Guest guest Posted November 13, 2001 Report Share Posted November 13, 2001 > It's used a lot among my collegues, who are all admittedly in the same circle as Lonnie's.. Look at the revised section of the Web That has No Weaver in the parts about Blood Pathologies. It's very good in equating the Blood with Spirit .. I find this approach very useful in diagnosing " unhappy " people in the clinic. I've taken YuNan Bai Yao, one capsule a day, and find that at some point in that or the next day I'll have some moment of crystal clear clarity. It's nice. Still working on my betrayal issues though. ;-) > > Frances Gander <fgander > Re: Re: yunnan Pai yao > > Does anyone know about the use of yunnan pai yao for someone with blood > stasis concurrent with emotional injury due to betrayal or abuse? > Lonnie Jarrett suggests this prescription in his writings on betrayal of > intimacy. I find yunnan pai yao somewhat harsh and cold, maybe not for > everyone. But what about its use on this level? Useful or not? > Thanks. I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts and experience with this. > > Frances Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 13, 2001 Report Share Posted November 13, 2001 I'm sorry, I certainly believe in the importance of an shen/calming spirit treatment, of working with the qi qing/seven affects, but where on earth did anyone come up with the idea that yunnan baiyao treats issues of intimacy and betrayal? On Tuesday, November 13, 2001, at 05:35 PM, wrote: > > > > It's used a lot among my collegues, who are all admittedly in the same > circle as Lonnie's.. Look at the revised section of the Web That has No > Weaver in the parts about Blood Pathologies. It's very good in equating > the Blood with Spirit . I find this approach very useful in > diagnosing " unhappy " people in the clinic. > > I've taken YuNan Bai Yao, one capsule a day, and find that at some > point in that or the next day I'll have some moment of crystal clear > clarity. It's nice. > Still working on my betrayal issues though. ;-) > > > > > Frances Gander <fgander > > Re: Re: yunnan Pai yao > > > > Does anyone know about the use of yunnan pai yao for someone with > blood > > stasis concurrent with emotional injury due to betrayal or abuse? > > Lonnie Jarrett suggests this prescription in his writings on betrayal > of > > intimacy. I find yunnan pai yao somewhat harsh and cold, maybe not > for > > everyone. But what about its use on this level? Useful or not? > > Thanks. I'd appreciate hearing your thoughts and experience with > this. > > > > Frances > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2001 Report Share Posted November 14, 2001 In a message dated 11/13/01 9:24:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, zrosenbe writes: I'm sorry, I certainly believe in the importance of an shen/calming spirit treatment, of working with the qi qing/seven affects, but where on earth did anyone come up with the idea that yunnan baiyao treats issues of intimacy and betrayal? Z'ev, Steven and Francis.... Apparently Lonnie didn't cite his sources for this protocol......... This treatment is a direct transmission from John Shen and Leon Hammer to those who studied with them and their students. Dr Shen was a practitioner of extraordinary talent and insight the likes of which I have never seen. His use of Yu Nan Bai Yao went far beyond the pedestrian 'activate blood stop bleeding' when you run over your foot with a lawnmower type case. They both used the material for any history of shock or trauma including birth trauma. It is truly 'gold no can buy' when used in an expanded sense. Shen calming is frequently ineffective as a method of treatment for the seven affectations. Moving blood and opening orifices the way Yu Nan Pai Yao does can work better than Shen calming or nourishing. The Shen rest in the blood and find their throne in the Heart..... The experience of betrayal may shock the Heart which scatters the Qi which affects the heart and the circulatory system. The protocol usually required the use of Sheng Mai San or Xue Fu Zhu Yu Tang after a reasonable period of treatment with Yu Nan Bai Yao depending on the underlying pattern. The coldness has never been too much of an issue due to short treatment periods, or combinations with other medically such as wine. I have experienced many cases of Jue Yin constitution patients who Dr Shen would name 'nervous system weak' take Yu Nan Bai Yao and have tremendous amounts of past psycho-emotional material arise on doses of two capsules twice a day. This method should be used with caution in such situations. One patient of robust constitution decided to take a whole sheet of caps and reported similar events..... Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2001 Report Share Posted November 14, 2001 Will, Thanks for your clarification on the origins of the protocol. It's always nice to know the source of a transmission. And thanks to Frances for asking the question. Steven , WMorris116@A... wrote > In a message dated 11/13/01 9:24:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, > zrosenbe@s... writes: > > > > I'm sorry, I certainly believe in the importance of an shen/calming > > spirit treatment, of working with the qi qing/seven affects, but where > > on earth did anyone come up with the idea that yunnan baiyao treats > > issues of intimacy and betrayal? > > Z'ev, Steven and Francis.... > > Apparently Lonnie didn't cite his sources for this protocol......... > > This treatment is a direct transmission from John Shen and Leon Hammer to > those who studied with them and their students. Dr Shen was a practitioner of > extraordinary talent and insight the likes of which I have never seen. His > use of Yu Nan Bai Yao went far beyond the pedestrian 'activate blood stop > bleeding' when you run over your foot with a lawnmower type case. They both > used the material for any history of shock or trauma including birth trauma. > It is