Qi not energy

[Guest guest]

At 6:33 PM +0000 12/1/01, wrote:

>When our profession finally accepts that the long overdue rejection of

>the energy model of qi is proven mathematically, that will be the

>beginning of a sea change. This energy model is not only

>philologically wrong, but its prominence in our field has been a major

>stumbling block to mainstream scientific acceptance. The energy model

>of qi has always been ludicrous and every bonafide physicist who has

>investigated the matter has found the idea laughable. Yet the old

>guard in our field is still teaching students about energy and

> " explaining " the effects of CM with simplistic references to quantum

>physics. Complexity science is much harder to grasp and this may

>explain why it has not been embraced yet in the acupuncture field.

>This will also hopefully finally sound the death knell of those

>practices of so-called energetic medicine that have justified their

>credibility by piggybacking on the venerability of acupuncture, upon

>which their practices are supposedly based.

---

 

I'm not familiar with this debate. Would you mind briefly

outlining the issues, so that I can know what they are, and where to

do further investigation.

 

If its too big a task, I'll understand.

 

TIA

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

Rory,

 

I realize you directed your post to

but I wanted to offer a few comments

and suggestions in response your question

about the " debate " concerning qi4 and

energy. I would have waited for Todd

to respond, but I'm in China and connectivity

can be spotty. So I thought I'd pipe up

while I have the chance.

 

I'm not aware of any outright debate

on this topic. If there is anyone out

there who would like to debate about it,

I'd be happy to.

 

What I believe Todd was getting at is

the fact that there has been a fairly

long-term misunderstanding in the Chinese

medicine community in the States, particularly,

but in English speaking and other Western

zones generally, of the meaning of the word

qi4, not to mention the nature of qi4 itself.

 

Despite the fact that there is an extensive

body of learning and literature on this

subject in China (as well as other Asian

areas), relatively little has appeared in

English concerning the nature, character,

and therefore meaning of qi4.

 

Instead, a fairly quick and easy equation

has been offered up by many writers and

educators between qi4 and energy. Here are

some of the key issues that I find questionable

with this equation.

 

1. The Chinese word qi4 is difficult to

understand for well educated native speakers.

The tendency of classical Chinese words

to polysemy is nowhere more evident than

in qi4.

 

2. The English word energy is somewhat obtuse.

Its meaning in physics is something like:

the capacity for doing work and overcoming

resistance. That's from an old Websters,

but the most current definitions of energy

in physics are scarcely more precise.

Einstein's equation concerning energy

of course defines something of a high water

mark in terms of modern scientific understanding

of the concept. In that its terms include

the cosmological constant, i.e. the speed

of light, Einstein's equation suggests

that there is, indeed something quite

similar between the developing scientific

understanding of energy and the ancient

Chinese notion of qi4. But the two terms

are hardly equivalent in meaning, and

the situation that results from the

long-standing misunderstanding of qi4

as energy is that we have a difficult

concept equated with a somewhat incompletely

defined concept. I think this leads to

a kind of exasperation on the part of

students whom I've often observed to just

throw up their hands and accept that

qi4 doesn't really mean anything. That

it's just a word the Chinese used to

mean whatever it is we beleive they

thought about the body.

 

3. The word qi4 has a vast and ancient

set of meanings that are largely displaced

when it is rendered into English as energy.

The loss of these meanings renders the

term virtually meaningless when you

compare what it has meant down through

the centuries to the meaning of " energy. "

 

4. The understanding of qi4 as energy

leads researchers to devote themselves

to discovering how this " energy " acts

and reacts in and around the body. This

kind of research inspired by misunderstanding

has led to " results " like the " discovery " of

the Bong Han corpuscle, the spurious structure

proffered by the doctor whose name it bears

as the anatomical substrate of the circulation

of qi4 in the human body, back in the 1960s.

 

We wrote the forthcoming book, A Brief History

of Qi, precisely to address questions like the

ones you've asked regarding where to find

sources and references for investigating the

integral meaning of qi4. Bob Felt tells me

that it will be available around the middle

of this month.

