Shelf life, was Dr. Weil

[Guest guest]

Todd-

 

What kind of shelf life do you find with the dried extracts? I sincerely

doubt that the aromatic herbs have much shelf life in either bulk or

granulated form- at least I notice no strong aromas after a few months.

I've always been taught that freeze dried extracts had shorter

shelf-lives than dried powders because of surface area (although

freeze-dried extracts might retain volatiles better initially) and both

had considerably less shelf life than properly stored bulk herbs. I see

nothing in the extraction method for Chinese granules that would give

longer shelf-lives than for western freeze-dried herbs. Yet I find

practicioners who insist that they last indefinitely.

 

(That may be a side effect of laying out $5000 for a basic granule

pharmacy).

 

I generally assume 3 months shelf-life for an aromatic leaf (bulk) to a

couple years for a non-aromatic root or bark. Vacuum packaging will

extend these times. Some herbs will still work longer but require higher

doses when aged- others deteriorate too much.

 

Tinctures can deteriorate, contrary to popular opinion, depending upon

the herb, but probably hold their value longer than any other form and

many may as well be indefinite. The invigorating effects of alcohol

however may not be desirable and it doesn't actually evaporate with

dilution in warm water (once mixed with water, the water and alcohol

evaporate at about the same rate.)

 

Unlike Weil, I prefer to purchase my herbs fresh so I can smell, see and

feel them. Vitality is far harder to assess with any type of powder.

(Of course, mail order puts one at a distinct disadvantage, but you can

only mail-order herbs with long shelf-lives and grow or buy others in

person until you are sure of suppliers and learn their import schedules

for various herbs.)

 

Karen Vaughan

CreationsGarden

***************************************

Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment.

" Man is always worse than most people suspect, but also generally better

than most people dream. " --Reinhold Niebuhr

 

______________

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[Guest guest]

, Karen S Vaughan <creationsgarden@j...>

wrote:

-

>

> What kind of shelf life do you find with the dried extracts? I sincerely

> doubt that the aromatic herbs have much shelf life in either bulk or

> granulated form- at least I notice no strong aromas after a few months.

 

I have found my bo he, xing ren and xin yi hua, for example, to

maintain aroma for well over a year.

 

> I've always been taught that freeze dried extracts had shorter

> shelf-lives than dried powders because of surface area (although

> freeze-dried extracts might retain volatiles better initially) and both

> had considerably less shelf life than properly stored bulk herbs.

I see

> nothing in the extraction method for Chinese granules that would give

> longer shelf-lives than for western freeze-dried herbs. Yet I find

> practicioners who insist that they last indefinitely.

 

granules are not freezedried, but made from cooked extracts, which

means there are no active enzymes left to degrade the finished product.

they are also packed in light proof containers.

 

>

> (That may be a side effect of laying out $5000 for a basic granule

> pharmacy).

 

A basic granule pharmacy from KPC costs about $1500 actually (210

single herbs at the starter discount of 20%.)

>

> I generally assume 3 months shelf-life for an aromatic leaf (bulk) to a

> couple years for a non-aromatic root or bark. Vacuum packaging will

> extend these times.

 

some herbs have long shelf lifes in bulk BEFORE the package is opened.

Once exposed to light, air and given enzymatic degradation, this is

greatly shortened.

 

 

>

> Tinctures can deteriorate, contrary to popular opinion, depending upon

> the herb, but probably hold their value longer than any other form and

> many may as well be indefinite. The invigorating effects of alcohol

> however may not be desirable and it doesn't actually evaporate with

> dilution in warm water (once mixed with water, the water and alcohol

> evaporate at about the same rate.)

 

A virtue of tinctures no doubt, but unless they are 1:1, they are too

weak and too expensive for typical use. If they are 1:1, then I think

the relatively low dose of alcohol outweighs the energetics of the

alcohol. Traditional chinese use of alcohol called for consumption of

an entire glass of rice wine elixirs. I do not think a few droppers of

alcohol has much medicinal effect from the acohol itself. I used to

feel different, but have changed my mind from experience and careful

consideration.

