Guest guest Posted November 5, 2001 Report Share Posted November 5, 2001 When I spoke with Paul Unschuld at Pacific Symposium, he said something curious. He said that chinese medicine does not conceive of an innate tendency for the body to heal from disease and all medical texts are focused upon active intervention to correct the body's failing in this area. He contrasted this to greek medicine which felt that merely by removing obstacles to cure, the body would spontaneously achieve health. Thus, pure water, wholesome food and exercise were all that was needed. Does this seem correct to those who have wide access to premodern medical texts? How does qi gong and food therapy fit into this hypothesis? What ramifications does it have for our practices? Is this another example of us projecting our western ideas onto chinese culture because of our lack of exposure? -- , VOICE: (858) 946-0070 FAX: (858) 946-0067 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2001 Report Share Posted November 5, 2001 Very interesting, indeed. I'd like to contribute the thoughts expressed on classical theory by Shigihasa Kuriyama, who wrote a text " The Expressiveness of the Body " comparing Greek and Chinese medicine. In discussing Nei Jing medicine, he points out that health was identified as living within an innate cosmic order of time, season, social strata and behavior, which guaranteed health, and that either breaking this order or chaos in the environment (pathogenic, seasonal, cosmic) brought disease. At least in the acupuncture theory perspective, the idea was to restore the individual to harmony with the cosmic order, and then the disease would disappear. An example is with wind. Thee are correct winds (zheng feng) and evil winds (xie feng) or empty winds (xu feng). Correct winds blew in the right season and the right direction. Evil or empty winds deviated from the norm. As Kuriyama says, " they were evil because they contravened against an ideal order. Their intrusion was the intrusion of chaos. " On Monday, November 5, 2001, at 05:51 PM, > When I spoke with Paul Unschuld at Pacific Symposium, he said something > curious. He said that chinese medicine does not conceive of an innate > tendency for the body to heal from disease and all medical texts are > focused upon active intervention to correct the body's failing in this > area. He contrasted this to greek medicine which felt that merely by > removing obstacles to cure, the body would spontaneously achieve > health. Thus, pure water, wholesome food and exercise were all that > was needed. Does this seem correct to those who have wide access to > premodern medical texts? How does qi gong and food therapy fit into > this hypothesis? What ramifications does it have for our practices? > Is this another example of us projecting our western ideas onto chinese > culture because of our lack of exposure? > > > -- > Chinese Herbs > > VOICE: (858) 946-0070 > FAX: (858) 946-0067 > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2001 Report Share Posted November 6, 2001 Hi,Prof. This is my answer in TCM approach. >He said that chinese medicine does not conceive of an innate tendency for the body to heal from disease I may said:not correct. The Qi Kun is base on the innate Qi which every one all got since he/she was born.Qi kun or innate-kun(ne-kun)strength the born nature Qi very much.Therefore, Peeple who practice Qi-kun can increase heath condition or cure diseases of the body. Where is the location born nature Qi is?there are few parts,1. kindey yang Qi.This is born nature Qi. 2.Yuan-Qi(the original Qi)3.San-Jon Qi(in the middle between nipple tip(chest ,meridian).Those Qi circulate every moment and never stop until we die.Therefore,every one all own his own born nature Qi,vital energy.positive Qi inside body,and circulate very well day by day. If your body is in heathy condition,the vital enegy will help you prevent evil Qi attack(no matter sick Qi or evil spirit,none of any bad thing can attack you if your vital enegy is strong enough).Vital energy can defense any evil thing,xia Qi.We also have a wonderful poem about vital energy:The song of Postive Qi. It said:There are postive Qi between the sky and earth.It flood every where around the universe.Up in the sky,it is Sun,stars.Down to the earth,it become the mountains and rivers...... Since positive Qi in the world and human body positive Qi are the same Qi.therefore: 1.heathy enviorment Qi make people healty(Do you remember I mentioned this before,there are molecule of anything and some people can lived only by ate air.and I suggested we should turn the enviorment back to 1000s years ago) 2.If the enviorment Qi is very bad.people still own his own positive qi,and if his positive Qi is strong enough,although the enviornment is exetremely bad(anthrax inffected),he can stiil survival very well. amd never get infected. 