 

Like you, I'm interested to find other

sources that shed light on this difficult

concept. And as I said, if anyone wishes

to engage in a debate on the particular

question of whether or not it is correct

to consider qi4 as " energy " I would greatly

appreciate the exercise.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

I believe some of the ideas of Qi4 relating to quantum physics comes from

Gary Zukav's book, The Dancing Wu Li Masters. An attempt at explaining

quantum physics without the math.

 

>Rory Kerr <rorykerr

>

>

> Qi not energy

>Tue, 4 Dec 2001 10:58:39 -0500

>

>At 6:33 PM +0000 12/1/01, wrote:

> >When our profession finally accepts that the long overdue rejection of

> >the energy model of qi is proven mathematically, that will be the

> >beginning of a sea change. This energy model is not only

> >philologically wrong, but its prominence in our field has been a major

> >stumbling block to mainstream scientific acceptance. The energy model

> >of qi has always been ludicrous and every bonafide physicist who has

> >investigated the matter has found the idea laughable. Yet the old

> >guard in our field is still teaching students about energy and

> > " explaining " the effects of CM with simplistic references to quantum

> >physics. Complexity science is much harder to grasp and this may

> >explain why it has not been embraced yet in the acupuncture field.

> >This will also hopefully finally sound the death knell of those

> >practices of so-called energetic medicine that have justified their

> >credibility by piggybacking on the venerability of acupuncture, upon

> >which their practices are supposedly based.

>---

>

> I'm not familiar with this debate. Would you mind briefly

>outlining the issues, so that I can know what they are, and where to

>do further investigation.

>

>If its too big a task, I'll understand.

>

>TIA

>

>Rory

>--

 

 

_______________

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[Guest guest]

I think to whole argument is somewhat disingenuous. First, energy does not have a good definition. Second in the west qi has been qualified as energy plus something, such as life force energy. Life force energy for example as no meaning in science. In chinese qi is often combined with other characters that than qualify the it. As you wrote a whole book on qi it is obvious that no one word will ever defined its meaning. However, the use of the word energy with qualifications is to some degree as good as other words. And since the concepts of mass and energy are being mixed these days the word energy is becoming much more encompassing

Alon

 

-

dragon90405

Wednesday, December 05, 2001 1:26 AM

Re: Qi not energy

Rory,I realize you directed your post to but I wanted to offer a few commentsand suggestions in response your questionabout the "debate" concerning qi4 andenergy. I would have waited for Toddto respond, but I'm in China and connectivitycan be spotty. So I thought I'd pipe upwhile I have the chance.I'm not aware of any outright debateon this topic. If there is anyone outthere who would like to debate about it,I'd be happy to.What I believe Todd was getting at isthe fact that there has been a fairlylong-term misunderstanding in the Chinesemedicine community in the States, particularly,but in English speaking and other Western zones generally, of the meaning of the wordqi4, not to mention the nature of qi4 itself.Despite the fact that there is an extensivebody of learning and literature on thissubject in China (as well as other Asianareas), relatively little has appeared inEnglish concerning the nature, character,and therefore meaning of qi4. Instead, a fairly quick and easy equationhas been offered up by many writers andeducators between qi4 and energy. Here aresome of the key issues that I find questionablewith this equation.1. The Chinese word qi4 is difficult tounderstand for well educated native speakers.The tendency of classical Chinese wordsto polysemy is nowhere more evident thanin qi4. 2. The English word energy is somewhat obtuse.Its meaning in physics is something like:the capacity for doing work and overcomingresistance. That's from an old Websters,but the most current definitions of energyin physics are scarcely more precise.Einstein's equation concerning energyof course defines something of a high watermark in terms of modern scientific understandingof the concept. In that its terms includethe cosmological constant, i.e. the speedof light, Einstein's equation suggests that there is, indeed something quitesimilar between the developing scientificunderstanding of energy and the ancientChinese notion of qi4. But the two termsare hardly equivalent in meaning, andthe situation that results from thelong-standing misunderstanding of qi4as energy is that we have a difficultconcept equated with a somewhat incompletelydefined concept. I think this leads toa kind of exasperation on the part ofstudents whom I've often observed to justthrow up their hands and accept thatqi4 doesn't really mean anything. Thatit's just a word the Chinese used tomean whatever it is we beleive theythought about the body.3. The word qi4 has a vast and ancientset of meanings that are largely displacedwhen it is rendered into English as energy.The loss of these meanings renders theterm virtually meaningless when youcompare what it has meant down throughthe centuries to the meaning of "energy."4. The understanding of qi4 as energyleads researchers to devote themselvesto discovering how this "energy" actsand reacts in and around the body. This kind of research inspired by misunderstandinghas led to "results" like the "discovery" ofthe Bong Han corpuscle, the spurious structureproffered by the doctor whose name it bearsas the anatomical substrate of the circulationof qi4 in the human body, back in the 1960s.We wrote the forthcoming book, A Brief Historyof Qi, precisely to address questions like theones you've asked regarding where to findsources and references for investigating theintegral meaning of qi4. Bob Felt tells methat it will be available around the middleof this month. Like you, I'm interested to find othersources that shed light on this difficultconcept. And as I said, if anyone wishesto engage in a debate on the particularquestion of whether or not it is correctto consider qi4 as "energy" I would greatlyappreciate the exercise.KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

