RE: granules

[Guest guest]

Jason:

I don't think anyone is debating that granulars may be more effective do

to compliance issues... But, a few comments...

 

> Mark Reese [tcm2]

>

> 1. When you cook the tea and smell the herbs cooking this is not

> necessarily a good thing since in many cases that smell is the

medicinal

> being cooked off. The granules are decocted in closed vats and the

> essential oils are purportedly returned to the finished product prior

to

> spray drying.

 

 

 

This needs to be researched, because this sort of cooking may actually

be tricky for two reasons:

1) The original dosage and preparation methods are based on this 'cooked

off' method. So dosage is a concern and possible function. This has

been the tradition, and they have therefore planned for this cook-off

method. But I am open to improvement...

2) But what I have wondered about is potential toxic components of

herbs. I.e. Fuzi- When one cooks it for an additional 30-60 minutes,

with the cook off method, something is being lost. With a sealed in

method (even a crock-pot) is there a potential of components that are

not originally intended to be ingested retained?

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

>

> Mark Reese [tcm2]

>

> 3. Cooking. Several examinations of patients' herb cooking have been

done

> over the last 20 years of TCM journaling that I have access to. I'm

not

> going to dig into my piles again, but I know that Subhuti Dharmananda

at

> the

> Institute of Traditional Medicine did one of them and I'm sure he'd be

> happy

> to furnish anyone interested with these results. I do remember that

in an

> attempt to determine how well patients complied with instructions

many

> ITM

> patients were given a decoction containing Ma Huang as one of the

> ingredients, as well as precise instructions on how to cook them (i.e

> amount

> of water, time of cooking, size of pot, etc). They were asked to

bring

> back

> a sample of the product which was then assayed for ephedrine, one

> consituent

> of Ma Huang. My brain is foggy, but I believe that the variation in

> ephedrine content among the different patients was in the 60% range

> indicating a wide variation in cooking methods.They can't make a

mistake

> in

> anything other than dosage with granules, and a teaspoon is fairly

easy to

> maneuver for all but the most dense.

>

 

Well.. This is important stuff, and am happy you mentioned this. One

thing comes to mind. This was alluded to earlier. I have to be very

curious about the testing process of these returned decoctions. This is

a very hard procedure to gauge because of the following: the amount of

water used in the beginning of the cooking process, amount of heat,

varying times, will obviously influence the amount of water in the end

product. These would be the errors. The concentration of the herbs can

very considerably because of different end-water amounts. But, if the

patient is instructed to drink whatever amount of liquid is produced

over a given amount of time then the same amounts (relatively) of herb

will be consumed. One could see how testing the concentration levels of

a given herbs can very considerably different, but I do not think this

is actually a problem... I am unsure if the difference in concentration

is from water concentration or if i.e. cooking something with a little

more heat, burning off more liquid, is extracting more, or just

seemingly because of less water and higher herb concentrate... comments?

 

-

[Guest guest]

Certainly good points which have been raised before (again, see ITM), and

should be investigated in a sytematic way.

 

 

-

" "

 

Friday, November 09, 2001 6:37 PM

RE: granules

 

 

> Jason:

> I don't think anyone is debating that granulars may be more effective do

> to compliance issues... But, a few comments...

>

> > Mark Reese [tcm2]

> >

> > 1. When you cook the tea and smell the herbs cooking this is not

> > necessarily a good thing since in many cases that smell is the

> medicinal

> > being cooked off. The granules are decocted in closed vats and the

> > essential oils are purportedly returned to the finished product prior

> to

> > spray drying.

>

>

>

> This needs to be researched, because this sort of cooking may actually

> be tricky for two reasons:

> 1) The original dosage and preparation methods are based on this 'cooked

> off' method. So dosage is a concern and possible function. This has

> been the tradition, and they have therefore planned for this cook-off

> method. But I am open to improvement...

> 2) But what I have wondered about is potential toxic components of

> herbs. I.e. Fuzi- When one cooks it for an additional 30-60 minutes,

> with the cook off method, something is being lost. With a sealed in

> method (even a crock-pot) is there a potential of components that are

> not originally intended to be ingested retained?

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " " <@o...> wrote:

 

I am unsure if the difference in concentration

> is from water concentration or if i.e. cooking something with a little

> more heat, burning off more liquid, is extracting more, or just

> seemingly because of less water and higher herb concentrate... comments?

>

> -

 

the entire cooked decoction was returned, not just 8 oz. from each

person. The total liquid amount varied AND so did the total amount of

ephedrine, not merely the concentration. subhuti has a Phd in biochem

and pharmacology. he would not make this mistake.