>

> Unlike Weil, I prefer to purchase my herbs fresh so I can smell, see and

> feel them. Vitality is far harder to assess with any type of powder.

 

No doubt, but this requires a skill for assessment that I feel few

laypersons and even many professionals do not possess.

 

[Guest guest]

>

> Karen S Vaughan [creationsgarden]

> Wednesday, November 07, 2001 3:48 PM

>

> Re: Shelf life, was Dr. Weil

>

-

>

> What kind of shelf life do you find with the dried extracts? I

sincerely

> doubt that the aromatic herbs have much shelf life in either bulk or

> granulated form- at least I notice no strong aromas after a few

months.

> I've always been taught that freeze dried extracts had shorter

> shelf-lives than dried powders because of surface area (although

> freeze-dried extracts might retain volatiles better initially) and

both

> had considerably less shelf life than properly stored bulk herbs. I

see

> nothing in the extraction method for Chinese granules that would give

> longer shelf-lives than for western freeze-dried herbs. Yet I find

> practicioners who insist that they last indefinitely.

 

 

I agree... I have smelled and tasted many (extracted) granules that are

just weeks old and (to me) have little QI. Even a fresh granular's

taste (qi) does not come close to Bulk teas.

 

>

> (That may be a side effect of laying out $5000 for a basic granule

> pharmacy).

>

> I generally assume 3 months shelf-life for an aromatic leaf (bulk) to

a

> couple years for a non-aromatic root or bark. Vacuum packaging will

> extend these times. Some herbs will still work longer but require

higher

> doses when aged- others deteriorate too much.

 

 

My experience says similar. I have found by smell and taste that Most

herbs last quite a while- up to a year or more. Leafies even 6 months

or more. An these 6 month old herbs usually (still) smell stronger then

powders. Roots last very long. Although, I do get my herbs from

Mayway, vacuum packed, and they are STRONG, from the get-go. Strongest I

have seen. Though Todd is right, one can only know active constituents

through testing. Since I do not have that ability, I go my smell and

taste. I am always unclear when I hear that people had raw pharmacies

that went bad? Either they are starting with really bad herbs or they

just aren't being used. With minimum use you can keep a good turnover

and truly minimize herbs going bad.

 

-

 

>

> Tinctures can deteriorate, contrary to popular opinion, depending upon

> the herb, but probably hold their value longer than any other form and

> many may as well be indefinite. The invigorating effects of alcohol

> however may not be desirable and it doesn't actually evaporate with

> dilution in warm water (once mixed with water, the water and alcohol

> evaporate at about the same rate.)

[Guest guest]

>

>

> I agree... I have smelled and tasted many (extracted) granules that are

> just weeks old and (to me) have little QI. Even a fresh granular's

> taste (qi) does not come close to Bulk teas.

 

 

companies vary greatly in this area. You cannot generalize. My

experience is with KPC. I do not like most others. Also, smell of

granules is altered because they are on a carrier base, so this is not

a completely accurate gauge, either. I disagree with Jason. I have

been practicing for 14 years and find granules much much more reliable

in potency than raw. One of the most decisive factors is also the

errors made by patients in preparation. Laboratory controlled cooking

sidesteps these rampant errors. Anyone else with extensive experience

out there to comment? Mark Reese?

 

[Guest guest]

 

TODD>

> companies vary greatly in this area.  You cannot generalize.  My

> experience is with KPC.  I

do not like most others. 

 

 

I agree that KPC is one of the BEST... but...

 

Also, smell of

> granules is altered because they are on a carrier base, so this is

not

> a completely accurate gauge, either.

 

 

Taste and smell are important to me. 

 

TASTE: Once put in the water, is the base

dissolved?  When I drink a granular tea

it does not seem nearly as strong.  And

the effect on the body, at least for me, does not compare.  There is no way I can say the taste compares.

See experiment below.

SMELL: I am unsure why the base destroys the smell, I

am unsure of the chemistry. But just today I sampled multiple hit medicines, in

various bases including beeswax etc...they all had

very strong fragrances.

