Guest guest Posted November 22, 2001 Report Share Posted November 22, 2001 , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > then they should need lower doses of herbs, t>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>Apparently not. And we should also consider that in most old texts the dose is very small. which old texts? the SHL uses large doses, larger than typically used today. Old texts seem to vary on this point. More than half the formulas that were originally prepared as decoctions (tang) in Bensky have most herbs with dosages from 6-12 grams per day. Bensky always lists the dosage from the source text as well as what is used today. Sometimes it is more, sometimes less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2001 Report Share Posted November 22, 2001 Todd: In some Korean texts, the amounts are often smaller than 6-12 grams. What about Japanese and Vietnamese formulas? Jim Ramholz , @i... wrote: > , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > > then they should need lower doses of herbs, t>>>>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>Apparently not. And we should also consider that in most old texts the dose is very small. > > which old texts? the SHL uses large doses, larger than typically used > today. Old texts seem to vary on this point. More than half the > formulas that were originally prepared as decoctions (tang) in Bensky > have most herbs with dosages from 6-12 grams per day. Bensky always > lists the dosage from the source text as well as what is used today. > Sometimes it is more, sometimes less. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2001 Report Share Posted November 23, 2001 6-12g >>>>That is not a large dose. In our hospital we regularly used 15-30g Alon - Thursday, November 22, 2001 10:47 PM Re: dosage/was Healing Crisis... , "Alon Marcus" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> then they should need lower doses of herbs, t>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>Apparently not. And we should also consider that in most old texts the dose is very small.which old texts? the SHL uses large doses, larger than typically used today. Old texts seem to vary on this point. More than half the formulas that were originally prepared as decoctions (tang) in Bensky have most herbs with dosages from 6-12 grams per day. Bensky always lists the dosage from the source text as well as what is used today. Sometimes it is more, sometimes less.ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2001 Report Share Posted November 23, 2001 Japanese >>Often smaller - James Ramholz Thursday, November 22, 2001 10:58 PM Re: dosage/was Healing Crisis...:In some Korean texts, the amounts are often smaller than 6-12 grams. What about Japanese and Vietnamese formulas?Jim Ramholz, @i... wrote:> , "Alon Marcus" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> > then they should need lower doses of herbs, t>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>Apparently not. And we should also consider that in most old texts the dose is very small.> > which old texts? the SHL uses large doses, larger than typically used > today. Old texts seem to vary on this point. More than half the > formulas that were originally prepared as decoctions (tang) in Bensky > have most herbs with dosages from 6-12 grams per day. Bensky always > lists the dosage from the source text as well as what is used today. > Sometimes it is more, sometimes less.> > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2001 Report Share Posted November 23, 2001 , " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > 6-12g > >>>>That is not a large dose. In our hospital we regularly used 15-30g > Alon Not large compared to modern chinese hospitals, but larger than most of my colleagues use, which is more around 3-6 grams per day of each herb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2001 Report Share Posted November 23, 2001 , " James Ramholz " <jramholz> wrote: : > > In some Korean texts, the amounts are often smaller than 6-12 grams. > What about Japanese and Vietnamese formulas? > > Jim Ramholz > I have heard japanese dosage levels do not generate any noticeable short term relief and only demostrate their effectiveness over weeks or months. Can't comment on korean or vietnamese texts. Anyway, I was disputing guohui liu's point that americans are more sensitive to herbs. He pointed out that chinese texts, modern and ancient, use much larger doses than are prescribed by many px here in america. I also was disputing Alon's point that ancient texts use low doses. Apparently low and high are semantic issues as well. the upper end dose of most herbs in bensky's materia medica is 9 g/day. I typically use this while many others I have observed use this amount for 2 days. Flaws may be right that more americans have candida, thus get reactions because of that. However, I do not find this to necessarily be the case if the formula addresses all the mutually engendering pathomechanisms correctly. I see poor reactions much more when the presentation is only partially addressed, which may mean what is really going on is iatrogensis not from dose, but from incomplete prescribing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2001 Report Share Posted November 23, 2001 , @i... wrote: However, I do not find this to necessarily be the > case if the formula addresses all the mutually engendering > pathomechanisms correctly. I see poor reactions much more when the > presentation is only partially addressed, which may mean what is really > going on is iatrogensis not from dose, but from incomplete prescribing. > In fact, I do not see this as a herxheimer's reaction all the time, either. I frequently observe people prescribe tonics without adequate heat clearing or dispersing, which is bound to cause side effects. However, I also see heavy duty dampheat clearing done without adequate tonficition all the time, too. especially in herpes. this dampheat clearing could certainly induce a herxheimer's reaction (candida die off toxicity). My teacher almost always used tonics, damp transformers and heat clearing in all her formulas for chronic illness. I firsat found this perplexing till I saw how well it worked. When Flaws started to write about yin fire, I finally realized where my teacher was coming from. Until that time, I had just copied what I assumed to be an idiosyncratic style. In subsequent years, I have found all the prescribers whose results really impress me to also use this methodology, whether they refer to yin fire or mutuual engenderment or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2001 Report Share Posted November 23, 2001 which is more around 3-6 That low Alon - Friday, November 23, 2001 10:34 AM Re: dosage/was Healing Crisis... , "ALON MARCUS" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> 6-12g> >>>>That is not a large dose. In our hospital we regularly used 15-30g> AlonNot large compared to modern chinese hospitals, but larger than most of my colleagues use, which is more around 3-6 grams per day of each herb.ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2001 Report Share Posted November 23, 2001 Alon's point that ancient texts use low doses. >>>>Look at Treatise on the Spleen Stomach for example Alon - Friday, November 23, 2001 10:44 AM Re: dosage/was Healing Crisis... , "James Ramholz" <jramholz> wrote::> > In some Korean texts, the amounts are often smaller than 6-12 grams. > What about Japanese and Vietnamese formulas?> > Jim Ramholz> I have heard japanese dosage levels do not generate any noticeable short term relief and only demostrate their effectiveness over weeks or months. Can't comment on korean or vietnamese texts. Anyway, I was disputing guohui liu's point that americans are more sensitive to herbs. He pointed out that chinese texts, modern and ancient, use much larger doses than are prescribed by many px here in america. I also was disputing Alon's point that ancient texts use low doses. Apparently low and high are semantic issues as well. the upper end dose of most herbs in bensky's materia medica is 9 g/day. I typically use this while many others I have observed use this amount for 2 days. Flaws may be right that more americans have candida, thus get reactions because of that. However, I do not find this to necessarily be the case if the formula addresses all the mutually engendering pathomechanisms correctly. I see poor reactions much more when the presentation is only partially addressed, which may mean what is really going on is iatrogensis not from dose, but from incomplete prescribing.ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2001 Report Share Posted November 23, 2001 I also see heavy duty dampheat clearing done without adequate tonficition all the time, too. especially in herpes. this dampheat clearing could certainly induce a herxheimer's reaction (candida die off toxicity). My teacher almost always used tonics, damp transformers and heat clearing in all her formulas for chronic illness. I firsat found this perplexing till I saw how well it worked. >>>>>I am supprized almost everyone I studied with altered formula to reflect the above or other issues. Although usually limited to 3. Alon - Friday, November 23, 2001 10:54 AM Re: dosage/was Healing Crisis... , @i... wrote:However, I do not find this to necessarily be the > case if the formula addresses all the mutually engendering > pathomechanisms correctly. I see poor reactions much more when the > presentation is only partially addressed, which may mean what is really > going on is iatrogensis not from dose, but from incomplete prescribing.> In fact, I do not see this as a herxheimer's reaction all the time, either. I frequently observe people prescribe tonics without adequate heat clearing or dispersing, which is bound to cause side effects. However, I also see heavy duty dampheat clearing done without adequate tonficition all the time, too. especially in herpes. this dampheat clearing could certainly induce a herxheimer's reaction (candida die off toxicity). My teacher almost always used tonics, damp transformers and heat clearing in all her formulas for chronic illness. I firsat found this perplexing till I saw how well it worked. When Flaws started to write about yin fire, I finally realized where my teacher was coming from. Until that time, I had just copied what I assumed to be an idiosyncratic style. In subsequent years, I have found all the prescribers whose results really impress me to also use this methodology, whether they refer to yin fire or mutuual engenderment or not.ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2001 Report Share Posted November 23, 2001 > > > Friday, November 23, 2001 10:45 AM > > Re: dosage/was Healing Crisis... > > , " James Ramholz " <jramholz> wrote: > : > > > > In some Korean texts, the amounts are often smaller than 6-12 grams. > > What about Japanese and Vietnamese formulas? > > > > Jim Ramholz > > > > > I have heard japanese dosage levels do not generate any noticeable > short term relief and only demostrate their effectiveness over weeks or > months. Can't comment on korean or vietnamese texts. Anyway, I was > disputing guohui liu's point that americans are more sensitive to > herbs. He pointed out that chinese texts, modern and ancient, use much > larger doses than are prescribed by many px here in america. I also > was disputing Alon's point that ancient texts use low doses. I agree with Todd.. Example Gui zhi tang - (From Mitchell's): Interesting... Gui Zhi 46g Bai shao 46g Gan cao 31g Etc... Is this right? If so, the previous question of sweating is answered.. A much higher dose was prescribed, therefore a much different kind of sweat... Much different from standard packs prescribed today or even giving someone pills or tincture... Am I missing something? this does seem high... and even mentions taking 2-3 packs in one day if really bad... -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2001 Report Share Posted November 23, 2001 , " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > Alon's point that ancient texts use low doses. > >>>>Look at Treatise on the Spleen Stomach for example > Alon Yes, that text used very low dosages (like the 3-6 per herb per day I was referring to). But more than half of the formulas in Bensky use much larger doses. Besides you have argued in the past that the pi wei lun is not an influential text with regard to prescription methodology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2001 Report Share Posted November 24, 2001 Besides you have argued in the past that the pi wei lun is not an influential text with regard to prescription methodology >>>>All I want to say is that there probably always been a range. I personally use higher doses, often modern China i.e. 15-30g Alon - Friday, November 23, 2001 7:47 PM Re: dosage/was Healing Crisis... , "ALON MARCUS" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> Alon's point that ancient texts use low doses. > >>>>Look at Treatise on the Spleen Stomach for example> AlonYes, that text used very low dosages (like the 3-6 per herb per day I was referring to). But more than half of the formulas in Bensky use much larger doses. Besides you have argued in the past that the pi wei lun is not an influential text with regard to prescription methodology.Todd Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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