wise, you are not the people of modern society.> You are savage. (It's just like I am doing the acute> puncture to WM. Ha!Ha!)Prior to going to TCM school... I work in a Scientific Research lab. Westudied alcoholism in rats... actually more specifically pyrithiamineinduced thiamine deficiency. Then we look at the brains. One of thethings, I learned is that if you massage the data enough, one will findsomething significant !!Anywise, I believe sooooooo much in TCM and no I do not need to seescientific data. I know it has worked for thousands and thousands of peopleover the years, and that is good enough for me.I have experienced the wonders of TCM on myself... and that is enough tomake me a believer.I am grateful that in this life that I can practice TCM... in my past life,I could not practice only watch and observe because I was a female, howevermy Uncle new very much!>> Few years ago, I met a Ph.D. of KYOTO University, he> is Taiwanese, and also, he has good gifted talent of> Qi4-Kun. When he us his finger tip point your meridum> (points), from far distance (100cm) You will feel the> heat flu fluently in your channel .He didn't do this> performance all the time, I requested him to do so. He> even didn't use needle., only finger tip.>> Am I crazy? No, My mind was clear .It was in a office> of our school many people also stayed in that office> at that moment.This does not surprise me much... because I can only imagine how powerfulthe mind is, and the more one becomes united with the Universe and all itsabundant energy, well many things are possible!>> What if the hypothesis of research go the wrong way,> should we trust the result of scientific evidences?Based on my experiences... I would find it very difficult to ever rely soleyon Scientific standards!I believe people will seek the Medicine that resonates with them... manymore Westerners seem to seeking out something different then what they areused to. Maybe that speaks for itself! Maybe we are already seeing thatpeople are searching for more then a proven scientific method.I believe Buddha speaks on healing... and says that some people will not behealed, regardless of the modality used.Thank you Jeansu for the discussion!!!TeresaBelieve nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if Ihave said it,unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." -- The BuddhaChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

What the hell does that have to do with anything? In your words, Hah!

 

 

-

" Jeansu " <jeansu009

 

Wednesday, October 24, 2001 10:35 AM

Re: Culture shock

 

 

> Hi,Mark,

>

> How much do you love your job?

> How much do you love your patients?

> How much do you love TCM?

>

> From the bottom of your heart!!

> And how much do you love human being?

>

> Jean

>

>

> =====

>

>

> --------------------------------

> < ¨C¤Ñ³£ ©_¼¯ > www..tw

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

My first intro to TCM came thru a Sholin priest. After 2 yrs of training in

Qi Gong ,pointing and touch therapy I have stopped trying to explain how it

works. Western minds simply will mot except it.Although I use Qi Gong on

about 50% of my clients few are aware of it at the time.

And I'm aware that my limited understanding of Chinese culture greatly

reduces my ability to excel in my chosen craft I have been able to help

hundreds of people regain health thru TCM.

The hardest part of the task is trying to explain that I don't care what

name western medicine has put on there " disease " that I am going to treat

The whole person and not just the disease. -

" Teresa Hall " <Teresa.bodywork4u

 

Monday, October 15, 2001 11:52 PM

Re: Culture shock

 

 

> Hi Jean <insert smile>

>

> > Hi, Groups,

> >

> > Do you feel that you get shock in my question

> > yesterday? How dare you (Jean Su) could say TCM & WM

> > in that way? You do against the tendency of modern

> > science.

>

> No not shocked!

> >

> > Every thing should have scientific evidences to prove.

> > Other wise, you are not the people of modern society.

> > You are savage. (It's just like I am doing the acute

> > puncture to WM. Ha!Ha!)

>

> Prior to going to TCM school... I work in a Scientific Research lab. We

> studied alcoholism in rats... actually more specifically pyrithiamine

> induced thiamine deficiency. Then we look at the brains. One of the

> things, I learned is that if you massage the data enough, one will find

> something significant !!

>

> Anywise, I believe sooooooo much in TCM and no I do not need to see

> scientific data. I know it has worked for thousands and thousands of

people

> over the years, and that is good enough for me.

> I have experienced the wonders of TCM on myself... and that is enough to

> make me a believer.

>

> I am grateful that in this life that I can practice TCM... in my past

life,

> I could not practice only watch and observe because I was a female,

however

> my Uncle new very much!

> >

> > Few years ago, I met a Ph.D. of KYOTO University, he

> > is Taiwanese, and also, he has good gifted talent of

> > Qi4-Kun. When he us his finger tip point your meridum

> > (points), from far distance (100cm) You will feel the

> > heat flu fluently in your channel .He didn't do this

> > performance all the time, I requested him to do so. He

> > even didn't use needle., only finger tip.