 

 I disagree with Jason.  I have

> been practicing for 14 years and find granules much much more

reliable

> in potency than raw.

 

 

**this is what I would like to hear an explanation of.  What is meant by much 'much' more reliability

in potency?  There is no way I can agree

that granules are more potent than raw herbs until there is some substantial

studies with some proof.  Someone with 14

years or 50 years experience really means little to me. Length of practice and

experience seems moot, one can find anyone (i.e. 20

years+ experience) that says anything...

If one starts with herb A, divides it in 2, makes an extract with 1/2,

and decocts the other, how is this herb suddenly transformed into a much 'much'

more potent product?  If it is there are

multiple potential problems that arise:

A)  It is said that the extracts

are tested for active constituents, to guarantee potency. IS this what is

meant? Problems with this:

      1) If one is gearing the

extraction process for this marker then one runs the risk of not extracting

equally all the components, and moving more and more towards pharmaceutical

based thinking.

      2) This guaranteed potency

and therefore a much different processing that originally intended, for a given

formula, would make sense that it is changing the overall properties of the

formula.  I can not imagine that herb's

constituents are extracted in the same ratio as making a decoction, so

therefore this supposed higher potency would not be higher in the same ratios

in a normally decocted formula, again changing the properties.  This is not bad, just a potential problem we

should realize.  We are no longer giving that

same classical formula/ preperation.  I even believe individual herbs singly

extracted in this manner are going to be different than the originally intended

functions, because some of the constituents will be less and some more.  This I believe is common knowledge,

correct.  Everyone knows that different

extraction methods yield different components in different herbs.  Therefore some methods will make an otherwise

useful herb useless (in a given situation). 

So there testing for the active (main) constituent, to me does not

guarantee anything.  It just guarantees

something that we might not expect.  

c) Quality of the original herb is moot, because they are coming from

the same source.  If someone is buying

inferior bulk herbs from a i.e. local Chinese herb

store then this is a different story. If one is letting herbs sit around until

they go bad, and do not have the common sense or knowledge not to use it- that

is also a different issue. Maybe 10 or 14 years ago one could not get quality herbs, that is not the case anymore. I have never

received raw herbs through MAYWAY that have not be

loaded with QI.  One could debate that

these herbs are inferior to herbs put in the KPC granules..

Well if that is the case buy the BULK from KPC's

supplier... Therefore same herb? 

 

So... If extracts are much more

potent, IS this good?  How is this known,

besides one's experience, because I hear plenty of Chinese doctors that say the

opposite?  Do you believe that the

formulas act exactly the same as a decoction, therefore just prescribing less

to accommodate the extra potency? If they are different, then is it a problem

that all our history, and 99% modern research is done with decoctions.

 

TODD: One of the most decisive factors is also the

> errors made by patients in

preparation. 

 

 

I am unsure about this? Errors? IS a patient

only cooking the herbs 5-10 minutes when they should cook for 35? OR an hour and ½?? We all would probably agree actual amount

of water does not really matter, it’s a matter

of drinking the tea over a given time... 

IT is not that hard, and really don't see how one could make such a

gross error that the herbs would be that much different?  Extracting herbs I feel is much more changing

(in original preparation methods intended) than possibly minor cooking errors,

which is still the intended decoction.  I

find people do not have problem with the process if it is explained clearly and

EASILY- Making it not to complex.

 

Experiment:

 

Take gui zhi tang, make a soup (decoction) see how it feels, get

under the covers, see how it feels, even eat the congee if you like.  Do the same with a liquid extract, then a

granule (different day of course).  I

have done these types of experiments, that is why I

vote RAW. See what you all think.

 

 

-

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi,Dr.,Prof.and all,

 

I would like to provide the opinion about the raw

herbs

, formula powder,granules,the use point in Taiwan an

din mainland.

 

A.The most excellent herbal formula is raw herbal

formula by decoct method both in Taiwan and

Mainland.Some hospitals in Mainland even provide the

service for delivery the decocted formula to home.