, " burr douglas " <dburrlac@h...> wrote:

 

and where to

> >do further investigation.

 

 

I'd start with Understanding Acupuncture by Birch and Felt. also,

Unschuld's Medicine in China.

 

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

> I think to whole argument is somewhat disingenuous.

 

Not sure what you mean by disingenuous. I can

assure you that I am sincere in stating that

the equation between qi4 and energy is not

only inadequate but counter-productive where

the intended aim is understanding what the

Chinese have long meant when using the word.

 

First, energy does not have a good definition.

 

Yes. Precisely.

 

Second in the west qi has been qualified as energy plus something,

such as life force energy. Life force energy for example as no

meaning in science. In chinese qi is often combined with other

characters that than qualify the it.

 

In the last chapter of A Brief History of Qi,

we've included a list of dozens of such words.

I think that anyone who reads through this list

can appreciate that the use of the English word

energy to stand for qi4 is cumbersome and in

the end does not lead to a clear understanding

of what the Chinese mean when they use it in

such compounds.

 

As you wrote a whole book on qi it is obvious that no one word will

ever defined its meaning.

 

We came to a similar conclusion.

 

However, the use of the word energy with qualifications is to some

degree as good as other words.

 

Not only does qi4 exemplify the function

of the Chinese language of cultivating and

refining knowledge, it stands in a category

of words that embodies the gist of traditional

Chinese understanding of the universe. It is

a unique word. Most linguists hold that if

something can be said in one language or dialect

then it can be said in any other language or

dialect. No doubt this holds true for the vast

majority of instances. But if you take hold

of the integral meanings of qi4 and try to

find an English equivalent that says it all

succinctly it will challenge such a belief.

 

At least it did for us while we were working

on the book. I've often said when asked for

the closest possible English equivalent that

embodies the gist of the Chinese sense of

qi4 that the closest I have been able to come

is the word " connectivity, " since in virtually

all of its meanings and usages, qi4 implies,

represents, depends upon or results in connections

between things and ideas.

 

And since the concepts of mass and energy are being mixed these days

the word energy is becoming much more encompassing

 

But the noteworthy problem remains that

qi4 means neither mass or energy. It

doesn't come from a context that is

congruent with that of modern physics.

I believe the notion of qi4 can be,

indeed has already been of great value

to modern physicists.

 

It was his confrontation with Daoist texts

(which always concern qi4) that led Niels

Bohr to observe that " on the stage of life

we are both actors and audience. " This

perspective, very much derivative of the

idea of qi4, can be found to occupy a

position of primary importance in Bohr's

theory of complementarity which stands

at the bedrock of the foundations of

quantum mechanics.

 

Qi4 is a powerful idea. It stands in a

position of central importance to every

aspect of Chinese medicine. The distortion

of its meaning through its equation with

energy is non-trivial. Nothing is gained

and a great deal is lost through this

equation.