truly 'gold no can buy' when used in an expanded sense. > > Shen calming is frequently ineffective as a method of treatment for the seven > affectations. Moving blood and opening orifices the way Yu Nan Pai Yao does > can work better than Shen calming or nourishing. The Shen rest in the blood > and find their throne in the Heart..... The experience of betrayal may shock > the Heart which scatters the Qi which affects the heart and the circulatory > system. > > The protocol usually required the use of Sheng Mai San or Xue Fu Zhu Yu Tang > after a reasonable period of treatment with Yu Nan Bai Yao depending on the > underlying pattern. The coldness has never been too much of an issue due to > short treatment periods, or combinations with other medically such as wine. I > have experienced many cases of Jue Yin constitution patients who Dr Shen > would name 'nervous system weak' take Yu Nan Bai Yao and have tremendous > amounts of past psycho-emotional material arise on doses of two capsules > twice a day. This method should be used with caution in such situations. One > patient of robust constitution decided to take a whole sheet of caps and > reported similar events..... > > Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2001 Report Share Posted November 14, 2001 Thank you, Will, this answers my question. Very interesting indeed, coming from Dr. Shen who's work I've followed for years. I am examining his pulse work in Dr. Hammer's new book as we speak. I have used xue fu zhu yu tang quite a bit in essence-spirit disorders, with good results, so what you say makes sense to me. On Wednesday, November 14, 2001, at 07:55 AM, WMorris116 wrote: > In a message dated 11/13/01 9:24:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, > zrosenbe writes: > > > I'm sorry, I certainly believe in the importance of an shen/calming > spirit treatment, of working with the qi qing/seven affects, but where > on earth did anyone come up with the idea that yunnan baiyao treats > issues of intimacy and betrayal? > > > > Z'ev, Steven and Francis.... > > Apparently Lonnie didn't cite his sources for this protocol......... > > This treatment is a direct transmission from John Shen and Leon Hammer > to those who studied with them and their students. Dr Shen was a > practitioner of extraordinary talent and insight the likes of which I > have never seen. His use of Yu Nan Bai Yao went far beyond the > pedestrian 'activate blood stop bleeding' when you run over your foot > with a lawnmower type case. They both used the material for any history > of shock or trauma including birth trauma. It is truly 'gold no can > buy' when used in an expanded sense. > > Shen calming is frequently ineffective as a method of treatment for the > seven affectations. Moving blood and opening orifices the way Yu Nan > Pai Yao does can work better than Shen calming or nourishing. The Shen > rest in the blood and find their throne in the Heart..... The > experience of betrayal may shock the Heart which scatters the Qi which > affects the heart and the circulatory system. > > The protocol usually required the use of Sheng Mai San or Xue Fu Zhu > Yu Tang after a reasonable period of treatment with Yu Nan Bai Yao > depending on the underlying pattern. The coldness has never been too > much of an issue due to short treatment periods, or combinations with > other medically such as wine. I have experienced many cases of Jue Yin > constitution patients who Dr Shen would name 'nervous system weak' take > Yu Nan Bai Yao and have tremendous amounts of past psycho-emotional > material arise on doses of two capsules twice a day. This method > should be used with caution in such situations. One patient of robust > constitution decided to take a whole sheet of caps and reported similar > events..... > > Will > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2001 Report Share Posted November 14, 2001 This is an interesting thread. The use of blood-quickening meds in Chinese medical psychiatry has a long and well documented history, going back as far as Zhang Zhong-jing and the Jin Gui Yao Lue. While blood stasis is not typically listed as the main disease mechanism of most psychiatric disorders (at least not based on the research I did for James Lake's and my Chinese Medical Psychiatry), blood stasis does commonly evolve from and complicate all the more commonly thought of psychiatric disease mechanisms. In fact, blood stasis plays such a common part in chronic, enduring psychiatric disorders that, several years ago, I translated a diagnostic algorithm for the discrimination of blood stasis in integrated Chinese-Western medicine (zhong xi yi jie he) in which a history of psychiatric disorder was one of the possible elements that could add up to a diagnosis of blood stasis. Based on the importance of blood stasis as an element in psychiatric disturbances, Blue Poppy Herbs has recently released a formula originally created and researched in the PRC. In Chinese, it's name is Jie Yu Ding Mian Fang (Resolve Depression & Stabilize Sleep Formula). It is indicated for the treatment of severe, recalcitrant insomnia due to disquieted spirit in turn due to heart yin and blood vacuity with qi stagnation, possible depressive heat, and blood stasis. Although the research done on this formula has primarily focused on insomnia, given the right pattern discrimination, it could potentially be used for a wide variety of psychiatric disorders based on the TCM dictum, " Different diseases, same treatment. " Unlike Yunnan Bai Yao, all its ingredients are well known, standard ones that any student completing a materia medica class would've studied. As for patients dredging up long forgotten memories and emotions and having various types of " cathartic " experiences, I'd like to add two things from my own experience. First, before I began my study of Chinese medicine, I was a bodyworker during the time when transpersonal psychology, Reichian therapy, bioenergetics, Esalen