 

We all know this information in Taiwan(as well as

mainland ) that if you get really sick very

heavelly,you have to cook the raw herbs by

yourself.And you will recoverd very fast if

the doctor really provide the correct formula

according the correct four diagnosis steps of TCM.

 

Why?Because it is Do-we zhang sha Yao.And the raw

herbs

is under the most strong situation.Herbal formula is

partial of our daily life.The phamacy store's herbs

got good circulartion.

 

The raw herbs is not eazy too keep resh,therfore,Every

herb stroe 's boss all got their own speciall skill to

keep their raw herbs fresh.If you like to learn the

skill,be the totur of the boss,he will teach you.

Almost every old fasion TCM herbs store in Taiwan all

know how to keep and do concoct of herbs very well.

 

Mainland China controll the TCM herbs by

government(communism),therefore,I think(becasue I

didn't go to deep to their life),in some corners might

also reserve

these skill,but most of them didn't have their own

herbs store in private person,therefore maybe they

are not exist any more.

 

For the best quality of the RAW herbs.TCM doctor

should

learn how to choose the good quality and real herbs.

And,concoct the raw herbs by yourself is it is

necessary for cure patients.

 

Good quality herbs need to consider these condition:

1. real herb, not forged or use wrong one to

substitute.

2.herbs pick up in right seasons.

3.herb growing up in excellent condition,good quality.

4. good product place,for example Si-yang-Sen is from

Wesconsin.

 

The shelf time needs to consider the character of the

herbs,for some herbs,as long time as best,for example,

rice for treat spleen need to us the old years

one(some delicious rice cake need last year rice to

cook,fresh rice can't create the delicious taste.)

and some others.The Concoctology also an great

knowledge in TCM.

 

Use correct herbs(raw herbs,concoct herbs,mineral

herbs,frankincense,myrrh....)decoct in correct time,

correct fire(from strong fire to soft fire),

use correct water CC.

 

The raw herbs is the tradiciton effective formula.

 

B.Powders and pills:

Taiwan also product excellent TCM formula powders and

pill,they all fit the GMP.

,But ,as my understanding of the effect(I taste them

before,Gia-wei-Shio-Yo San and Leo-wei-di-hung-won.

for a not short period.I was over stressed in my job.

 

These two formula develop in two ways,one is from the

decoct formula turn into powder ,the othe is made by

raw herbs by follow the TCM " won " product procedures.

The second(won) is best then first.(powder and pill)

 

As my understanding,herbs powder only got 60-70-80%

effective according the quality of the

product.because,

 

1.the quality of the raw herbs the phamacy factory

used.if they chose high quality herbs,the effect is

excellent.if they chose the low quality herbs,you can

image the results.

 

2.during procedure,some chemistry changed not like the

 

tradition decoct way because the " fire "

degree(charcoal provide steady fire temperature and

pottery can make great one) and some herbs need cooked

first and some need cooked after.Maybe the phamacy

factory didn't or can't follow the whole old fashion

procedures so far.

 

3.the procedure to turn decoct juice into powder need

to add some satrch and the satrch might weak or dilute

the effect of the juice.

 

C.granules

We didn't use this type of TCM herbs .thry are rare in

Taiwan.But,In mainland,it is popular I guess.We can

buy it in Taiwan in some stores.I drink it once

before.It seems that granules defined their position

in soft drink for a very light dosage in herbs.

 

These are my opinions.

 

Sen-long Shi taste herbs.Every TCM doctor in Taiwan

all taste herbs by themselfs.More or less,we need some

real experiences.Then,you will know when your patient

drink it,it really need great courage in Western.Ha!

\(^-^)/!

 

 

Jean

 

=====

 

 

--------------------------------

< ¨C¤Ñ³£ ©_¼¯ > www..tw

[Guest guest]

>

> Jeansu [jeansu009]

> Thursday, November 08, 2001 10:27 PM

>

> RE: Re: Shelf life, was Dr. Weil

>

> 2.during procedure,some chemistry changed not like the

>

> tradition decoct way because the " fire "

> degree(charcoal provide steady fire temperature and

> pottery can make great one) and some herbs need cooked

> first and some need cooked after.Maybe the phamacy

> factory didn't or can't follow the whole old fashion

> procedures so far.