 

[Guest guest]

>

>

> Friday, November 09, 2001 6:37 PM

>

> Re: granules

>

> , " " <@o...> wrote:

>

> I am unsure if the difference in concentration

> > is from water concentration or if i.e. cooking something with a

little

> > more heat, burning off more liquid, is extracting more, or just

> > seemingly because of less water and higher herb concentrate...

comments?

> >

> > -

>

> the entire cooked decoction was returned, not just 8 oz. from each

> person. The total liquid amount varied AND so did the total amount of

> ephedrine, not merely the concentration. subhuti has a Phd in biochem

> and pharmacology. he would not make this mistake.

>

 

>

>

 

 

Thanx for the clarity, this is good to know...

 

-Jason

[Guest guest]

Hi,Dr.Jason,

 

China had a serial research about the decoct method.

In Taiwan,the old way to decoct,doctors always told

us:add 3 rice bowl(we are smaller than china's rice

bowl)of water cooked into 80% of 1 rice bowl.That is

nomal among in Taiwan in old fasion way.

 

It means turn 1500cc into 400cc.I guess.

 

Jean

 

=====

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi,Mark,

 

It's good to see you again!

 

>1. When you cook the tea and smell the herbs cooking

this is not necessarily a good thing since in many

cases that smell is the medicinal being cooked off.

 

There are not mcuh herb stores and clinics provide

herbal cooking in Taiwan.Doctors used lots of morden

types TCM herb formula to treat sickness.

 

Sometimes(most of times if patient is very experienced

by using TCM treatment),patient and family will ask

doctor to provide herb formula prescription in raw

herbs,after that,they will go to the herb stores they

familiared to purchase daily herb formula for longturn

treatment.

 

They cooked it at home.Some doctors provide decoct

services.

 

>The granules are decocted in closed vats and the

essential oils are purportedly returned to the

finished product prior to spray drying.

 

I saw it in mailand ,they use close vats (maybe under

high pressured) to decoct herb juice.

According to TCM theory,do you know what questions

I will rise?

a.like Dr,Jason mentioned.Fu-Zi.

b.the herb quality they chose and the concoct method

they used.I asumme that mailand all followed the

ancient way(you can't not known/controll the

quality).But,I am not sure the concoct method in US.

 

c.the way they packed.Do they wait until the soup cold

or packed it directelly after cooked?

The plastic bag or alum bag may release toxic of the

 

meterial if factory packed immediatelly after

cooked.

d.some herb formula need to dring while it is hot,like

kwei-Zi tang ,after dring ,get a little be sweat,the

xie will get out the body.How do we get that mechanism

if dring the packed herb juice?Twice cooked herb juice

make different result.(use the method put the pack in

cold water in a big pot warming the juice is another

way prevent chemical change twice cooked,but the pack

meterial have to untoxicate in boiling water.)

 

 

2. I find granules a lot more reliable than

decoctions (and have used both).....

 

I think the way request factory to product good

packed decoct juice by TCM methods is much easier

to request patient decoct by them self in western.

 

I am just provide the advices that what we use in

Asia.Many patients in Taiwan also don't want to decoct

by them self because they even don't cook for daily

food since lon time ago.

 

Patients who got benefit from the decoct by them self

will continute to do so if they treasuered their

health very much.

 

c.>They have nice houses and almost universally

bitched about how they couldn't get rid of the herbs

smell for hours after cooking the decoction.

Silly, I know.

 

How about cooked in back yard?ha! just joke.

 

>But this must be a pragmatic consideration since the

best medicine in the world won't work if the patient

won't take it.

 

Yes!! Therefore,TCM doctors wouldn't provide raw herbs

formula only in Taiwan.They smash the sun dry(very

dry) herbs steps by steps, in the final, add cooked

honey to make it become " won " for the long turn

illness patient to use.There are some herb stores made

" won " by themself in excellent quality in Taiwan,

we call it " hand made " herb medicine.This is also

another excellent old fassion TCM.

 

>Patients can take the granules to work, on vacation,

late at night when they're too tired to do anything

but brush their teeth, while suffering from

an exacerbation of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (try to

get a CFS patient at the peak of her fatigue to decoct

herbs!), or in any other pinch.

 

Sure,after you know how to make won by your self,

you(docotr)can try to turn the herbal formula into

" won " ,it will be for your patient to use easily.

TCM style " won " let people take whole herbs.

 

>3. Ma Huang.

according to TCM herbology,ma huang have to cooked

before other herbs.

