Chinese medicine needs its own cure

[Guest guest]

, acup@m... wrote:

> This article from the Taipei Times discusses issues recently

> addressed here by the group including bulk vs. extracts, integration

> with Western medicine, and scientific validation. You might find it

> interesting.

>

Very interesting. thanks. Of note was the raw herb shop owner, who in

defending the raw herb method described raw and extracts as " equally

effective " . And those who, while pointing out that TCM methods can

sometimes diagnose ailments missed by western med, welcomed access to

modern diagnostic technology as a leap forward. So integration is not

perceived as a threat, but as a boon. While the article may have been

biased or skewed, I suspect that the taiwanese who live in a fast paced

modern urban society would generally welcome things like powdered

extracts and modern technology. However we feel about what would be

best to preserve TCM as we envision it, the reality in America is that

the average patient wants their acupuncturists to have medical training

and they want to take convenient medications. Nothing is going to

change this and those who oppose it will find themselves on the

margins, not at the center of change. There will always be a small

place for those who practice in a purely traditional fashion. I used

to be such an adherent myself. But from my (current) interpretation of

taoist perspective, one needs to ride the waves of change in any era

and use what is good to create greater harmony. Technology is neutral;

it's impact is in how we use it. So the most important goal for our

field is to decide how to use modern advances without rending the

fabric of our methodology, not to figure out how to avoid them.

 

[Guest guest]

Nothing is going to change this and those who oppose it will find themselves on the margins, not at the center of change.

>>>Amen

 

-

 

Saturday, November 24, 2001 11:24 AM

Re: Chinese medicine needs its own cure

, acup@m... wrote:> This article from the Taipei Times discusses issues recently > addressed here by the group including bulk vs. extracts, integration > with Western medicine, and scientific validation. You might find it > interesting.> Very interesting. thanks. Of note was the raw herb shop owner, who in defending the raw herb method described raw and extracts as "equally effective". And those who, while pointing out that TCM methods can sometimes diagnose ailments missed by western med, welcomed access to modern diagnostic technology as a leap forward. So integration is not perceived as a threat, but as a boon. While the article may have been biased or skewed, I suspect that the taiwanese who live in a fast paced modern urban society would generally welcome things like powdered extracts and modern technology. However we feel about what would be best to preserve TCM as we envision it, the reality in America is that the average patient wants their acupuncturists to have medical training and they want to take convenient medications. Nothing is going to change this and those who oppose it will find themselves on the margins, not at the center of change. There will always be a small place for those who practice in a purely traditional fashion. I used to be such an adherent myself. But from my (current) interpretation of taoist perspective, one needs to ride the waves of change in any era and use what is good to create greater harmony. Technology is neutral; it's impact is in how we use it. So the most important goal for our field is to decide how to use modern advances without rending the fabric of our methodology, not to figure out how to avoid them. ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Certainly, it would be foolish to say all technology is 'bad'. As

with everything, one has to be discerning and selective.

 

One problem I see, however, with the tendency for an integrative

education is that students do not have the time to master many

techniques of both Chinese and biomedical diagnosis, nonetheless use

them in their alloted clinical slots. Mastery of Chinese medical theory

techniques, in my opinion, is essential, and we do not seem to be able

to get enough students to really implement pattern discrimination and

pulse diagnosis. I have no problem with lab tests, neuromuscular

testing, etc., but who really has the time to do all of them? I read

lab tests, x-rays, etc., but refer out for all of them. I barely have

time to do decent pulse, tongue, questioning, and palpation, and then

treat people.

 

As for herbal medicines, I give patients the choice of liquid extracts,

tablets, powders, or raw herbs. Those who are willing (or I feel really

need it) get decoctions. Most like the liquid extracts that Herb Tek

makes for Kan herbs. I also get specially made liquid extracts for my

practice. I do like the KPC powders and tablets, however, as well.