 

 

This point is huge I believe...

 

-Jason

[Guest guest]

Dr.,

 

>One thing that always has puzzled me in the states

(and possibly in China ; Taiwan) are that the herbs

are kept in those wooden drawers,

 

No,they didn't.there are small among herbs in those

wooden drawers,running out,add more in fresh.They keep

the others in a dry,air ciraulte weel places.Some

herbs wraped in thick paper to keep in a dry

condition.

some are smoky dry by some nature chemistry

staff,humless to the herbs(for prevent the herb worm).

 

constantly exposed to air...??

It is not exposed to air,it is exposed to sun light.

sun light dry can killing bacterias(isn't it morden

way?Yes!! Ha!)and keep the herbs in a very dry

condition.

 

We all have same feeling the rice from sun light dry

is more delicius then rice from mechine dry.Sun light

dry also can make some micro change to the herbs or

rice which we wtill unknow from scientific evidences

until now.

 

Taiwan is on a wet weather conditions than mainland

and US.Therefore,in ancient time,sun light dry is very

important for the herb stores.

 

Now,I think the herb stroes use machine(dehumidifier)

or refrigerator to help preseve herbs.

 

> This is one reason I think herb stores usually do

not have fresh herbs...

No,In taiwan,their herbs have to be fresh very

much.some customers are expert,too.If stores sale bad

herbs,the customer will gone.

 

 

Yes it is fast, but jars seem to make much more sense?

Opinions ?

if jars means big glass bottles,the answer is the

wooden drawer and thick paper also can dry the

wet,pervent the wet.Glass bottle will keep the

moisture in the bottle.

the herbs quality will turn bad very soon.

Glass bottles only preserve mineral or herbs wine.

 

We also make herb wine(according herbology plus rice

wine) for treatment Qi-kun or boxing

punch illness.Or ,for winter and daily drink,3-5 cc

a day or more to keep the body energy strong.

 

And, so many other way that hardly can tell.

 

That's why we all say that TCM is wisdom of ancient.

Wide like ocean.

 

 

Jean

 

 

=====

 

 

--------------------------------

< ¨C¤Ñ³£ ©_¼¯ > www..tw

[Guest guest]

I think herb storage works differently in different conditions. I find

jars in a dark closet to be the best where I live. I do think that air

circulation will hurt aromatic herbs. And jars contain the insects

reasonably, if you check so you get them before the larvae crawl out

along the jar threads. (Hanging strips of fly paper in the herb closet

helps with meal moths too.)

 

However when Rosita Arvigo moved to Belize where the air is very humid,

she had lots of trouble keeping her herbs in jars from molding. A local

curandero suggested that she use brown paper bags and her herbs stopped

getting moldy. Of course the climate is less variable there so she can

get fresh herbs frequently rather than one season a year as most of us

must do. If they lose potency and she replaces them regularly it is less

of a problem.

 

Perhaps conditions in Taiwan are more like those in Beliz.

 

Karen Vaughan

CreationsGarden

***************************************

Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment.

" Man is always worse than most people suspect, but also generally better

than most people dream. " --Reinhold Niebuhr

 

jeansu wrote:

They keep the others in a dry,air ciraulte weel places.Some

herbs wraped in thick paper to keep in a dry condition.

some are smoky dry by some nature chemistry

staff,humless to the herbs(for prevent the herb worm).

....

Taiwan is on a wet weather conditions than mainland

and US.Therefore,in ancient time,sun light dry is very

important for the herb stores.

 

______________

GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!

Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!

Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:

http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

[Guest guest]

Hi,Karen,

 

Yes,Weather in Taiwan is wet then US and north part

of mainland.

 

We usually use Yang-zi Chung to separate north part of

china and south part of main land.Taiwan is an island

and locate in very lower south corner of China,surrond

by sea,therefore, we get wet air almost 4 seasons.

 

But,mainland also use wooden drawer and paper to pack

herbs in the herb stores.