 

>My brain is foggy,

I think this is not necessary.

In morden time,we can invent the most fit techs

to deal with these pwoblems by both TCM theory and WM

apporaches.

 

 

 

Jean

 

 

 

 

 

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< ¨C¤Ñ³£ ©_¼¯ > www..tw

[Guest guest]

The entire discussion of granules vs. raw has been an eye opener and food for

thought.

 

I wonder whether this applies to topical applications or is the potency of

granules (5-1 ratio) too high and cause more irritation? For example, how would

you use granules of Gan Cao for carbuncles, boils or other sores from toxicity.

What type of emulsifier would you use that

would not change the properties of the principal herb?

 

Also, in making medicinal wines, such as found in Bob's " Shaoling Secret

Formulas for the Treatment of External Injury " , since granules are ready to use

could just adding alcohol do the trick?

 

Thanks,

 

Fernando

[Guest guest]

mark,

what would you recommend topically for a shingles presentation on the face?

post neuralgic presentation in an 80 year old female, lots of residual pain,

stinging, numbness who is constitutionally kd/lv yin deficient?

appreciate any input topically.

susan schiff

[Guest guest]

Fernando,

 

I have used granules to make topicals when in a pinch and they've worked

brilliantly. Just add the formula to water, let sit so that the active

constituents go into solution and apply to the diaper rash/shingles/non

healing sore/etc.

 

However, I do buy dried herbs for any sort of hit medicine/liniment formula

that's going to sit for a few months. Why? Partly because, as Jason says,

we know that different constituents are going to be extracted via different

solvents and that these liniments were developed with specific effects in

mind. This is purely theoretical and I can offer no evidence that it makes

a difference either way.

 

The other reason is that those bottles look darn cool on my shelves and the

centipedes staring out of the jar at me remind me that I'm a modern day

witch doctor!

 

> I wonder whether this applies to topical applications or is the potency of

granules (5-1 ratio) too high and cause more irritation?

 

No, I would just use 80% more solvent.

 

Mark Reese

[Guest guest]

Mark Reese wrote:

 

> Fernando,

>

> I have used granules to make topicals when in a pinch and they've worked

> brilliantly. Just add the formula to water, let sit so that the active

> constituents go into solution and apply to the diaper rash/shingles/non

> healing sore/etc....

 

Great info, Mark, Thanks!

 

Fernando

[Guest guest]

Has anyone tried granules with other solvents than water- i.e. turpentine

for bone level topical applications, egg white for muscle level, oils,

etc?

 

Karen Vaughan

CreationsGarden

***************************************

Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment.

" Man is always worse than most people suspect, but also generally better

than most people dream. " --Reinhold Niebuhr

 

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[Guest guest]

<what would you recommend topically for a shingles presentation on the

face? >

 

Not TCM, but I've had very good luck with heavy infusions of melissa

(lemon balm) twice daily and to a lesser degree, with lemon balm

tincture. It's worth experimenting with as a topical, especially fresh

leaves, blended into glop.

 

When you check her pattern presentations look for signs which might

signal cancer. There is often a correlation between persistent shingles

in the elderly and cancer.

 

(Sorry about the WM proviso Jeansu)

 

Karen Vaughan

CreationsGarden

***************************************

Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment.

" Man is always worse than most people suspect, but also generally better

than most people dream. " --Reinhold Niebuhr

 

______________

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[Guest guest]

Hi,Keran,

 

(Sorry about the WM proviso Jeansu)<BR>

Could you tell me what does this means?

sometimes,My english is not taht good.

Thank you very much.

 

I have to say againg,

I am only provide the opinions what we use in here and

mainland China according my observation.Every country

all got it law.I am not deny your law.I just provide

the view I saw.

 

Do you know (as well as Hillary) that the last empire

Queen of Qing1 dynasty Mother Queen Ci2-Si had been

use lot of royal court secret recipes in herbal

formula to apply her face to keep the facial skin

young? We have lots of books in books stores in

Chinese here in Taiwan and Mainland.

 

For facial use, we use chicken egg white with green

beans milled powder to reduce the heat of the face,

for example, pimple, acne. You also can add

other herbs milled powder, such as bai2-zhi3 and

others to make your facial skin young and white¡K.

(small green bean, I had been bought it in

Minneapolis,

we cook and eat it in summer very often)

 

Yellow bean(raw material of tofu) milled powder plus

duck egg white can cure unknown name sore, boil(Why

don¡¦t western scientific researcher use some

animals do the experiment? or each strange thing I

mentioned before.Ha!)