massage, Rolfing, Lomi bodywork, and Hakomi body-centered psychotherapy were all very popular. During or after these kinds of bodywork sessions, patients would often remember long forgotten (or repressed) events and/or emotions. I've also often seen this sort of thing with acupuncture patients. However, in my experience, the tendency for this to happen was very much related to the expectations and desires of the practitioner and the patient as opposed to the bodywork techniques per se. Some practitioners seemed to elicit and encourage such events, while other practitioners using the same techniques never elicited such experiences in their patients. I know one very well known and regarded Rolfer who never elicits such experiences, and I know another Rolfer who almost always does. The first Rolfer is not particularly interested in psychology or psychotherapy. The second Rolfer is a Boulder Buddhist and Naropa psychology graduate who is very interested in such things. I mention this because, I believe, such events in patients have more to do with the practitioner/patient relationship than with the physical or herbal treatment. Therefore, I can understand how Dr. Shen, Dr. Hammer, Lonnie, or their students might elicit such responses seemingly due to th administration of Yunnan Bai Yao, while other practitioners may have prescribed the same meds to dozens of patients with nary one such event. Hence Z'ev's incredulity. To me, this underscores the importance of not immediately assuming post hoc means propter hoc. This is exactly why Western drug research is typically randomly assigned, double-blind, and placebo-controlled. Secondly, if one promotes such a remembrance or dredging up of repressed emotions, it is my experience that one needs to be trained how to handle such occurences in a professionally competent way. Without dual training in Chinese medicine and psychotherapy, I worry that more harm than good may come from this. I say this because, when I was into this kind of thing, I have definitely seen people made worse by inexpert psychotherapy. I know my coauthor, Dr. Lake, who was a psychotherapist before becoming a psychiatrist, was also concerned about acupuncturists trying to do psychotherapy without adequate training in that clinical profession. Bob Bob , taohongjing wrote: > Will, > > Thanks for your clarification on the origins of the protocol. It's > always nice to know the source of a transmission. And thanks to > Frances for asking the question. > > Steven > > > , WMorris116@A... wrote > > > In a message dated 11/13/01 9:24:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, > > zrosenbe@s... writes: > > > > > > > I'm sorry, I certainly believe in the importance of an > shen/calming > > > spirit treatment, of working with the qi qing/seven affects, but > where > > > on earth did anyone come up with the idea that yunnan baiyao > treats > > > issues of intimacy and betrayal? > > > > Z'ev, Steven and Francis.... > > > > Apparently Lonnie didn't cite his sources for this protocol......... > > > > This treatment is a direct transmission from John Shen and Leon > Hammer to > > those who studied with them and their students. Dr Shen was a > practitioner of > > extraordinary talent and insight the likes of which I have never > seen. His > > use of Yu Nan Bai Yao went far beyond the pedestrian 'activate > blood stop > > bleeding' when you run over your foot with a lawnmower type case. > They both > > used the material for any history of shock or trauma including > birth trauma. > > It is truly 'gold no can buy' when used in an expanded sense. > > > > Shen calming is frequently ineffective as a method of treatment for > the seven > > affectations. Moving blood and opening orifices the way Yu Nan Pai > Yao does > > can work better than Shen calming or nourishing. The Shen rest in > the blood > > and find their throne in the Heart..... The experience of betrayal > may shock > > the Heart which scatters the Qi which affects the heart and the > circulatory > > system. > > > > The protocol usually required the use of Sheng Mai San or Xue Fu > Zhu Yu Tang > > after a reasonable period of treatment with Yu Nan Bai Yao > depending on the > > underlying pattern. The coldness has never been too much of an > issue due to > > short treatment periods, or combinations with other medically such > as wine. I > > have experienced many cases of Jue Yin constitution patients who Dr > Shen > > would name 'nervous system weak' take Yu Nan Bai Yao and have > tremendous > > amounts of past psycho-emotional material arise on doses of two > capsules > > twice a day. This method should be used with caution in such > situations. One > > patient of robust constitution decided to take a whole sheet of > caps and > > reported similar events..... > > > > Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2001 Report Share Posted November 14, 2001 what's in the formula Alon - pemachophel2001 Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:30 PM Re: Digest Number 772 This is an interesting thread.The use of blood-quickening meds in Chinese medical psychiatry has a long and well documented history, going back as far as Zhang Zhong-jing and the Jin Gui Yao Lue. While blood stasis is not typically listed as the main disease mechanism of most psychiatric disorders (at least not based on the research I did for James Lake's and my Chinese Medical Psychiatry), blood stasis does commonly evolve from and complicate all the more commonly thought of psychiatric disease mechanisms. In fact, blood stasis plays such a common part in chronic, enduring psychiatric disorders that, several years ago, I translated a diagnostic algorithm for the discrimination of blood stasis in integrated Chinese-Western medicine (zhong xi yi jie he) in which a history of psychiatric disorder was one of the possible elements that could add up to a diagnosis of blood stasis.Based on the importance of blood stasis as an element in