lurking pathogens

[Guest guest]

According to guohui liu, lurking warm disease improves by moving from the

interior to the exterior. He also says that such a pathogen can be

a factor in autoimmune dz, allergies, chronic viral infection and improper

use of antibiotics or cold herbs (perhaps all of which are related).

thus, perhaps some of these diseases do improve with a "healing crisis".

-- ,

 

 

FAX:

 

[Guest guest]

According to guohui liu, lurking warm disease improves by moving from the interior to the exterior. He also says that such a pathogen can be a factor in autoimmune dz, allergies, chronic viral infection and improper use of antibiotics or cold herbs (perhaps all of which are related). thus, perhaps some of these diseases do improve with a "healing crisis". --

>>>>>>>By the way I have been reading his book (Warm Diseases Eastland press) and think we finally have a taxtfrom someone that actually truly understand the material he is writing about. The book is vary clear and written for the reader not the writer.

Alon

 

-

cha

Tuesday, November 20, 2001 1:48 AM

lurking pathogens

According to guohui liu, lurking warm disease improves by moving from the interior to the exterior. He also says that such a pathogen can be a factor in autoimmune dz, allergies, chronic viral infection and improper use of antibiotics or cold herbs (perhaps all of which are related). thus, perhaps some of these diseases do improve with a "healing crisis". -- Chinese Herbs FAX: Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

, <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

 

>

> >>>>>>>By the way I have been reading his book (Warm Diseases Eastland press)

and think we finally have a taxtfrom someone that actually truly understand the

material he is writing about. The book is vary clear and written for the reader

not the writer.

>

> Alon

 

He was a clinical supervisor at OCOM when I worked there in the mid

90's. A great clinician and a great teacher.

>

[Guest guest]

He was a clinical supervisor at OCOM when I worked there in the mid 90's. A great clinician and a great teacher.

>>>>You are very lucky

Alon

 

-

 

Tuesday, November 20, 2001 11:30 AM

Re: lurking pathogens

, <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> > >>>>>>>By the way I have been reading his book (Warm Diseases Eastland press) and think we finally have a taxtfrom someone that actually truly understand the material he is writing about. The book is vary clear and written for the reader not the writer. > > AlonHe was a clinical supervisor at OCOM when I worked there in the mid 90's. A great clinician and a great teacher.Todd> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

I would like to join in on singing Dr. Liu's praises. He presented

quite an

impressive weekend seminar this summer at AOMA, Austin, TX.

He presented a section of Warm Diseases most pertinent to this area.

 

I have been awaiting the book and am glad to hear that it is so well

 

written and received.

 

Kit

 

At 07:30 PM 11/20/01 +0000, you wrote:

,

<alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

 

>

> >>>>>>>By the way I have been reading his book

(Warm Diseases Eastland  press) and think we finally have a taxtfrom

someone that actually truly understand the material he is writing about.

The book is vary clear and written for the reader not the writer.

>

> Alon

 

He was a clinical supervisor at OCOM when I worked there in the mid

90's.  A great clinician and a great teacher.

>

 

 

 

 

Sponsor

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

professional services, including board approved online continuing

education.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

, wrote:

 

At a certain

> point, when they are elderly or stressed, the pathogen will flare. If

> you predominantly supplement at this point, then the pathogen will be

> suppressed and brew to cause further damage.

 

And the paradoxical nature of this situation is such that supplementing could

lead to

temporary improvement in the patient's condition when the pathogen is again

suppressed.

Since it would be the lurking pathogen that is the immediate cause of the most

acute sx a

patient would experience (which would thus cause them to go to the doctor), the

perception would be the patient had been cured when the pathogen is suppressed

again.

The repercussions would only be realized later after further brewing and

resurfacing with a

vengeance takes place.

 

I think we really need to consider how to handle this paradox. In between

flareups, if we

tonify, then we aid deeper suppression. But we can't treat the pathogen

directly while it

lurks, what are we to do? Liu wrestles a bit with this controversy and it is no

doubt one of

the reasons many scholars dismissed this theory as difficult to use in practice.

It is my

observation that many illnesses are casually attributed to lurking pathogens

even when in

the remission phase, such as MS. But, again, if the pathogen has not flared,

then it cannot

be drained. Should we consider whether there is value to the observations of 5

generations of naturopaths regarding the induction of healing crises to " reveal

the

pathogen " , so to speak. If no pathogen is revealed, no lasting harm is done.

If it is, then

direct treatment prior to longterm balanced treatment might make a major

difference in

some cases.

 

I should also add that this approach is similar to Ayurveda, where phase one of

chronic

illness treatment is always cleansing before supplementation. As Svoboda

teaches in his

texts on the subject, ayurvedic methods induce a cleansing of toxins first by

softening up

stored " gunk " . It is then expected that all nature of poison will enter the

blood and cause

suffering, so this softening is immediately followed by blood cleansing with

detoxifying

herbs. This is interesting because lurking heat in CM lurks in the nutritive or

blood levels.