 

For the bruise, contusion, we use duck egg white to

mixed herbs powder for special purpose. The most

excellent oil in Chinese is sesame oil. We use it

for cook(sesame oil plus ginger plus chicken is very

delicious and good for post delivery mother), for

massage ,for Gua1-Sa, for special wound/ bruise,

contusion, mixed with herbs milled ,crushed powder,

then, apply on the injury area.

 

Sometimes, people even don¡¦t have to amputation their

legs if the use of some Herbs apply drug is correct by

the TCM doctor.

 

All of this above I mentioned all have to follow the

correct rule of herbology Or TCM theory. Please do not

use it by guessing or trying. We have lots of books

Mentioned these approached, but, when you use it, it

had batter teach by some mentor or you are already

known TCM herbology very much.

 

Why sesame oil so popular in Chinese? Because it is

useful and the way we extract sesame oil is steam

first ,then, squeezed, a little be like olive oil, by

cold compress. And, It is really excellent for use.

 

About the rice wine, I will provide one next time.

 

Jean

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi,Fernando,

 

We have rules for herbal formula wine.

Not every thing add acohol all can chage into herb

wine.

 

There are lots of wine,but Chinese prefer rice because

rice goes into spleen to help Qi circulation.

 

I will provide one nest time.

 

Jean

 

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< ¨C¤Ñ³£ ©_¼¯ > www..tw

[Guest guest]

jeansu,

anything you can find out about topical application for shingles patient

would be greatly appreciated.

 

Do you, or anyone in the group have any advise for peripheral neuropathy

plasters, with or without moxa? Patient is 64, male, beautiful legs!, no

varicosities or edema, nice muscle tone, overall sp/kd def. and dampness as a

general syndrome differentation, as well as heat above, cold below. Feet and

legs get extremely cold and stiff especially at night in bed. Have tried many

kd and sp supplementing herbs, acu, massage(most relief from deep massage).

Patient feels has had progressive neuropathy for about 10 years. The

sensation that he describes is that he feels(other than cold, icy) like

there's a constriction around his toes and the dorsum of his feet. Almost

like they are bandaged.

Occasional LBP, impotence, hearing loss, fatigue as day progresses, and

frequent urination at night disturbing sleep. Great attitude, avid golfer,

social, humorous, willing to do anything to arrest the neuropathy.

Any guidance, suggestions or comments would be greatly appreciated.

 

Susan Schiff

[Guest guest]

Hi,susan,

 

One of my colleague (he is expert of Taiwan herbs,

have been told me there is one raw herb in Taiwan can

treat the disease you mentiond very well.

 

There are also herbal formula in maindland.One of my

seinor Ph.D. classmate told me he found one TCM method

cure shingles .But,he is back to Argintina now.He is

Taiwanese.

Maybe I can check books for you.

 

 

Jean

 

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< ¨C¤Ñ³£ ©_¼¯ > www..tw

[Guest guest]

I often provide long term herbs in both raw and dry or tinctured forms.

This prevents much of the non compliance when patients are too tired or

busy to cook herbs, but gives them the greater benefit of raw herbs when

they can do it correctly.

 

Karen Vaughan

CreationsGarden

***************************************

Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment.

" Man is always worse than most people suspect, but also generally better

than most people dream. " --Reinhold Niebuhr

 

______________

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Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!

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[Guest guest]

Susan,

 

I can't claim much originality in what I use. The topical formula that I

have patients make is from Blue Poppy's A Handbook of Traditional Chinese

Dermatology and is as follows:

 

Zhen Zhu Mu

Mu Li

Long Chi

Dai Zhe Shi

Ci Shi

 

All decocted together at 30g each. Use internal herbs to address the root

and branch as you see fit. Topically this seems to work well in combination

with acu/internal herbs.

 

See what you think.

 

Mark Reese

 

 

 

> mark,

> what would you recommend topically for a shingles presentation on the

face?

> post neuralgic presentation in an 80 year old female, lots of residual

pain,

> stinging, numbness who is constitutionally kd/lv yin deficient?

> appreciate any input topically.

> susan schiff

>

 

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,Susan,

 

I have make sure that we are in same correct diagnosis

the disease you mentioned yesterday.Do we talk about

the same disease:varicella zoster virus infected

disease?

 

if it is.I would like to tell you a good news.I found

an article from TCM doctor from internet.

 

It is in chinese(Big 5 code).If you and your computer

can read chinese,I will forward mail to you directly.

if it is not,I will translate in english for you .

 

Jean

 

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