psychiatric disturbances, Blue Poppy Herbs has recently released a formula originally created and researched in the PRC. In Chinese, it's name is Jie Yu Ding Mian Fang (Resolve Depression & Stabilize Sleep Formula). It is indicated for the treatment of severe, recalcitrant insomnia due to disquieted spirit in turn due to heart yin and blood vacuity with qi stagnation, possible depressive heat, and blood stasis. Although the research done on this formula has primarily focused on insomnia, given the right pattern discrimination, it could potentially be used for a wide variety of psychiatric disorders based on the TCM dictum,"Different diseases, same treatment." Unlike Yunnan Bai Yao, all its ingredients are well known, standard ones that any student completing a materia medica class would've studied.As for patients dredging up long forgotten memories and emotions and having various types of "cathartic" experiences, I'd like to add two things from my own experience. First, before I began my study of Chinese medicine, I was a bodyworker during the time when transpersonal psychology, Reichian therapy, bioenergetics, Esalen massage, Rolfing, Lomi bodywork, and Hakomi body-centered psychotherapy were all very popular. During or after these kinds of bodywork sessions, patients would often remember long forgotten (or repressed) events and/or emotions. I've also often seen this sort of thing with acupuncture patients. However, in my experience, the tendency for this to happen was very much related to the expectations and desires of the practitioner and the patient as opposed to the bodywork techniques per se. Some practitioners seemed to elicit and encourage such events, while other practitioners using the same techniques never elicited such experiences in their patients. I know one very well known and regarded Rolfer who never elicits such experiences, and I know another Rolfer who almost always does. The first Rolfer is not particularly interested in psychology or psychotherapy. The second Rolfer is a Boulder Buddhist and Naropa psychology graduate who is very interested in such things. I mention this because, I believe, such events in patients have more to do with the practitioner/patient relationship than with the physical or herbal treatment. Therefore, I can understand how Dr. Shen, Dr. Hammer, Lonnie, or their students might elicit such responses seemingly due to th administration of Yunnan Bai Yao, while other practitioners may have prescribed the same meds to dozens of patients with nary one such event. Hence Z'ev's incredulity. To me, this underscores the importance of not immediately assuming post hoc means propter hoc. This is exactly why Western drug research is typically randomly assigned, double-blind, and placebo-controlled.Secondly, if one promotes such a remembrance or dredging up of repressed emotions, it is my experience that one needs to be trained how to handle such occurences in a professionally competent way. Without dual training in Chinese medicine and psychotherapy, I worry that more harm than good may come from this. I say this because, when I was into this kind of thing, I have definitely seen people made worse by inexpert psychotherapy. I know my coauthor, Dr. Lake, who was a psychotherapist before becoming a psychiatrist, was also concerned about acupuncturists trying to do psychotherapy without adequate training in that clinical profession.BobBob, taohongjing wrote:> Will,> > Thanks for your clarification on the origins of the protocol. It's > always nice to know the source of a transmission. And thanks to > Frances for asking the question. > > Steven> > > , WMorris116@A... wrote> > > In a message dated 11/13/01 9:24:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, > > zrosenbe@s... writes:> > > > > > > I'm sorry, I certainly believe in the importance of an > shen/calming > > > spirit treatment, of working with the qi qing/seven affects, but > where > > > on earth did anyone come up with the idea that yunnan baiyao > treats > > > issues of intimacy and betrayal?> > > > Z'ev, Steven and Francis....> > > > Apparently Lonnie didn't cite his sources for this protocol.........> > > > This treatment is a direct transmission from John Shen and Leon > Hammer to > > those who studied with them and their students. Dr Shen was a > practitioner of > > extraordinary talent and insight the likes of which I have never > seen. His > > use of Yu Nan Bai Yao went far beyond the pedestrian 'activate > blood stop > > bleeding' when you run over your foot with a lawnmower type case. > They both > > used the material for any history of shock or trauma including > birth trauma. > > It is truly 'gold no can buy' when used in an expanded sense.> > > > Shen calming is frequently ineffective as a method of treatment for > the seven > > affectations. Moving blood and opening orifices the way Yu Nan Pai > Yao does > > can work better than Shen calming or nourishing. The Shen rest in > the blood > > and find their throne in the Heart..... The experience of betrayal > may shock > > the Heart which scatters the Qi which affects the heart and the > circulatory > > system.> > > > The protocol usually required the use of Sheng Mai San or Xue Fu > Zhu Yu Tang > > after a reasonable period of treatment with Yu Nan Bai Yao > depending on the > > underlying pattern. The coldness has never been too much of an > issue due to > > short treatment periods, or combinations with other medically such > as wine. I > > have experienced many cases of Jue Yin constitution patients who Dr > Shen > > would name 'nervous system weak' take Yu Nan Bai Yao and have > tremendous > > amounts of past psycho-emotional material arise on doses of two > capsules > > twice a day. This method should be used with caution in such > situations. One > > patient of robust constitution decided to take a whole sheet of > caps and > > reported similar events.....> > > > WillChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2001 Report Share Posted November 14, 2001 In a message dated 11/14/01 12:32:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, pemachophel2001 writes: Secondly, if one promotes such a remembrance or dredging up of repressed emotions, it is my experience that one needs to be trained how to handle such occurences in a professionally competent way. Without dual training in Chinese medicine and psychotherapy, I worry that more harm than good may come from this. I say this because, when I was into this kind of thing, I have definitely seen people made worse by inexpert psychotherapy. I know my coauthor, Dr. Lake, who was a psychotherapist before becoming a psychiatrist, was also concerned about acupuncturists trying to do psychotherapy without adequate training in that clinical profession. 100% agreed.....I refer out. This conversation is for the purpose of recognizing what I consider to be real possibilities when using these therapies. Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2001 Report Share Posted November 14, 2001 In a message dated 11/14/01 6:18:47 PM Pacific Standard Time, rorykerr writes: Having to a small extent followed Dr Shen in his clinic, I have to say I rather doubt that he was trying to elicit this sort of response or had any expectation of such a response. Dr Shen recommended Yu Nan bai Yao for patients with 'circulation weakness' due to old injury, who perhaps years later get recurrent pain. I also studied for several years with Dr Hammer (as did Will Morris and Lonnie Jarrett), and while I can't speak for him, it was not my impression that this was part of his expectation either, notwithstanding that he is a psychiatrist. I always heard Dr Hammer describe this treatment as a means of resolving unresolved qi stagnation from past physical trauma. Dr Hammer in his eulogy for Dr Shen at the AAOM conference in Hawaii cited the Woody Allen movie (I have forgotten the name) with the Chinese herbalist as a characature of Dr Shen. My impression of Drs Shen and Hammer was a sensitive perception of the psychotropic uses herbs such that I have not experienced with any other writer or teacher. I'll stand by my statements....they work for me in clinic. They work with suggestion or without. Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2001 Report Share Posted November 14, 2001 In a message dated 11/14/01 9:23:12 PM Pacific Standard Time, WMorris116 writes: << Dr Hammer in his eulogy for Dr Shen at the AAOM conference in Hawaii cited the Woody Allen movie (I have forgotten the name) with the Chinese herbalist as a characature of Dr Shen. >> That was " Alice " starring Mia Farrow; acupuncture is also mentioned a couple times by Martin Landau's wife in " Crimes and Misdemeanors " , and ginseng is mentioned once in " Hubands and Wives " . Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2001 Report Share Posted November 14, 2001 Alon, I believe you can check out the ingredients, formula rationale, combinations, indications, etc. at www.bluepoppy.com under Blue Poppy Herbs. Or Blue Poppy customer service at 800-487-9296 can send/fax you a product information sheet. List, I'll be in S.F. this weekend teaching, so I won't be responding to this list till next Wednesday. Bob , " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > what's in the formula > Alon > - > pemachophel2001 > > Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:30 PM > Re: Digest Number 772 > > > This is an interesting thread. > > The use of blood-quickening meds in Chinese medical psychiatry has a > long and well documented history, going back as far as Zhang > Zhong-jing and the Jin Gui Yao Lue. While blood stasis is not > typically listed as the main disease mechanism of most psychiatric > disorders (at least not based on the research I did for James Lake's > and my Chinese Medical Psychiatry), blood stasis does commonly evolve > from and complicate all the more commonly thought of psychiatric > disease mechanisms. In fact, blood stasis plays such a common part in > chronic, enduring psychiatric disorders that, several years ago, I > translated a diagnostic algorithm for the discrimination of blood > stasis in integrated Chinese-Western medicine (zhong xi yi jie he) in > which a history of psychiatric disorder was one of the possible > elements that could add up to a diagnosis of blood stasis. > > Based on the importance of blood stasis as an element in psychiatric > disturbances, Blue Poppy Herbs has recently released a formula > originally created and researched in the PRC. In Chinese, it's name is > Jie Yu Ding Mian Fang (Resolve Depression & Stabilize Sleep Formula). > It is indicated for the treatment of severe, recalcitrant insomnia due > to disquieted spirit in turn due to heart yin and blood vacuity with > qi stagnation, possible depressive heat, and blood stasis. Although > the research done on this formula has primarily focused on insomnia, > given the right pattern discrimination, it could potentially be used > for a wide variety of psychiatric disorders based on the TCM > dictum, " Different diseases, same treatment. " Unlike Yunnan Bai Yao, > all its ingredients are well known, standard ones that any student > completing a materia medica class would've studied. > > As for patients dredging up long forgotten memories and emotions and > having various types of " cathartic " experiences, I'd like to add two > things from my own experience. First, before I began my study of > Chinese medicine, I was a bodyworker during the time when > transpersonal psychology, Reichian therapy, bioenergetics, Esalen > massage, Rolfing, Lomi bodywork, and Hakomi body-centered > psychotherapy were all very popular. During or after these kinds of > bodywork sessions, patients would often remember long forgotten (or > repressed) events and/or emotions. I've also often seen this sort of > thing with acupuncture patients. > > However, in my experience, the tendency for this to happen was very > much related to the expectations and desires of the practitioner and > the patient as opposed to the bodywork techniques per se. Some > practitioners seemed to elicit and encourage such events, while other > practitioners using the same techniques never elicited such > experiences in their patients. I know one very well known and regarded > Rolfer who never elicits such experiences, and I know another Rolfer > who almost always does. The first Rolfer is not particularly > interested in psychology or psychotherapy. The second Rolfer is a > Boulder Buddhist and Naropa psychology graduate who is very interested > in such things. > > I mention this because, I believe, such events in patients have more > to do with the practitioner/patient relationship than with the > physical or herbal treatment. Therefore, I can understand how Dr. > Shen, Dr. Hammer, Lonnie, or their students might elicit such > responses seemingly due to th administration of Yunnan Bai Yao, while > other practitioners may have prescribed the same meds to dozens of > patients with nary one such event. Hence Z'ev's incredulity. To me, > this underscores the importance of not immediately assuming post hoc > means propter hoc. This is exactly why Western drug research is > typically randomly assigned, double-blind, and placebo-controlled. > > Secondly, if one promotes such a remembrance or dredging up of > repressed emotions, it is my experience that one needs to be trained > how to handle such occurences in a professionally competent way. > Without dual training in Chinese medicine and psychotherapy, I worry > that more harm than good may come from this. I say this because, when > I was into this kind of thing, I have definitely seen people made > worse by inexpert psychotherapy. I know my coauthor, Dr. Lake, who was > a psychotherapist before becoming a psychiatrist, was also concerned > about acupuncturists trying to do psychotherapy without adequate > training in that clinical profession. > > Bob > > Bob > > , taohongjing wrote: > > Will, > > > > Thanks for your clarification on the origins of the protocol. It's > > always nice to know the source of a transmission. And thanks to > > Frances for asking the question. > > > > Steven > > > > > > , WMorris116@A... wrote > > > > > In a message dated 11/13/01 9:24:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, > > > zrosenbe@s... writes: > > > > > > > > > > I'm sorry, I certainly believe in the importance of an > > shen/calming > > > > spirit treatment, of working with the qi qing/seven affects, but > > where > > > > on earth did anyone come up with the idea that yunnan baiyao > > treats > > > > issues of intimacy and betrayal? > > > > > > Z'ev, Steven and Francis.... > > > > > > Apparently Lonnie didn't cite his sources for this > protocol......... > > > > > > This treatment is a direct transmission from John Shen and Leon > > Hammer to > > > those who studied with them and their students. Dr Shen was a > > practitioner of > > > extraordinary talent and insight the likes of which I have never > > seen. His > > > use of Yu Nan Bai Yao went far beyond the pedestrian 'activate > > blood stop > > > bleeding' when you run over your foot with a lawnmower type case. > > They both > > > used the material for any history of shock or trauma including > > birth trauma. > > > It is truly 'gold no can buy' when used in an expanded sense. > > > > > > Shen calming is frequently ineffective as a method of treatment > for > > the seven > > > affectations. Moving blood and opening orifices the way Yu Nan Pai > > Yao does > > > can work better than Shen calming or nourishing. The Shen rest in > > the blood > > > and find their throne in the Heart..... The experience of betrayal > > may shock > > > the Heart which scatters the Qi which affects the heart and the > > circulatory > > > system. > > > > > > The protocol usually required the use of Sheng Mai San or Xue Fu > > Zhu Yu Tang > > > after a reasonable period of treatment with Yu Nan Bai Yao > > depending on the > > > underlying pattern. The coldness has never been too much of an > > issue due to > > > short treatment periods, or combinations with other medically such > > as wine. I > > > have experienced many cases of Jue Yin constitution patients who > Dr > > Shen > > > would name 'nervous system weak' take Yu Nan Bai Yao and have > > tremendous > > > amounts of past psycho-emotional material arise on doses of two > > capsules > > > twice a day. This method should be used with caution in such > > situations. One > > > patient of robust constitution decided to take a whole sheet of > > caps and > > > reported similar events..... > > > > > > Will > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2001 Report Share Posted November 14, 2001 At 8:30 PM +0000 11/14/01, pemachophel2001 wrote: >I mention this because, I believe, such events in patients have more >to do with the practitioner/patient relationship than with the >physical or herbal treatment. Therefore, I can understand how Dr. >Shen, Dr. Hammer, Lonnie, or their students might elicit such >responses seemingly due to th administration of Yunnan Bai Yao, while >other practitioners may have prescribed the same meds to dozens of >patients with nary one such event. -- Having to a small extent followed Dr Shen in his clinic, I have to say I rather doubt that he was trying to elicit this sort of response or had any expectation of such a response. Dr Shen recommended Yu Nan bai Yao for patients with 'circulation weakness' due to old injury, who perhaps years later get recurrent pain. I also studied for several years with Dr Hammer (as did Will Morris and Lonnie Jarrett), and while I can't speak for him, it was not my impression that this was part of his expectation either, notwithstanding that he is a psychiatrist. I always heard Dr Hammer describe this treatment as a means of resolving unresolved qi stagnation from past physical trauma. For an example, of this see page 236-239 