 

And, again, I assure you I am not being

disingenuous when I say this. I may be

wrong and would greatly appreciate it

if anyone can point out the errors in

my understanding, but I do believe what

I'm saying.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

dragon90405 wrote:

 

>

> Qi4 is a powerful idea. It stands in a

> position of central importance to every

> aspect of Chinese medicine. The distortion

> of its meaning through its equation with

> energy is non-trivial. This includes qi4

> being a kind of energy or energy somehow

> or other qualified. Nothing is gained

> and a great deal is lost through this

> equation.

 

It seems then, that if qi is not equated with energy, our current methodology

to teaching qi gong and Tai chi would have to change. What is it then that we

are cultivating through Nei Gong and Qi gong practice? And what would be the

appropriate language to convey this to our

students/patients?

 

Fernando

[Guest guest]

"connectivity," since in virtuallyall of its meanings and usages, qi4 implies,represents, depends upon or results in connectionsbetween things and ideas.>>>>That is interesting. And certainly correct when you think of qi in its deeper meaning. But if one again uses the word energy in its looser, and deeper possibilities, I wander if it is a bad word to use. I certainly what to read your book as I am sure I do not know the depth the word qi.

Alon

 

-

dragon90405

Wednesday, December 05, 2001 6:56 PM

Re: Qi not energy

Alon,> I think to whole argument is somewhat disingenuous.Not sure what you mean by disingenuous. I canassure you that I am sincere in stating thatthe equation between qi4 and energy is notonly inadequate but counter-productive wherethe intended aim is understanding what theChinese have long meant when using the word.First, energy does not have a good definition.Yes. Precisely. Second in the west qi has been qualified as energy plus something, such as life force energy. Life force energy for example as no meaning in science. In chinese qi is often combined with other characters that than qualify the it.In the last chapter of A Brief History of Qi,we've included a list of dozens of such words.I think that anyone who reads through this listcan appreciate that the use of the English wordenergy to stand for qi4 is cumbersome and inthe end does not lead to a clear understandingof what the Chinese mean when they use it insuch compounds. As you wrote a whole book on qi it is obvious that no one word will ever defined its meaning.We came to a similar conclusion.However, the use of the word energy with qualifications is to some degree as good as other words.Not only does qi4 exemplify the functionof the Chinese language of cultivating andrefining knowledge, it stands in a categoryof words that embodies the gist of traditionalChinese understanding of the universe. It isa unique word. Most linguists hold that ifsomething can be said in one language or dialectthen it can be said in any other language ordialect. No doubt this holds true for the vastmajority of instances. But if you take holdof the integral meanings of qi4 and try tofind an English equivalent that says it allsuccinctly it will challenge such a belief.At least it did for us while we were workingon the book. I've often said when asked forthe closest possible English equivalent thatembodies the gist of the Chinese sense ofqi4 that the closest I have been able to comeis the word "connectivity," since in virtuallyall of its meanings and usages, qi4 implies,represents, depends upon or results in connectionsbetween things and ideas.And since the concepts of mass and energy are being mixed these days the word energy is becoming much more encompassingBut the noteworthy problem remains thatqi4 means neither mass or energy. Itdoesn't come from a context that iscongruent with that of modern physics.I believe the notion of qi4 can be,indeed has already been of great valueto modern physicists.It was his confrontation with Daoist texts(which always concern qi4) that led NielsBohr to observe that "on the stage of lifewe are both actors and audience." Thisperspective, very much derivative of theidea of qi4, can be found to occupy aposition of primary importance in Bohr'stheory of complementarity which standsat the bedrock of the foundations ofquantum mechanics.Qi4 is a powerful idea. It stands in aposition of central importance to everyaspect of Chinese medicine. The distortionof its meaning through its equation withenergy is non-trivial. Nothing is gainedand a great deal is lost through thisequation.And, again, I assure you I am not beingdisingenuous when I say this. I may bewrong and would greatly appreciate itif anyone can point out the errors inmy understanding, but I do believe whatI'm saying.KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

First, energy does not have a good definition.Yes. Precisely.