 

Jean

 

=====

 

 

--------------------------------

< ¨C¤Ñ³£ ©_¼¯ > www..tw

[Guest guest]

Hi,Karen,

 

let us think this way,

 

When you buy vagetables, and you keep it in the

plastic bag,what will happened? The fresh vagetabls

need to breath and water circulation if it is still

fresh.

 

The herbs after machine dry maybe still remain some

water and it still breath and circular in a very mild

situation(as well as after amputation,some patient

still feel leg pain,in Qi theory,maybe invisible

Qi still circulate after amputaion).

 

Wood drawer and paper provide fiber spece for air to

circulate which jars and plastic bag

can't,therefore,herbs can preseve in good condition

and the herbs still alive.

 

If the herb still alive,they will need good air

circulate when you preserve herbs.That 's what karen

saw.

 

Jean

 

 

 

=====

 

 

--------------------------------

< ¨C¤Ñ³£ ©_¼¯ > www..tw

[Guest guest]

I agree that KPC is one of the BEST... but...

>>>I like Min tong very much. But I think Quali are probably to strongest, however I do not like the powder aspect

Alon

 

-

 

Thursday, November 08, 2001 8:39 PM

RE: Re: Shelf life, was Dr. Weil

 

 

 

 

TODD>

> companies vary greatly in this area. You cannot generalize. My

> experience is with KPC. I do not like most others.

 

 

I agree that KPC is one of the BEST... but...

 

Also, smell of

> granules is altered because they are on a carrier base, so this is not

> a completely accurate gauge, either.

 

Taste and smell are important to me.

TASTE: Once put in the water, is the base dissolved? When I drink a granular tea it does not seem nearly as strong. And the effect on the body, at least for me, does not compare. There is no way I can say the taste compares. See experiment below.

SMELL: I am unsure why the base destroys the smell, I am unsure of the chemistry. But just today I sampled multiple hit medicines, in various bases including beeswax etc...they all had very strong fragrances.

 

I disagree with Jason. I have

> been practicing for 14 years and find granules much much more reliable

> in potency than raw.

 

 

**this is what I would like to hear an explanation of. What is meant by much 'much' more reliability in potency? There is no way I can agree that granules are more potent than raw herbs until there is some substantial studies with some proof. Someone with 14 years or 50 years experience really means little to me. Length of practice and experience seems moot, one can find anyone (i.e. 20 years+ experience) that says anything...

If one starts with herb A, divides it in 2, makes an extract with 1/2, and decocts the other, how is this herb suddenly transformed into a much 'much' more potent product? If it is there are multiple potential problems that arise:

A) It is said that the extracts are tested for active constituents, to guarantee potency. IS this what is meant? Problems with this:

1) If one is gearing the extraction process for this marker then one runs the risk of not extracting equally all the components, and moving more and more towards pharmaceutical based thinking.

2) This guaranteed potency and therefore a much different processing that originally intended, for a given formula, would make sense that it is changing the overall properties of the formula. I can not imagine that herb's constituents are extracted in the same ratio as making a decoction, so therefore this supposed higher potency would not be higher in the same ratios in a normally decocted formula, again changing the properties. This is not bad, just a potential problem we should realize. We are no longer giving that same classical formula/ preperation. I even believe individual herbs singly extracted in this manner are going to be different than the originally intended functions, because some of the constituents will be less and some more. This I believe is common knowledge, correct. Everyone knows that different extraction methods yield different components in different herbs. Therefore some methods will make an otherwise useful herb useless (in a given situation). So there testing for the active (main) constituent, to me does not guarantee anything. It just guarantees something that we might not expect.

c) Quality of the original herb is moot, because they are coming from the same source. If someone is buying inferior bulk herbs from a i.e. local Chinese herb store then this is a different story. If one is letting herbs sit around until they go bad, and do not have the common sense or knowledge not to use it- that is also a different issue. Maybe 10 or 14 years ago one could not get quality herbs, that is not the case anymore. I have never received raw herbs through MAYWAY that have not be loaded with QI. One could debate that these herbs are inferior to herbs put in the KPC granules.. Well if that is the case buy the BULK from KPC's supplier... Therefore same herb?