3.If enviornment Qi is no good(evil Qi every where,polutions or xia Qi from the nature),and people's positive Qi is not strong enough, then he will get illness. 4. Some people's born nature Qi is very weak(not enough positive Qi,not strong vital energy),so,he sicked all the time since he was born.If we increase his Qi by herbs or by Qi-kun practice or pour Qi into him/her body by some Qi-Kun master,his inner vital energy will get strong. (please don't pour Qi to any one if your inner Qi is not strone enough.This will weaken your positive Qi unless you practice Qi-Kun very well and really gain positive Qi very much from the enviornment.) So, all the Qi in the universe are in one type(this is Tai-Gi,become " one " ,jsut like the development of TCM " one goes for ever " ). " one' can seprate into Two:Yin and yang.positive and negetive.This is " Two-Yi " .Yin an yang. The whole theory of TCM are all base on Qi,no matter on acupuncture or herbal medicine,Qi kun threapy or ,many many others,all connected with Qi,and " one goes for ever " and never changed. The purpose of TCM treatment is make your inner Qi balence with the outside Qi into a harmony and keep an unsteady balence. >He contrasted this to greek medicine which felt that merely by removing obstacles to cure, the body would spontaneously achieve health. I don't know greek medicine.But TCM is base on what I mentioned above.Qi push the blood ,push the liquid of the body circulate all over the body. >How does qi gong and food therapy fit into this hypothesis? About food therapy ,they are all basic on the TCM herbaology.We chose some harmless herbs ,herbs get good benefit for the body or herbs got medicine function,cooked with foods(Vegitables,Chicken,fish ,meat,Tofu...)by using the same theory of herbology.This prcedure make medicine easy to take,and easy to accept by patient and normal people. These(Qi-kun and food threapy) approaches can make vital energy strong very much. If some patient lack of blood ,we might suggest by using si-wu-tang(four herbs) cooked with chicken or fish(chicken is better than fish,and the soup is black color). Si-Wu-Tang's Di-huang might cause slowing down stomach digestion or make some Xu-fire people feel thirty after take the si-wu-tang chicken soup(meat also can be eat).Therefore,if patient(or people) who got these problem,he had better not have it.Or the doctor will add some herb to help the digesting of the stomach or prevent thirsty situation after take si-wu-tang chicken soup. This food formula can increase patient's blood Quality because it is also add protein. I think it is winter now in western,May be you can try to cook once in a very low dosage of raw herbs if you got the herbs:si-wu-tang chicken soup. add a little be salt after cooked. Jean ===== -------------------------------- < ¨C¤Ñ³£ ©_¼¯ > www..tw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2001 Report Share Posted November 6, 2001 Z'ev, It sounds from Todd's description of his chat with Paul Unschuld that what was being discussed was a comparison between modes of " clinical " practice in the ancient systems of Greece and China. Not having been party to the discussion, I can only surmise this on the basis of the fact that what Z'ev has pointed out is accurate regarding the theoretical framework. So I think the curious remark of Unschuld should be understood in the narrow framework of the characteristics of medical intervention in ancient Greece and ancient China. If I further understand the point you're relaying it's that Unschuld was saying that the Greeks tended to rely on letting the body heal itself, while the Chinese pursued a path of more proactive interventions. In large part, it is precisely this proactive approach to medical intervention that does indeed typify ancient Chinese medicine. I had this explained to me one day by an entire class of some two dozen doctors, professors and post-graduate students at the university in Chengdu. I was the teacher in this class which is why there were so many assembled. It was a class on the roots of English words in Greek myths, for that matter. What was pointed out to me when the discussion rolled around, as it always did to some aspect of Chinese medicine, to the passage in the Nei Jing in the Treatise on Harmony With the Four Seasons, was that through correct understanding and application of the various theories, a doctor of Chinese medicine can predict the future course of a disease and intervene so as to prevent it from developing. There was general agreement in the classroom that this principle does indeed characterize the very essence of Chinese medicine, the pro-active intervention putting to use various agents and methods to restore harmony and prevent future disharmony. I'd say food therapy and qi4 gong1 practice represent some sort of high degree of this very strategy wherein one's daily actions are conceived and conducted