> >

> > Am I crazy? No, My mind was clear .It was in a office

> > of our school many people also stayed in that office

> > at that moment.

>

> This does not surprise me much... because I can only imagine how powerful

> the mind is, and the more one becomes united with the Universe and all its

> abundant energy, well many things are possible!

> >

> > What if the hypothesis of research go the wrong way,

> > should we trust the result of scientific evidences?

> Based on my experiences... I would find it very difficult to ever rely

soley

> on Scientific standards!

>

> I believe people will seek the Medicine that resonates with them... many

> more Westerners seem to seeking out something different then what they are

> used to. Maybe that speaks for itself! Maybe we are already seeing that

> people are searching for more then a proven scientific method.

>

> I believe Buddha speaks on healing... and says that some people will not

be

> healed, regardless of the modality used.

>

> Thank you Jeansu for the discussion!!!

>

> Teresa

>

> Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if

I

> have said it,

> unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. "

>

> -- The Buddha

>

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think we should be careful here. . . .we're heading back into a

controversy that we locked into two years ago, and it didn't really go

anywhere. I don't want to personally take a stance which I feel is

reasonable and then be attacked to say that I see Chinese medicine as a

religion.

 

I think saying that " our wonderful medicine is being debased into a

religion " is a judgement, and that there is no data, theory, or

intellectual argument expressed in the posts to indicate otherwise.

Just opinion and emotion.

 

It seems a bit culturally biased to me that Chinese medicine should be

examined by the criteria of biomedicine, but not that Western medicine

should be examined by the criteria of Chinese medicine and science. And

we should be careful of cultural biase in our posts. Jeansu doesn't

have perfect command of the English language, and we should be careful

not to take the various exclamations as inflammatory. Jeansu also has,

however, a greater access to Chinese culture and medicine than many of

us on this list.

 

I've practiced Chinese medicine for over twenty years, and I am still

struggling with learning medical Chinese, mastering pattern

differentiation, and all of the nuances of the medicine. I hope to work

on this for the rest of my life. It does not mean that it is my

'religion'. I am an observant Jew who practices Chinese medicine.

 

There is a tremendous amount of case history literature in Chinese that

few people on this list have access to. I've mentioned this several

times, so to say that people who want to practice a more traditional

approach to Chinese medicine are being 'religious', I am sorry, this

isn't going to wash. No one is saying that clinical studies shouldn't

be done.

 

 

 

 

On Wednesday, October 24, 2001, at 08:55 AM, ALON MARCUS wrote:

 

> I think these statements support my contention that some of us see our

> wonderful medicine debased into a religion.

>

> >>>>>>I second it

>

[Guest guest]

The hardest part of the task is trying to explain that I don't care whatname western medicine has put on there " disease" that I am going to treatThe whole person and not just the disease

>>Why do you feel you have too

Alon

 

-

Richard Campbell

Wednesday, October 24, 2001 11:10 AM

Re: Culture shock

My first intro to TCM came thru a Sholin priest. After 2 yrs of training inQi Gong ,pointing and touch therapy I have stopped trying to explain how itworks. Western minds simply will mot except it.Although I use Qi Gong onabout 50% of my clients few are aware of it at the time.And I'm aware that my limited understanding of Chinese culture greatlyreduces my ability to excel in my chosen craft I have been able to helphundreds of people regain health thru TCM.The hardest part of the task is trying to explain that I don't care whatname western medicine has put on there " disease" that I am going to treatThe whole person and not just the disease. -"Teresa Hall" <Teresa.bodywork4uMonday, October 15, 2001 11:52 PMRe: Culture shock> Hi Jean <insert smile>>> > Hi, Groups,> >> > Do you feel that you get shock in my question> > yesterday? How dare you (Jean Su) could say TCM & WM> > in that way? You do against the tendency of modern> > science.>> No not shocked!> >> > Every thing should have scientific evidences to prove.> > Other wise, you are not the people of modern society.> > You are savage. (It's just like I am doing the acute> > puncture to WM. Ha!Ha!)>> Prior to going to TCM school... I work in a Scientific Research lab. We> studied alcoholism in rats... actually more specifically pyrithiamine> induced thiamine deficiency. Then we look at the brains. One of the> things, I learned is that if you massage the data enough, one will find> something significant !!>> Anywise, I believe sooooooo much in TCM and no I do not need to see> scientific data. I know it has worked for thousands and thousands ofpeople> over the years, and that is good enough for me.> I have experienced the wonders of TCM on myself... and that is enough to> make me a believer.>> I am grateful that in this life that I can practice TCM... in my pastlife,> I could not practice only watch and observe because I was a female,however> my Uncle new very much!> >> > Few years ago, I met a Ph.D. of KYOTO University, he> > is Taiwanese, and also, he has good gifted talent of> > Qi4-Kun. When he us his finger tip point your meridum> > (points), from far distance (100cm) You will feel the> > heat flu fluently in your channel .He didn't do this> > performance all the time, I requested him to do so. He> > even didn't use needle., only finger tip.> >> > Am I crazy? No, My mind was clear .It was in a office> > of our school many people also stayed in that office> > at that moment.>> This does not surprise me much... because I can only imagine how powerful> the mind is, and the more one becomes united with the Universe and all its> abundant energy, well many things are possible!> >> > What if the hypothesis of research go the wrong way,> > should we trust the result of scientific evidences?> Based on my experiences... I would find it very difficult to ever relysoley> on Scientific standards!>> I believe people will seek the Medicine that resonates with them... many> more Westerners seem to seeking out something different then what they are> used to. Maybe that speaks for itself! Maybe we are already seeing that> people are searching for more then a proven scientific method.>> I believe Buddha speaks on healing... and says that some people will notbe> healed, regardless of the modality used.>> Thank you Jeansu for the discussion!!!>> Teresa>> Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter ifI> have said it,> unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.">> -- The Buddha>>>>> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcarepractitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializingin Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,including board approved online continuing education.>> http://www..org>>