 

 

On Saturday, November 24, 2001, at 09:24 AM, wrote:

 

>   However we feel about what would be

> best to preserve TCM as we envision it, the reality in America is that

> the average patient wants their acupuncturists to have medical training

> and they want to take convenient medications.  Nothing is going to

> change this and those who oppose it will find themselves on the

> margins, not at the center of change. There will always be a small

> place for those who practice in a purely traditional fashion.  I used

> to be such an adherent myself.  But from my (current) interpretation of

> taoist perspective, one needs to ride the waves of change in any era

> and use what is good to create greater harmony.  Technology is neutral;

> it's impact is in how we use it.  So the most important goal for our

> field is to decide how to use modern advances without rending the

> fabric of our methodology, not to figure out how to avoid them.

>

 

>

>

>

 

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I am sorry, but I beg to differ. The people at the center of change

will be those who are excellent in their diagnostic and treatment

skills, and build their reputations on quality, compassion and service.

There are lots of practitioners with lots of gadgets who cannot diagnose

properly, and I don't think this is the future of our medicine. . . at

least I hope not. A high percentage of practitioners in this state do

not do pulse diagnosis or pattern differentiation before treating their

patients. It would be interesting to do a questionnaire on this, as I

hear all the time about practitioners who do not do pulse diagnosis and

rely on totally cookbook, symptomatic treatment.

 

 

On Saturday, November 24, 2001, at 01:10 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

> Nothing is going to

> change this and those who oppose it will find themselves on the

> margins, not at the center of change.

> >>>Amen

>

[Guest guest]

wrote:

 

> I have no problem with lab tests, neuromuscular testing, etc., but who really

has the time to do all of them? I read lab tests, x-rays, etc., but refer out

for all of them. I barely have time to do decent pulse, tongue, questioning, and

palpation, and then treat people.

 

Here in my state, Florida, we will be next year, required to obtain 5 hours in

CEUs for Laboratory Test Findings, and 3 hours CEUs for Imaging Findings. This

as a change in our State laws regarding our scope of practice. I can't help but

worry about the legal consequences that would follow should I miss some vital

bit of information on a lab test or x-ray due to the short amount of training.

Also, how will the results of such lab work direct my treatment from a TCM

perspective? Yes, I could go back to school and increase my understanding of lab

interpretation. But frankly, I rather go to that SHL training up north. This, I

think would be more enjoyable and of more benefit to my patients in

the long run. I hope.

 

Fernando

[Guest guest]

Z'ev,

I don't remember if Ted Kaptchuk said it or a student in the class,

but the observation was made about the forms of herbal medicines, that,

for instance, a slow-dissolving pill may be more appropriate to a certain

kind of person than the quickness of a liquid extract. Some people

like their herbs to come on like a thunderbolt; while others may

like to sit with them a while. That was the gist of it, and I find

this to be true in practice.

 

As for herbal medicines, I give patients the choice of liquid extracts, tablets, powders, or raw herbs.

Those who are willing (or I feel really need it) get decoctions. Most like the liquid extracts that Herb

Tek makes for Kan herbs. I also get specially made liquid extracts for my practice. I do like the KPC

powders and tablets, however, as well.

 

Frances

wrote:

Certainly, it would be foolish to say all technology

is 'bad'. As with everything, one has to be discerning and selective.

One problem I see, however, with the tendency for an integrative education

is that students do not have the time to master many techniques of both

Chinese and biomedical diagnosis, nonetheless use them in their alloted

clinical slots. Mastery of Chinese medical theory techniques, in my opinion,

is essential, and we do not seem to be able to get enough students to really

implement pattern discrimination and pulse diagnosis. I have no problem

with lab tests, neuromuscular testing, etc., but who really has the time

to do all of them? I read lab tests, x-rays, etc., but refer out for all

of them. I barely have time to do decent pulse, tongue, questioning, and

palpation, and then treat people.