>>>>I think that is true for qi as well. Even in chinese

Alon

 

-

dragon90405

Wednesday, December 05, 2001 6:58 PM

Re: Qi not energy

Alon,> I think to whole argument is somewhat disingenuous.Not sure what you mean by disingenuous. I canassure you that I am sincere in stating thatthe equation between qi4 and energy is notonly inadequate but counter-productive wherethe intended aim is understanding what theChinese have long meant when using the word.First, energy does not have a good definition.Yes. Precisely. Second in the west qi has been qualified as energy plus something, such as life force energy. Life force energy for example as no meaning in science. In chinese qi is often combined with other characters that than qualify the it.In the last chapter of A Brief History of Qi,we've included a list of dozens of such words.I think that anyone who reads through this listcan appreciate that the use of the English wordenergy to stand for qi4 is cumbersome and inthe end does not lead to a clear understandingof what the Chinese mean when they use it insuch compounds. As you wrote a whole book on qi it is obvious that no one word will ever defined its meaning.We came to a similar conclusion.However, the use of the word energy with qualifications is to some degree as good as other words.Not only does qi4 exemplify the functionof the Chinese language of cultivating andrefining knowledge, it stands in a categoryof words that embodies the gist of traditionalChinese understanding of the universe. It isa unique word. Most linguists hold that ifsomething can be said in one language or dialectthen it can be said in any other language ordialect. No doubt this holds true for the vastmajority of instances. But if you take holdof the integral meanings of qi4 and try tofind an English equivalent that says it allsuccinctly it will challenge such a belief.At least it did for us while we were workingon the book. I've often said when asked forthe closest possible English equivalent thatembodies the gist of the Chinese sense ofqi4 that the closest I have been able to comeis the word "connectivity," since in virtuallyall of its meanings and usages, qi4 implies,represents, depends upon or results in connectionsbetween things and ideas.And since the concepts of mass and energy are being mixed these days the word energy is becoming much more encompassingBut the noteworthy problem remains thatqi4 means neither mass or energy. Itdoesn't come from a context that iscongruent with that of modern physics.I believe the notion of qi4 can be,indeed has already been of great valueto modern physicists.It was his confrontation with Daoist texts(which always concern qi4) that led NielsBohr to observe that "on the stage of lifewe are both actors and audience." Thisperspective, very much derivative of theidea of qi4, can be found to occupy aposition of primary importance in Bohr'stheory of complementarity which standsat the bedrock of the foundations ofquantum mechanics.Qi4 is a powerful idea. It stands in aposition of central importance to everyaspect of Chinese medicine. The distortionof its meaning through its equation withenergy is non-trivial. This includes qi4being a kind of energy or energy somehowor other qualified. Nothing is gainedand a great deal is lost through thisequation.And, again, I assure you I am not beingdisingenuous when I say this. I may bewrong and would greatly appreciate itif anyone can point out the errors inmy understanding, but I do believe whatI'm saying.KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

 

 

"connectivity," since in virtuallyall of its meanings and usages, qi4 implies,represents, depends upon or results in connectionsbetween things and ideas.[stephen Morrissey] It is my view that the wide use of the word energy among western TCM'ers comes from a variety of loose correlations that have been made, which among them is the symptom/sign complex associated with qi xu as well as the well documented potential benefits of taking zhuang qi herbs. While no one can dispute the position that no single English language word can represent the complete meaning of qi, the use of the word energy may in fact be more relevant than many of the other single words that has been proposed, including connectivity. Certainly a lack of proper connectivity between metabolic systems, whether associated with vacuity or aberrant mechanics, cannot occur without intricate repercussions on the body's energy, as currently defined by science... My understanding is that there are three basic forms of energy that to date have been clearly distinguished by science. These are: gravity, electromagnetism, and the nuclear force, both weak and strong. These forces certainly permeate all living matter and appear to be disturbed in a way that is concurrent with and reflective of dysfunctional physiology. Therefore connectivity and energy would appear to be inseparably linked. In reality, if you want to find a single word in English to mean the same as qi you will have to make up a new word. So why not use something novel, like "Qi". Then we merely have to come up with an accurate definition.