[Guest guest]

I think saying that "our wonderful medicine is being debased into a religion" is a judgement, and that there is no data, theory, or intellectual argument expressed in the posts to indicate otherwise. Just opinion and emotion

>>>I do not think he was saying it is a religion but that some of us react to it as though it is a religion i.e. belief without support

Alon

 

-

 

Wednesday, October 24, 2001 11:52 AM

Re: Culture shock

I think we should be careful here. . . .we're heading back into a controversy that we locked into two years ago, and it didn't really go anywhere. I don't want to personally take a stance which I feel is reasonable and then be attacked to say that I see Chinese medicine as a religion.I think saying that "our wonderful medicine is being debased into a religion" is a judgement, and that there is no data, theory, or intellectual argument expressed in the posts to indicate otherwise. Just opinion and emotion.It seems a bit culturally biased to me that Chinese medicine should be examined by the criteria of biomedicine, but not that Western medicine should be examined by the criteria of Chinese medicine and science. And we should be careful of cultural biase in our posts. Jeansu doesn't have perfect command of the English language, and we should be careful not to take the various exclamations as inflammatory. Jeansu also has, however, a greater access to Chinese culture and medicine than many of us on this list.I've practiced Chinese medicine for over twenty years, and I am still struggling with learning medical Chinese, mastering pattern differentiation, and all of the nuances of the medicine. I hope to work on this for the rest of my life. It does not mean that it is my 'religion'. I am an observant Jew who practices Chinese medicine.There is a tremendous amount of case history literature in Chinese that few people on this list have access to. I've mentioned this several times, so to say that people who want to practice a more traditional approach to Chinese medicine are being 'religious', I am sorry, this isn't going to wash. No one is saying that clinical studies shouldn't be done. On Wednesday, October 24, 2001, at 08:55 AM, ALON MARCUS wrote:

I think these statements support my contention that some of us see ourwonderful medicine debased into a religion.>>>>>>I second it

[Guest guest]

Good moring ,Mark,

 

It's sun shine and warm out of my window.Wheather here

like summer.

 

>What the hell does that have to do with

anything? & nbsp; In your words, Hah!

 

O!No!

It is not my word.It is the sound from your the bottom

of your heart.and ,you don't know how to face it.You

chose the way escape from it.

 

Since you are an excellent doctor(both WM and

TCM),maybe famous doctor in Chicago area,

,You have to face those questions,otherwise,you will

be very unhappy and angry all the time when you face

you job, you patient and TCM ,and other racial of

human being.

 

You have to go through this bottle neck,no matter

which of each you worship more(you can choice any one

you like,no problem at all.I am not discrimination who

is better than the other,I only request equal position

and respect to each other.)

 

You might judge that I treat TCM like religen,and I am

telling you ,I am not.I like TCM because I do the

experimental by my self(I dringk herbal tea and raw

herbal formula all the time,Have you drink it before?

the anthrax formula, I tasted most of the herbals,and

it is humless according my experience.)

 

But, your reaction make me feel you worship WM more

than me.

Jean

*************************************

 

 

Hi,Mark,

 

How much do you love your job?

How much do you love your patients?

How much do you love TCM?

 

From the bottom of your heart!!

And how much do you love human being?

 

Jean

 

 

 

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< ¨C¤Ñ³£ ©_¼¯ > www..tw

[Guest guest]

On the issue of Chinese medicine as a

religion, I think there is a further

point that should be considered. What

kind of religion is it? Western or

Chinese.