 

So... If extracts are much more potent, IS this good? How is this known, besides one's experience, because I hear plenty of Chinese doctors that say the opposite? Do you believe that the formulas act exactly the same as a decoction, therefore just prescribing less to accommodate the extra potency? If they are different, then is it a problem that all our history, and 99% modern research is done with decoctions.

 

TODD: One of the most decisive factors is also the

> errors made by patients in preparation.

 

 

I am unsure about this? Errors? IS a patient only cooking the herbs 5-10 minutes when they should cook for 35? OR an hour and ½?? We all would probably agree actual amount of water does not really matter, it’s a matter of drinking the tea over a given time... IT is not that hard, and really don't see how one could make such a gross error that the herbs would be that much different? Extracting herbs I feel is much more changing (in original preparation methods intended) than possibly minor cooking errors, which is still the intended decoction. I find people do not have problem with the process if it is explained clearly and EASILY- Making it not to complex.

 

Experiment:

 

Take gui zhi tang, make a soup (decoction) see how it feels, get under the covers, see how it feels, even eat the congee if you like. Do the same with a liquid extract, then a granule (different day of course). I have done these types of experiments, that is why I vote RAW. See what you all think.

 

 

-

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

, Jason blalack wrote:

 

And the effect on the body, at least for me, does not compare. There

is no way I can say the taste compares. See experiment below.

 

do you use dose equivalents? what brand are you using?

>

> SMELL: I am unsure why the base destroys the smell, I am unsure of the

chemistry. But just today I sampled multiple hit medicines, in various bases

including beeswax etc...they all had very strong fragrances.

 

many of which are made with concentrated essential oils. In addition,

smell escaping from herbs is the not same as active constits contained.

Perhaps something about the process prevents the smell from escpaing,

thus prolonging shelf life.

 

>

> **this is what I would like to hear an explanation of. What is meant by

much 'much' more reliability in potency? There is no way I can agree that

granules are more potent than raw herbs until there is some substantial studies

with some proof.

 

Actually, there are studies that show the level of actives in granules

and studies that show how unreliable the levels of actives are in home

decocted brews. this has less to do with what is in the raw herbs and

more to do with process of cooking.

 

Someone with 14 years or 50 years experience really means little to

me. Length of practice and experience seems moot, one can find anyone

(i.e. 20 years+ experience) that says anything...

 

can't argue with that, but my experience and those of many of my

colleagues is based upon changes in lab values and ultrasounds, not

subjective assessment. Also, the japanese do modern quality peer

reviewed research on granules both in vivo and vitro and clinically,

while the chinese research on raw is highly suspect in quality and

verity

 

>

> 1) If one is gearing the extraction process for this marker then one

runs the risk of not extracting equally all the components, and moving more and

more towards pharmaceutical based thinking.

 

 

a common misunderstanding of testing for marker constits. the herbs

are water extracted and levels of actives are not manipulated

chemically, so the presence of certain markers merely means that a

minimum of all the constits have been extracted. If one is present,

then so are the others that come out with water and in proportion. But

if there is no ephedrine in ma huang, there is probably little else as

well, for example. this has been demonstrated in europe with

standardized extracts.

 

>

> 2) This guaranteed potency and therefore a much different processing

that originally intended, for a given formula, would make sense that it is

changing the overall properties of the formula. I can not imagine that herb's

constituents are extracted in the same ratio as making a decoction,

 

 

why not? the herbs are decocted.

 

So there testing for the active (main) constituent, to me does not

guarantee anything. It just guarantees something that we might not

expect.

 

actually, I believe the testing for actives was determined by first

establishing what appeared in traditional decoction and then using that

as a gauge to " standardize " granules

>

I have never received raw herbs through MAYWAY that have not be loaded

with QI.

 

whatever that means. talk about speculative and subjective.

 

>

> So... If extracts are much more potent, IS this good? How is this known,

besides one's experience, because I hear plenty of Chinese doctors that say the

opposite?