 

Stephen

 

-

 

dragon90405

Wednesday, December 05, 2001 6:56 PM

Re: Qi not energy

Alon,> I think to whole argument is somewhat disingenuous.Not sure what you mean by disingenuous. I canassure you that I am sincere in stating thatthe equation between qi4 and energy is notonly inadequate but counter-productive wherethe intended aim is understanding what theChinese have long meant when using the word.First, energy does not have a good definition.Yes. Precisely. Second in the west qi has been qualified as energy plus something, such as life force energy. Life force energy for example as no meaning in science. In chinese qi is often combined with other characters that than qualify the it.In the last chapter of A Brief History of Qi,we've included a list of dozens of such words.I think that anyone who reads through this listcan appreciate that the use of the English wordenergy to stand for qi4 is cumbersome and inthe end does not lead to a clear understandingof what the Chinese mean when they use it insuch compounds. As you wrote a whole book on qi it is obvious that no one word will ever defined its meaning.We came to a similar conclusion.However, the use of the word energy with qualifications is to some degree as good as other words.Not only does qi4 exemplify the functionof the Chinese language of cultivating andrefining knowledge, it stands in a categoryof words that embodies the gist of traditionalChinese understanding of the universe. It isa unique word. Most linguists hold that ifsomething can be said in one language or dialectthen it can be said in any other language ordialect. No doubt this holds true for the vastmajority of instances. But if you take holdof the integral meanings of qi4 and try tofind an English equivalent that says it allsuccinctly it will challenge such a belief.At least it did for us while we were workingon the book. I've often said when asked forthe closest possible English equivalent thatembodies the gist of the Chinese sense ofqi4 that the closest I have been able to comeis the word "connectivity," since in virtuallyall of its meanings and usages, qi4 implies,represents, depends upon or results in connectionsbetween things and ideas.And since the concepts of mass and energy are being mixed these days the word energy is becoming much more encompassingBut the noteworthy problem remains thatqi4 means neither mass or energy. Itdoesn't come from a context that iscongruent with that of modern physics.I believe the notion of qi4 can be,indeed has already been of great valueto modern physicists.It was his confrontation with Daoist texts(which always concern qi4) that led NielsBohr to observe that "on the stage of lifewe are both actors and audience." Thisperspective, very much derivative of theidea of qi4, can be found to occupy aposition of primary importance in Bohr'stheory of complementarity which standsat the bedrock of the foundations ofquantum mechanics.Qi4 is a powerful idea. It stands in aposition of central importance to everyaspect of Chinese medicine. The distortionof its meaning through its equation withenergy is non-trivial. Nothing is gainedand a great deal is lost through thisequation.And, again, I assure you I am not beingdisingenuous when I say this. I may bewrong and would greatly appreciate itif anyone can point out the errors inmy understanding, but I do believe whatI'm saying.KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Fernando,

>

> It seems then, that if qi is not equated with energy, our current

methodology to teaching qi gong and Tai chi would have to change.

 

I guess that depends on what " our current

methodology " is. Certainly as we cultivate

our understanding of the concepts and therefore

the terminology of these disciplines, our

study and teaching change accordingly.

 

When asked how students can be sure that

what they are being taught and what they

are practicing is correct, Cheng Man Ching

replied that we should study the classics

and if what we're doing conforms to what

is described therein, then we can be

confident that we're on the right road.

 

I know that I studied tai4 ji2 more than twenty

years before I had any clear understanding

of what was meant by the phrase, " sink the

qi4 to the dan1 tian2 " . Not the least of

my difficulties were the two key terms in

this instruction: dan1 tian2 and qi4.

 

I remember my teachers in the early years

of my study would always just chuckle if

I pressed them for answers to what these

words meant. " Struggle with it, " is the

basic answer I always still get when I

ask most teachers to help me understand.

" And when you've struggled with it long

enough, then you'll stop struggling. "

 

All I can say about the need for change

is that it seems constant.

 

What is it then that we are cultivating through Nei Gong and Qi gong

practice?

 

Qi4.

 

And what would be the appropriate language to convey this to our

> students/patients?

 

That's why we wrote the book, i.e. to

provide people with some language that

is appropriate for the study, teaching

and application of qi4.

 

The Tai4 ji2 classics contain this line:

 

To enter the door and be shown the way

you must be orally taught.

The technique is continuous and is

achieved through self study.