of Hammer's book (Cotton Pulse), and Case 1 in the appendix. There is a very nice In Memoriam for Dr Shen in the latest issue of the Journal of , with contributions from Alan Papier, Giovanni Maciocia, Peter Deadman, and Leon Hammer. Rory Kerr -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2001 Report Share Posted November 14, 2001 Hi,Every one, I see a mess here.I have to provide waring. First,I have to say,Yunna pai yao is an excellent herb formula,it is no doubt at all. But,it shouldn't treat as a 'God medicine " ,cured " Bai- Bin " (100s diseases).This might cause dangerous of patient. We have to look back what it is the TCM theory of psychotrama and mental illness and diseases.Then, if it fit the diagnosis,you can use it to your patient ,if it is not.never try it. About mental disease which fit Yunna pai yao have to base on the diseases is due to the stasis of blood vesso of brain ,or blood defficency to heart and liver,heart qi not sufficency,and the blood can't circulate upper to brain. TCM theory about menatl diseases at least connect with three parts:heart, liver ,blood. heart means blood circulation function.Heart Qi also effect the brain.if heart Qi and blood quality and circulation is not good enough,the patient will feel sleepy. Liver has connection with nerves.Nevers got connection with brain.Therefore, if liver yang goes up,the patient might insomnia or irritatble,angry.... What kind of psycho or mentals disease is caused by blood starsis? 1.Head injury and the blood stasis (bruise) block in the brain vessels. 2.stroke,and the stasis block the vessels. 3.stasis block heart vessel ,therefore, blood can't circulate very well to the brain,and patient feel weak and sleepy. 4.patient's blood quality or blood quantity is extreme no good or not enough, and it become stasis now. 5.liver Qi depress in liver,therfore liver can't provide support to nerves,liver blood stasis. Therefore,Dr,Shen's approaches: The protocol usually required the use of Sheng Mai San (Jan:Ren-sen, Mai-man-tong,Wu-wei-zi,enhence Qi and yin of the blood to help Yunna pai yao milt stasis,create new blood, push and eliminate stasis) Xue Fu Zhu Yu Tang(Jean:eliminate blood stasis and help the function of Yunna pai yao )after a reasonable period of treatment with Yu Nan Bai Yao depending on the underlying pattern. :The coldness(Jean:the function of Yunna pai yao is melt the stasis and increase blood circulation to eliminate blood stasis,therefore,it is not cold formula) has never been too much of an issue due to short treatment periods, or combinations with other medically such as wine(jean:white wine=rice wine,if add herbs,became medicine liquro.Help blood circulation push the stasis) >I have experienced many cases of Jue Yin constitution patients who Dr Shen would name 'nervous system weak' (jean:the meaning in chinese is because nervous weak(liver function depress,nervous weak),people will insomnia,easy get angry,temple point feeling uncomfortable....liver depression turn stasis ) >take Yu Nan Bai Yao and have tremendous amounts of past psycho-emotional material arise on doses of two capsules twice a day. (Jean:if the causes reason is in five reasons above,Yunna pai yao can cure mental disease. If it is schizophrenia,or intemacy(long term heart break might cause blood stasis,but lack of love or because of personality can't develop intemacy is useless),Yunna pai yao is useless for these type mental diseases. Jean ===== -------------------------------- < ¨C¤Ñ³£ ©_¼¯ > www..tw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2001 Report Share Posted November 14, 2001 In a message dated 11/14/01 11:16:57 PM Pacific Standard Time, alstone writes: If it is schizophrenia,or intemacy(long term heart break might cause blood stasis,but lack of love or because of personality can't develop intemacy is useless),Yunna pai yao is useless for these type mental diseases. I concur w/ Jean Su on this. What would you use for schizophrenia or the inability to develop intimacy? Look again to the Zang-Fu and treat what you see? Schizophrenia is terribly difficult to treat with (compliance is low for pharmaceuticals let alone the volume required for TCM) - leave it to standard care methods. Substantive personality disorders such as Jean Su suggests are also not amenable to treatment with TCM. Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2001 Report Share Posted November 14, 2001 , pemachophel2001 wrote: > This is an interesting thread. > > The use of blood-quickening meds in Chinese medical psychiatry has a > long and well documented history, going back as far as Zhang > Zhong-jing and the Jin Gui Yao Lue. While blood stasis is not > typically listed as the main disease mechanism of most psychiatric > disorders (at least not based on the research I did for James Lake's > and my Chinese Medical Psychiatry), blood stasis does commonly evolve > from and complicate all the more commonly thought of psychiatric > disease mechanisms. In fact, blood stasis plays such a common part in > chronic, enduring psychiatric disorders that, several years ago, I > translated a diagnostic algorithm for the discrimination of blood > stasis in integrated Chinese-Western medicine (zhong xi yi jie he) in > which a history of psychiatric disorder was one of the possible > elements that could add up to a diagnosis of blood stasis. > > Based on the importance of blood stasis as an element in psychiatric > disturbances, Blue Poppy Herbs has recently released a formula > originally created and researched in the PRC. In Chinese, it's name is > Jie Yu Ding Mian Fang (Resolve Depression & Stabilize Sleep Formula). > It is indicated for the treatment of severe, recalcitrant insomnia due > to disquieted spirit in turn due to heart yin and blood vacuity with > qi stagnation, possible depressive heat, and blood stasis. Although > the research done on this formula has primarily focused on insomnia, > given the right pattern discrimination, it