When it flares, herbs that clear blood or ying heat are often used. According

to Svoboda,

Ayurveda does not induce the classical healing crisis of naturopathy because it

is

anticipated and treated when the tongue changes before sx bother the patient.

In both

some wen bing passages and in classical ayurveda, the tongue coat will change

from

scanty or thin to thick.

 

Homeopathy has a similar idea. It's called hering's law. It proposes that

deep-lying

pathogens or patterns or miasms, etc. can wreak havoc on the body and when

treated,

they reveal themselves by moving successively to more and more superficial

levels.

Vaccines have always been a culprit to homeopaths and most drugs (and often

herbs) are

viewed suspiciously as suppressive agent. Various pathogens such as syphilis

and

gonorrhea have always played a large role in the homeopathic thought about

chronic

illness. So they did see the direct link between chronic debilitating disorders

being rooted

in slow or hidden STD type infections, a point not often emphasized about

Hahneman's

and Kent's thought. In modern times, nosodes of a wide range of microorganisms

are

used as root treatments. the idea of hering's law or the healing crisis has

also taken a

modern face as the die off reaction accorded to both anti-candida and

anti-mycoplasma

therapy.

 

Unless there is an alternative to just waiting for a latent pathogen to appear,

I think we

consider inducing its appearance as a reasonable therapeutic option. If we are

pretty sure

the patient has such a pathogen, but is also vacuous, then our hands are tied.

Their

vacuity will worsen while we avoid tonfication, knowing this will further

suppress the

pathogen. but neither can we drain. While we wait, the pathogen will just brew

and do

more damage. Could it be that the most ethical thing to do is induce a " healing

crisis " and

follow rapidly with aggressive treatment for a lurking pathogen if and when it

surfaces? I

believe I have worked on a number of cases where either homeopathy or some

" cleansing "

regimen initiated by the patient or another px seeme to have revealed a pattern

that was

otherwise hidden. And these revealed patterns can then be treated with Chinese

herbs to

quickly resolve the crisis. I am just proposing an idea for discussion here and

trying to

draw on both actual chinese sources as well as cross-cultural empirical

observations of

seemingly similar phenomena. I know some would consider it anathema to

introduce

naturopathic style cleansing into TCM, but we must be open to new ideas. The

trick is see

if they make sense in terms of existing precedent or not. New ideas in CM

should be

rooted in classical theory and be a logical derivation thereof.

 

[Guest guest]

Todd is a healing crisis a naturopathic concept? i thought it was homeopathic

alon

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...>

wrote:

is a healing crisis a naturopathic concept? i thought it was homeopathic

> alon

>

 

 

it is essentially part of both, but I associate the term more with naturopathy.

Homeopaths

tend to refer to hering's law or aggravations.

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Todd. Outstanding Thoughts. I have a question for theory and experience.

I'm a begginner, so after consulting with others it seems this approach is done

often, and is the basic mechanism for most chinese herbal tx protocol. If

lurking pathogens are assumed to co-exist and esp pre-exist in a chronic

deficiency syndrome, such as advanced wei syndrome ( where all WM tests have

found nothing whatsoever), would it be reasonable, and in others experience,

effective, to tonify (tonify k. essence, liver blood,and strengthen bones and

sinews), and 'drain' (clear wind-heat-damp, resolve blood stasis, dredge

meridians) simultaneously, with the emphasis a little to draining ? The

presentation and history are very complex. This seems to be the way to go, to

confirm diagnosis by response to treatment.

the formula is based on;

1)tonifying/dredge-resolve-dispel using modified Du Huo Ji Sheng Tang

and Hu Jian Wan

2)detoxify/clear/dredge/resolve using modified Tu Fu Ling Tang and

Quan Bi Tang.

The modifications were approved by a teacher of teachers with whom I've

discussed the case.

And altho I'd like to help, it may be a moot point anyway,because the

patient sees a reimbursed integrative therapist/'energy worker', from a group

with a supervisor in Washington DC, USA, and locations elsewhere, who holds the

formula(s) in one hand and places the other over the patient's liver, and

decides it wouldn't be good for him yet. This is after a months long sessions

of liver cleansing and whatever synergistic modality of the future it is they

do, which has had no effect, or often less for him.

Too many cases like this and I'll need treatment myself. I need to disengage

here.

Scince we are in a confidential discussion, I can say that having spoken with

his partner, before she left, she and other MDs feel he is faking the whole

thing, but I doubt it, even tho the personal info is nottotally reliable.

My main question is how others combine the therapuetics of tonifying and

draining.

Thnx.

 

< wrote:

Clavey translates from the nei jing:

 

" Autumn exposure to damp will lead to cough if it rebels upward, but to

withering of the tendons otherwise. "

 

The last phrase caught my attention because it suggests a connection

between lurking pathogen theory and atrophy syndrome (wei zheng).