As for herbal medicines, I give patients the choice of liquid extracts,

tablets, powders, or raw herbs. Those who are willing (or I feel really

need it) get decoctions. Most like the liquid extracts that Herb Tek makes

for Kan herbs. I also get specially made liquid extracts for my practice.

I do like the KPC powders and tablets, however, as well.

 

On Saturday, November 24, 2001, at 09:24 AM, wrote:

However we feel about what would

be

best to preserve TCM as we envision it, the

reality in America is that

the average patient wants their acupuncturists

to have medical training

and they want to take convenient medications.

Nothing is going to

change this and those who oppose it will find

themselves on the

margins, not at the center of change. There

will always be a small

place for those who practice in a purely traditional

fashion. I used

to be such an adherent myself. But from

my (current) interpretation of

taoist perspective, one needs to ride the

waves of change in any era

and use what is good to create greater harmony.

Technology is neutral;

it's impact is in how we use it. So

the most important goal for our

field is to decide how to use modern advances

without rending the

fabric of our methodology, not to figure out

how to avoid them.

Todd

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization

of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Those that do not try their best at everything they do are just that and adding tools would not change anything for them anyway.

Alon

 

-

 

Saturday, November 24, 2001 8:45 PM

Re: Re: Chinese medicine needs its own cure

I am sorry, but I beg to differ. The people at the center of change will be those who are excellent in their diagnostic and treatment skills, and build their reputations on quality, compassion and service. There are lots of practitioners with lots of gadgets who cannot diagnose properly, and I don't think this is the future of our medicine. . . at least I hope not. A high percentage of practitioners in this state do not do pulse diagnosis or pattern differentiation before treating their patients. It would be interesting to do a questionnaire on this, as I hear all the time about practitioners who do not do pulse diagnosis and rely on totally cookbook, symptomatic treatment.On Saturday, November 24, 2001, at 01:10 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

Nothing is going tochange this and those who oppose it will find themselves on themargins, not at the center of change.>>>Amen

[Guest guest]

Here in my state, Florida, we will be next year, required to obtain 5 hours in CEUs for Laboratory Test Findings, and 3 hours CEUs for Imaging Findings. This as a change in our State laws regarding our scope of practice. I can't help but worry about the legal consequences that would follow should

>>>You better not try with 8 hr class. But remember you will be getting reports with the xrays. The question is more do you know when you need to order tests and which. This can be a question of patient safety but the 8 CEUs required shows how 1/2 assed we do things often

Alon

 

-

fb

Saturday, November 24, 2001 9:31 PM

Re: Re: Chinese medicine needs its own cure

wrote:> I have no problem with lab tests, neuromuscular testing, etc., but who really has the time to do all of them? I read lab tests, x-rays, etc., but refer out for all of them. I barely have time to do decent pulse, tongue, questioning, and palpation, and then treat people.Here in my state, Florida, we will be next year, required to obtain 5 hours in CEUs for Laboratory Test Findings, and 3 hours CEUs for Imaging Findings. This as a change in our State laws regarding our scope of practice. I can't help but worry about the legal consequences that would follow should I miss some vital bit of information on a lab test or x-ray due to the short amount of training. Also, how will the results of such lab work direct my treatment from a TCM perspective? Yes, I could go back to school and increase my understanding of lab interpretation. But frankly, I rather go to that SHL training up north. This, I think would be more enjoyable and of more benefit to my patients inthe long run. I hope.FernandoChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

" fb " wrote:

 

> Also, how will the results of such lab work direct my treatment from a TCM

perspective?

 

I constantly ask myself that same question. Refer a patient out for

urinanalysis and the report comes back indicating a UTI. So, now what?

Add antibiotics to our Ba Zheng San?

 

Patient comes back with no indication of UTI, does that mean we stop

using Ba Zheng San even thought the patient presents with the

appropriate syndrome?