 

Consider this quotation from Lin Yu Tang's

My Country, My People (here taken from

the first edition, 1935, John Day, page

106):

 

" To the West, it seems hardly imaginable that the relationship

between man and man (which is morality) could be maintained without

reference to a Supreme Being, while to the chinese it is equally

amazing that men should not, or could not, behave toward one another

as decent beings without thinking of their indirect relationship

through a third party. "

 

To qualify as a valid object of faith in

the Christian sense, something must be

unproveable, for if it can be proven,

then it does not require faith. This

was a characteristic of the miracle cults

from which Christianity evolved.

 

Yet to the Chinese mind, all knowledge

is subjective and all truth is relative,

change being the universal constant.

 

So if we're going to talk about Chinese

medicine as a religion, we might want to

give some thought to whose religion it

is...or isn't.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Dr.,

 

Thank you for your support.

 

English is not my mother language,I might use wrong

word during discussion.

 

But,I don't think TCM is a relign because I studied

relign very much.I know what relign is.

 

Chinese culture is a whole(yuan) culture.

Anything(TCM,chinese philosophy, fortune teller,living

enviornment,I-Ching ,all connect with gold

,wood,water,fire ,earth in our daily life.)

( I am going to say that star sign of five branch,

gold,wood,water ,fire,earth is not quite correct

during my stduy when you use wu-sin explain TCM.I am

going to figure out the new model in the future,and I

am almost done by now.just need some references to

support)

 

TCM is not a relign.Ancient TCM doctor use special

language to explain the disease or malfunction of

body,but ,they all follow a special rule,from 1000s

year until now,same special rule.Modern people(us)

almost can't understand those special rule and special

language.Then we acuse TCM is not scientific,

TCM is a relign,I might say this is not correct.

 

I think this is also not a good atitute when people

do research or experiment,no matter WM or TCM.

 

Jean

 

 

 

 

 

 

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< ¨C¤Ñ³£ ©_¼¯ > www..tw

[Guest guest]

I am not put TCM and WM in both good / bad,right /wrong, in two side of evil or justice. I onlyrequest while some claim he is expert of TCM, he haveto reach the level of Chinese's standard, in ourstandard of TCM, not known only a little be herbs,doing few herbal researches,then, all the TCM have tofollow the way of very few scientific evidences.>>>Does looking at results in TCM hospital in China count? Or should we forget about evaluation!!

Alon

[Guest guest]

What if the hypothesis of research go the wrong way,should we trust the result of scientific evidences

>>>Again how about just looking at outcome. Forget explanations.

Alon

[Guest guest]

please don't doing personal attack

>>>>I have never attacked you

Alon

[Guest guest]

Hi,ALON,

 

>>>I do not think he was saying it is a religion but

> that some of us react to it as though it is a

> religion i.e. belief without support

> Alon

 

Under what kind of " belief without support " ?

Have you do every experimeant by yourself to provide

the supportive evidences in both WM and TCM?Have you

been taste every medication(Both WM and TCM)

while you do treatment?Have you been acupuncture

your salf for treatment to feel the feeling?

 

How do you know that it is a belief without support

in TCM?

 

Jean

 

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< ¨C¤Ñ³£ ©_¼¯ > www..tw

[Guest guest]

Hi,ALON,

 

>>>I do not think he was saying it is a religion but

> that some of us react to it as though it is a

> religion i.e. belief without support

> Alon

 

Under what kind of " belief without support " ?

Have you do every experimeant by yourself to provide

the supportive evidences in both WM and TCM?Have you

been taste every medication(Both WM and TCM)

while you do treatment?Have you been acupuncture

your salf for treatment to feel the feeling?

 

How do you know that it is a belief without support

in TCM?

 

Jean

 

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< ¨C¤Ñ³£ ©_¼¯ > www..tw

[Guest guest]

Hi,alon,

 

> What if the hypothesis of research go the wrong way,

> should we trust the result of scientific evidences

> >>>Again how about just looking at outcome. Forget

> explanations.

> Alon

 

Once again,I would like to ask you,Alon,

How do you know that TCM only looking at outcome?

 

Let's talk in this way:

 

You(WM) are the pilot of air plane,you always fly very

fast.

I (TCM) am/is ship,and speed is not quite fast as you

did.

 

We start in different places,and The final stop is

USA.

 

Now,The pilot demand the ship driver have do the

procedures like the airplan(take off..and so on)

while captain drive the boat.

 

Do you think the captain can make the ship go to USA

if he follow the direction of airplain pilot?

Even,Can he make the ship move if he really follow the

order of the pilot?

 

How is your opinions?

 

Jean

 

 

 

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< ¨C¤Ñ³£ ©_¼¯ > www..tw