in such a way as to maintain this harmony. Perhaps what was on Unschuld's mind was how important it may yet prove to be for us to focus more attention on the comparison of these two ancient systems of medicine. There is a theme in his work that suggests a lively exchange of ideas and artifacts between ancient Greece and China. In the days when the Persian Empire came to an end through a long series of wars with the Greeks, China itself was nearing the end of the Zhou dynasty when so much of the philsophical material from which medical theory evolved was being codified. And there was already movement of people, goods and ideas along the ancient Silk road. There's a curious story indeed in Needham (sorry I don't recall the citation it may be in the little book of lectures from City University in Hong Kong delivered in 1981) where he talks about an ancient Chinese myth of Hua Ren, a proto-alchemist who appeared in very early times bearing a great deal of knowledge about the nature of things and their interactive potentials. I made this point the other day in response to Fruehauf's depiction of traditional Chinese medicine in his piece on the crisis we face in the subject today. The Chinese have been incorporating knowledge, substances and methodologies from other parts of the world into their traditional medicine for as long back as we can trace. This is one of the very curious characteristics of the Chinese in general, i.e. their attitude and conduct with respect to foreigners. The whole country has been under foreign rule every several centuries or so for millennia. Yet something so distinctive has continued to develop, nourishing itself on each new wave of influences from abroad. I don't know enough about the way that ancient Greeks practiced medicine, but it seems to me that what Unschuld was saying was more about the methods employed to restore harmony and balance than with the underlying notion that there is an essential harmony in nature which equates with health. I think that if and when we can examine more historical data about the intercourse between these two ancient parts of the world, and particularly the agency of the ancient Persian empire, that the detailed meaning of such comparisons will become clearer. Anybody familiar with the archaeological work being done at San Xing Dui? Are there any history buffs on this list? I would love to have some publishabe material that addressed this area. Ken , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > Very interesting, indeed. > > I'd like to contribute the thoughts expressed on classical theory by > Shigihasa Kuriyama, who wrote a text " The Expressiveness of the Body " > comparing Greek and Chinese medicine. In discussing Nei Jing medicine, > he points out that health was identified as living within an innate > cosmic order of time, season, social strata and behavior, which > guaranteed health, and that either breaking this order or chaos in the > environment (pathogenic, seasonal, cosmic) brought disease. At least in > the acupuncture theory perspective, the idea was to restore the > individual to harmony with the cosmic order, and then the disease would > disappear. > > An example is with wind. Thee are correct winds (zheng feng) and evil > winds (xie feng) or empty winds (xu feng). Correct winds blew in the > right season and the right direction. Evil or empty winds deviated from > the norm. As Kuriyama says, " they were evil because they contravened > against an ideal order. Their intrusion was the intrusion of chaos. " > > > On Monday, November 5, 2001, at 05:51 PM, > > > When I spoke with Paul Unschuld at Pacific Symposium, he said something > > curious.?He said that chinese medicine does not conceive of an innate > > tendency for the body to heal from disease and all medical texts are > > focused upon active intervention to correct the body's failing in this > > area.?He contrasted this to greek medicine which felt that merely by > > removing obstacles to cure, the body would spontaneously achieve > > health.?Thus, pure water, wholesome food and exercise were all that > > was needed.?Does this seem correct to those who have wide access to > > premodern medical texts??How does qi gong and food therapy fit into > > this hypothesis??What ramifications does it have for our practices?? > > Is this another example of us projecting our western ideas onto chinese > > culture because of our lack of exposure? > > ?> > > > -- > > Chinese Herbs > > > > VOICE:?(858) 946-0070 > > FAX:?(858) 946-0067 > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > > education. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2001 Report Share Posted November 6, 2001 Z'ev mentions righteous or correct and evil winds. Seems to me that the zheng3 qi4 is, in some (perhaps not all) respects, analogous to the vis mediatrix naturae of Greco-Roman medicine. Interestingly, there is a principle in Chinese pediatrics which says, discontinue medication when the disease is half cured. The implication here is that, given a push in the right direction, the child will heal themself (while continued medication might cause an unwanted adverse reaction). In my own practice of pediatrics, I have witnessed the wisdom of this principle on numerous occasions. I think this also points up, as Alon was saying a week or so ago, the necessity of patient follow-up. I have had many cases where the patient discontinued therapy before I thought the case was a fait accompli. In my mind, the outcome was less than perfect. Yet, a couple or several years later, I found out the patient's condition had spontaneously cured itself after discontinuing therapy AND THAT they thought the therapy with me had been the cause or catalyst of their recovery. Bottom line, I'm not at all convinced Chinese medicine has no concept similar to the vis mediatrix naturae. Bob , yulong@m... wrote: > Z'ev, > > It sounds from Todd's description of his > chat with Paul Unschuld that what was being > discussed was a comparison between modes of > " clinical " practice in the ancient systems > of Greece and China. Not having been party > to the discussion, I can only surmise this > on the basis of the fact that what Z'ev > has pointed out is accurate regarding the > theoretical framework. > > So I think the curious remark of Unschuld > should be understood in the narrow framework > of the characteristics of medical intervention > in ancient Greece and ancient China. If I > further understand the point you're relaying > it's that Unschuld was saying that > the Greeks tended to rely on letting the > body heal itself, while the Chinese pursued > a path of more proactive interventions. > > In large part, it is precisely this proactive > approach to medical intervention that does > indeed typify ancient Chinese medicine. > I had this explained to me one day by > an entire class of some two dozen doctors, professors > and post-graduate students at the university > in Chengdu. I was the teacher in this class > which is why there were so many assembled. > It was a class on the roots of English words > in Greek myths, for that matter. > > What was pointed out to me when the discussion > rolled around, as it always did to some aspect > of Chinese medicine, to the passage in the Nei > Jing in the Treatise on Harmony With the Four Seasons, > was that through correct understanding and application > of the various theories, a doctor of Chinese medicine > can predict the future course of a disease and > intervene so as to prevent it from developing. > > There was general agreement in the classroom > that this principle does indeed characterize > the very essence of Chinese medicine, the > pro-active intervention putting to use various agents > and methods to restore harmony and prevent > future disharmony. > > I'd say food therapy and qi4 gong1 practice > represent some sort of high degree of this > very strategy wherein one's daily actions > are conceived and conducted in such a way > as to maintain this harmony. > > Perhaps what was on Unschuld's mind was > how important it may yet prove to be for > us to focus more attention on the comparison > of these two ancient systems of medicine. > There is a theme in his work that suggests > a lively exchange of ideas and artifacts > between ancient Greece and China. In the days when > the Persian Empire came to an end through a long series > of wars with the Greeks, China itself was nearing > the end of the Zhou dynasty when so much of the philsophical > material from which medical theory evolved > was being codified. And there was already movement of people, goods > and ideas along the ancient Silk road. > > There's a curious story indeed in Needham > (sorry I don't recall the citation it may > be in the little book of lectures from > City University in Hong Kong delivered in > 1981) where he talks about an ancient Chinese myth of > Hua Ren, a proto-alchemist who appeared in > very early times bearing a great deal of > knowledge about the nature of things and > their interactive potentials. > > I made this point the other day in response > to Fruehauf's depiction of traditional > Chinese medicine in his piece on the crisis > we face in the subject today. The Chinese > have been incorporating knowledge, substances > and methodologies from other parts of the world > into their traditional medicine for as long > back as we can trace. > > This is one of the very curious characteristics > of the Chinese in general, i.e. their attitude and > conduct with respect to foreigners. The whole country > has been under foreign rule every several centuries > or so for millennia. Yet something so distinctive > has continued to develop, nourishing itself on > each new wave of influences from abroad. > > I don't know enough about the