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

[Guest guest]

I constantly ask myself that same question. Refer a patient out forurinalysis and the report comes back indicating a TU. So, now what?Add antibiotics to our Ba Zheng San?Patient comes back with no indication of UTI, does that mean we stopusing Ba Zheng San even thought the patient presents with theappropriate syndrome?>>>>Some times it helps looking at the urine or at other tests and rule out nephritis for example. If a patient looses a kidney you can not defend your self.

Alon

 

-

Al Stone

Monday, November 26, 2001 10:32 AM

Re: Re: Chinese medicine needs its own cure

"fb" wrote:> Also, how will the results of such lab work direct my treatment from a TCM perspective? I constantly ask myself that same question. Refer a patient out forurinanalysis and the report comes back indicating a UTI. So, now what?Add antibiotics to our Ba Zheng San?Patient comes back with no indication of UTI, does that mean we stopusing Ba Zheng San even thought the patient presents with theappropriate syndrome?-- Al Stone L.Ac.<AlStonehttp://www.BeyondWellBeing.comPain is inevitable, suffering is optional.Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

>>> >>>>Some times it helps looking at the urine or at other tests and

rule out nephritis for example. If a patient looses a

kidney you can not defend your self.

Alon<<<

 

Do you do a urinanalysis for every lin syndrome that walks through your door?

 

Where do you draw the line? Fever? Low back pain?

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

[Guest guest]

Do you do a urinanalysis for every lin syndrome that walks through your door?Where do you draw the line? Fever? Low back pain?>>>>>For a u/a infection I look at u/a under microscope first from that I get an idea

Alon

 

-

Al Stone

Monday, November 26, 2001 9:34 PM

Re: Re: Chinese medicine needs its own cure

>>> >>>>Some times it helps looking at the urine or at other tests andrule out nephritis for example. If a patient looses akidney you can not defend your self.Alon<<<Do you do a urinanalysis for every lin syndrome that walks through your door?Where do you draw the line? Fever? Low back pain?-- Al Stone L.Ac.<AlStonehttp://www.BeyondWellBeing.comPain is inevitable, suffering is optional.Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

, " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

 

>

> Patient comes back with no indication of UTI, does that mean we stop

> using Ba Zheng San even thought the patient presents with the

> appropriate syndrome?

>

> >>>>Some times it helps looking at the urine or at other tests and rule out

nephritis for example. If a patient looses a kidney you can not defend your

self.

 

Plus it quantifies your success and proves the efficacy of herbology to

insurers and the skeptical mainstream. Since the case we are talking

about possibly involves prostate cancer as a source of blood in the

urine, I hope everyone would want to know that. Many men do not go to

the doctor and we often function as their primaries. whether we like

it or not, if someone reports possible blood in the urine and we do

nothing, we are liable for failure to refer for standard care. Or

perhaps one would choose to do something different than give ba zheng

san in such a case.

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

- Plus it quantifies your success and proves the efficacy of herbology to insurers and the skeptical mainstream.

>>>You can also become asymptomatic and still be infected. Also the main cause of infartility is acolt infection

Alon

 

Tuesday, November 27, 2001 1:04 AM

Re: Chinese medicine needs its own cure

, "ALON MARCUS" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> > Patient comes back with no indication of UTI, does that mean we stop> using Ba Zheng San even thought the patient presents with the> appropriate syndrome?> > >>>>Some times it helps looking at the urine or at other tests and rule out nephritis for example. If a patient looses a kidney you can not defend your self.Plus it quantifies your success and proves the efficacy of herbology to insurers and the skeptical mainstream. Since the case we are talking about possibly involves prostate cancer as a source of blood in the urine, I hope everyone would want to know that. Many men do not go to the doctor and we often function as their primaries. whether we like it or not, if someone reports possible blood in the urine and we do nothing, we are liable for failure to refer for standard care. Or perhaps one would choose to do something different than give ba zheng san in such a case.Todd Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.