could potentially be used > for a wide variety of psychiatric disorders based on the TCM > dictum, " Different diseases, same treatment. " Unlike Yunnan Bai Yao, > all its ingredients are well known, standard ones that any student > completing a materia medica class would've studied. > > As for patients dredging up long forgotten memories and emotions and > having various types of " cathartic " experiences, I'd like to add two > things from my own experience. First, before I began my study of > Chinese medicine, I was a bodyworker during the time when > transpersonal psychology, Reichian therapy, bioenergetics, Esalen > massage, Rolfing, Lomi bodywork, and Hakomi body-centered > psychotherapy were all very popular. During or after these kinds of > bodywork sessions, patients would often remember long forgotten (or > repressed) events and/or emotions. I've also often seen this sort of > thing with acupuncture patients. > > However, in my experience, the tendency for this to happen was very > much related to the expectations and desires of the practitioner and > the patient as opposed to the bodywork techniques per se. Some > practitioners seemed to elicit and encourage such events, while other > practitioners using the same techniques never elicited such > experiences in their patients. I know one very well known and regarded > Rolfer who never elicits such experiences, and I know another Rolfer > who almost always does. The first Rolfer is not particularly > interested in psychology or psychotherapy. The second Rolfer is a > Boulder Buddhist and Naropa psychology graduate who is very interested > in such things. > > I mention this because, I believe, such events in patients have more > to do with the practitioner/patient relationship than with the > physical or herbal treatment. I agree 100% > Secondly, if one promotes such a remembrance or dredging up of > repressed emotions, it is my experience that one needs to be trained > how to handle such occurences in a professionally competent way. Mine, too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2001 Report Share Posted November 14, 2001 juliej8 wrote: > That was " Alice " starring Mia Farrow; acupuncture is also mentioned a couple > times by Martin Landau's wife in " Crimes and Misdemeanors " , and ginseng is > mentioned once in " Hubands and Wives " . See? Now that's the kind of memory you need to be an OM herbalist! -- alstone http://BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. -Adlai Stevenson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2001 Report Share Posted November 14, 2001 Jeansu wrote: > if the causes reason is in five reasons > above,Yunna pai yao can cure mental disease. > If it is schizophrenia,or intemacy(long term heart > break might cause blood stasis,but lack of love or > because of personality can't develop intemacy is > useless),Yunna pai yao is useless for > these type mental diseases. What would you use for schizophrenia or the inability to develop intimacy? Look again to the Zang-Fu and treat what you see? -- alstone http://BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. -Adlai Stevenson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2001 Report Share Posted November 15, 2001 Hi,Al, >What would you use for schizophrenia or the inability to develop intimacy? Jean:LOVE,the fifth elements.Ha! I might say that personality disorder or personality causes mental illness,such as serial Killer, is usless by medicine. LOVE might be the last steps.They need family support very much. Psycho-threapy or other skills some times can't be work to these types patients ,too. Unless Patients him/her self has enough courage eager to strenthen their will and jump out the disoder thoughts, and add great deal of LOVE from family. It/s might be work. Otherwise,I can't see any sucessful case in Taiwan. In TCM,there is always disturbed Qi around their mind and brain.Unless they are willing to increase DIN-LI(stayed calme)by patient self.These types patients also had batter not practice Qi-Kun or maditation according to my understand of psycho-pathology both in western and eastern. Dr.Alon might provide us conclusions. Thank you Dr.Alon. And Thank you,too.Dr.Al Jean ===== -------------------------------- < ¨C¤Ñ³£ ©_¼¯ > www..tw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2001 Report Share Posted November 15, 2001 > I concur w/ Jean Su on this. > Will Thank you very much for your support. TCM is not super man. Jean ===== -------------------------------- < ¨C¤Ñ³£ ©_¼¯ > www..tw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2001 Report Share Posted November 15, 2001 personality disorders such as Jean Su suggests are also not amenable to treatment with TCM. >>>>>Or any other treatment Alon - WMorris116 Thursday, November 15, 2001 1:22 AM Re: Digest Number 772 In a message dated 11/14/01 11:16:57 PM Pacific Standard Time, alstone writes: If it is schizophrenia,or intemacy(long term heart break might cause blood stasis,but lack of love or because of personality can't develop intemacy is useless),Yunna pai yao is useless for these type mental diseases. I concur w/ Jean Su on this. What would you use for schizophrenia or the inability to develop intimacy? Look again to the Zang-Fu and treat what you see? Schizophrenia is terribly difficult to treat with (compliance is low for pharmaceuticals let alone the volume required for TCM) - leave it to standard care methods. Substantive personality disorders such as Jean Su suggests are also not amenable to treatment with TCM. Will Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2001 Report Share Posted November 15, 2001 Hi, >personality disorders such as Jean Su suggests are also not amenable to treatment with TCM. >>>>>Or any other treatment Alon Thank you very much .Dr.Alon Jean ===== -------------------------------- < ¨C¤Ñ³£ ©_¼¯ > www..tw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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