way that ancient > Greeks practiced medicine, but it seems to me > that what Unschuld was saying was more about > the methods employed to restore harmony and > balance than with the underlying notion that > there is an essential harmony in nature which > equates with health. > > I think that if and when we can examine more > historical data about the intercourse between > these two ancient parts of the world, and > particularly the agency of the ancient Persian > empire, that the detailed meaning of such > comparisons will become clearer. > > Anybody familiar with the archaeological work > being done at San Xing Dui? > > Are there any history buffs on this list? > > I would love to have some publishabe material > that addressed this area. > > Ken > > > > , " " <zrosenbe@s...> > wrote: > > Very interesting, indeed. > > > > I'd like to contribute the thoughts expressed on classical theory > by > > Shigihasa Kuriyama, who wrote a text " The Expressiveness of the > Body " > > comparing Greek and Chinese medicine. In discussing Nei Jing > medicine, > > he points out that health was identified as living within an innate > > cosmic order of time, season, social strata and behavior, which > > guaranteed health, and that either breaking this order or chaos in > the > > environment (pathogenic, seasonal, cosmic) brought disease. At > least in > > the acupuncture theory perspective, the idea was to restore the > > individual to harmony with the cosmic order, and then the disease > would > > disappear. > > > > An example is with wind. Thee are correct winds (zheng feng) and > evil > > winds (xie feng) or empty winds (xu feng). Correct winds blew in > the > > right season and the right direction. Evil or empty winds deviated > from > > the norm. As Kuriyama says, " they were evil because they > contravened > > against an ideal order. Their intrusion was the intrusion of > chaos. " > > > > > > On Monday, November 5, 2001, at 05:51 PM, > > > > > When I spoke with Paul Unschuld at Pacific Symposium, he said > something > > > curious.?He said that chinese medicine does not conceive of an > innate > > > tendency for the body to heal from disease and all medical texts > are > > > focused upon active intervention to correct the body's failing in > this > > > area.?He contrasted this to greek medicine which felt that merely > by > > > removing obstacles to cure, the body would spontaneously achieve > > > health.?Thus, pure water, wholesome food and exercise were all > that > > > was needed.?Does this seem correct to those who have wide access > to > > > premodern medical texts??How does qi gong and food therapy fit > into > > > this hypothesis??What ramifications does it have for our > practices?? > > > Is this another example of us projecting our western ideas onto > chinese > > > culture because of our lack of exposure? > > > ?> > > > > -- > > > Chinese Herbs > > > > > > VOICE:?(858) 946-0070 > > > FAX:?(858) 946-0067 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > > > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > > > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a > variety > > > of professional services, including board approved online > continuing > > > education. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2001 Report Share Posted November 6, 2001 I forget the exact # but around 75% of all Disease's are self limiting. An average person will recover without any treatment I believe our Job is to assist in this process. - cha Monday, November 05, 2001 8:51 PM innate healing When I spoke with Paul Unschuld at Pacific Symposium, he said something curious. He said that chinese medicine does not conceive of an innate tendency for the body to heal from disease and all medical texts are focused upon active intervention to correct the body's failing in this area. He contrasted this to greek medicine which felt that merely by removing obstacles to cure, the body would spontaneously achieve health. Thus, pure water, wholesome food and exercise were all that was needed. Does this seem correct to those who have wide access to premodern medical texts? How does qi gong and food therapy fit into this hypothesis? What ramifications does it have for our practices? Is this another example of us projecting our western ideas onto chinese culture because of our lack of exposure? -- Chinese Herbs VOICE: (858) 946-0070 FAX: (858) 946-0067 Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2001 Report Share Posted November 6, 2001 Richard Campbell wrote: I forget the exact # but around 75% of all Disease's are self limiting. An average person will recover without any treatmentI believe our Job is to assist in this process. The art of medicine consists of amusing the patient, while nature cures the disease.....Voltaire Fernando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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