 

and most have little experience with extracts. those I know who have

worked with both extensively are pretty sold on powders.

 

Do you believe that the formulas act exactly the same as a decoction,

therefore just prescribing less to accommodate the extra potency?

 

pretty much

 

If they are different, then is it a problem that all our history, and

99% modern research is done with decoctions.

 

the powders are made form decoctions and most of the research on

decoctions is probably bogus

>

 

>

Extracting herbs I feel is much more changing (in original preparation

methods intended) than possibly minor cooking errors, which is still

the intended decoction. I find people do not have problem with the

process if it is explained clearly and EASILY- Making it not to

complex.

 

perhaps you will find differently after 10 years.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,,

 

>If they are different, then is it a problem that all

our history, and 99% modern research is done with

decoctions.

 

Did they really follow the TCM theory or TCM concoct

procedure before decoctions?If the answer is " yes " ,

Did researcher provide the procedures he/she

concocted?if it is " no " ,How many % of 99% is correct

?Wrong begining develop wroung result.

 

>the powders are made form decoctions and most of the

research on decoctions is probably bogus>

 

Why come out this conclusion?You believe the

efectiveness of powder from decoction but claim the

decoction researches are bogus?

 

 

In Taiwan,We have many GMP(some technics are from

Japan decades ago.,some are traditional TCM techs.)

factory of powder.Shu-Tan-Do,Sen-chun,minton.....

 

We have at least two type products:

 

A.concoct then add starch dry(like milk powder).

We assumed the resoures of herbs all qualify becasue

the datas they provide are correct because they are

GMP standard.We don't have to request the scientific

finding.And our product is excellent because I used

it for two year.

 

In the mean time,I visited Peigin and bought same

formyla Lio-we-di-houng-won and Gia-wei-shao-yao-san

from Tong-ren-tone,Peigin.Their effect were much much

weaker than our products(Taiwan).I think the raw

materials are the key issue.

 

Most excellent quality herbs in mainland are sold over

sea for eran more and more money during that period.

 

The commond problem that A type factory still can't

claim their powder is 100% like concoct formula

because

 

1.they have to add starch for turn into powder,

2.they can't follow all the procedures tradition

concoction method and decoctology.

3.the procedure the dry might cause some ingrident

running away from air,for example, peppermint...

As well as Mainland and Japan,Japan have many kanpo

products.

 

I have been visit ?(123)biggest factory in mainland

once.Also ,I saw many produts in Tokyo and Osaka.

 

And according my two years experience of using these

product,their effects were slowly.If patients problem

is not very heavy,(sickness level 10-40%),it might

bring patient back to the normal stage.

 

But,If patient's condition is tough,the effectiveness

of powder will turn useless or need longer peirod.And

,when the powder used reaching some level

of disease develop ,the patient's situation will get

no progress by useing powder because powder Yao-qi

can't push the illness Qi..

 

B Type:

use raw herbs and tradition sikll to make product.

sen-chun has a good product:Lio-wei-di-houng-won.

I also take this product for two year. " won " meaning

slowly,and completely, it goes very slowly and will

get will completely.Therefore ,long term diseases need

" won " to take care of.

 

It smash(milled) raw herbs(sun dry is better than

machine dry)add cooked honey and turn it into " won "

by machin.

 

I have to say,sometimes,this product can't compared

with hand made Lio-wei-di-houng-won by some

experienced

herbs stores.(I bought others before,cirous girl,Ha!)

 

The experienced herbs stores's boss known how to chose

excellent quality herbs becasue The buyer ordered it

and willing to pay higher price for hand made

Lio-wei-di-houng-won.

 

For common use, B type product is much excellent

than powder.

 

If doctor in US can get good quality herbs and patient

will to do concoct,I don't think there is any thing

wroung and the experimental concoctions are not

bogus.We use them and drink them since we are

childhood.

 

If patient don't have time to do so,for common use,

powder , " won " product , " jao " product is another

good choice.

 

Ok,I know the good and bad of those stuffs,do you

believe that I know how to invent new methods?

Ha!

 

Jean

 

 

 

 

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