 

What we've done in A Brief History of Qi

is to compile and collate a broad spectrum

of transmissions on the subject of qi4 in

order to offer them to serious students who seek

the benefit of the oral teaching...at least

those aspects of it that can be written down.

 

I am reminded yet again of that passage

from Da4 Xue2, the Confucian classic:

 

The men of old, wanting to clarify and diffuse throughout the empire

that light which comes from looking straight into the heart and then

acting, first set up good government in their own states; wanting

good government in their states, they first established order in

their own families; wanting order in the home, they first disciplined

themselves; desiring self-discipline, they rectified their own

hearts; and wanting to rectify their hearts, they sought precise

verbal definitions of their inarticulate thoughts [the tones given

off by the heart]; wishing to attain precise verbal definitions,

they set to extend their knowledge to the utmost. This completion of

knowledge is rooted in sorting things into organic categories.

 

This passage is quoted from the Ezra Pound

translation of the Confucian classics, published

by New Directions. I believe it's still in print.

 

I cite it in the context of this discussion

because of its relevance to the discussion

of qi4 and in response to your question

regarding appropriate language for communicating

with patients and students (or anyone else

for that matter) about qi4. Despite the

fact that it is not mentioned in this passage,

it is not at all difficult to recognize the

presence of qi4 in the formula given...and

followed by Chinese thinkers for centuries.

 

The importance of this self-study aspect

(in other words of an individual's personal

qi4 gong1) cannot be over emphasized.

 

What do you think?

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Stephen,

 

>In reality, if you want to

> find a single word in English to mean the same as qi you will have

to make

> up a new word. So why not use something novel, like " Qi " . Then we

merely

> have to come up with an accurate definition.

 

I don't disagree. And I want to make it

clear that what I said in my earlier

post was in no way intended to suggest

that anybody should adopt the word

" connectivity " as a translation for qi4.

That's simply the word that I give

when asked for a better English equivalent.

But I'll add that " connectivity " in no

way even begins to approach the scope

of meanings of the Chinese word.

 

Personally, I am content to just use qi4,

as I know of no other way to say it.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

dragon90405 wrote:

 

>

> The importance of this self-study aspect

> (in other words of an individual's personal

> qi4 gong1) cannot be over emphasized.

>

> What do you think?

>

 

Ken,

 

Thanks, I will chew on this for a while!

 

Fernando

 

 

 

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in

Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including

board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/6/01 6:03:51 PM Pacific Standard Time, yulong writes:

 

 

Qi4 might be concisely described as the

connection between heaven and earth, the

sum total of what results as a consequence

of the differentiation of yin1 and yang2.

 

 

or the maintenance of their interactions -

 

Will

[Guest guest]

, " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> I think to whole argument is somewhat disingenuous. First, energy does not

have a good definition. Second in the west qi has been qualified as energy plus

something, such as life force energy.

 

this is not completely correct. the devices used by many " energy

medicine " specialists do not measure some mysterious life force, they

measure things like electrical resistance.

 

[Guest guest]

the devices used by many "energy medicine" specialists do not measure some mysterious life force, they measure things like electrical resistance.>>>>except that their use of energy is of course meaningless. If they would say skin impedance energy I would have no problem

Alon

 

-

1

Thursday, December 06, 2001 5:53 PM

Re: Qi not energy

, "ALON MARCUS" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> I think to whole argument is somewhat disingenuous. First, energy does not have a good definition. Second in the west qi has been qualified as energy plus something, such as life force energy.this is not completely correct. the devices used by many "energy medicine" specialists do not measure some mysterious life force, they measure things like electrical resistance.ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

using the same orsimilar methods to those employed fordealing with energy.>>>What are these

Alon

 

-

dragon90405

Thursday, December 06, 2001 8:02 PM

Re: Qi not energy

Fernando,> > Thanks, I will chew on this for a while!A thought popped into my mind this morningthat I wanted to pass along in the hopesthat it might make the chewing easier...or more thorough.Qi4 might be concisely described as theconnection between heaven and earth, thesum total of what results as a consequenceof the differentiation of yin1 and yang2.When asked if he could concisely sum uphis more than four decades of study andpractice of tai4 ji2, Prof. Zheng repliedthat that would be simple and he could doit in just twelve characters: breathe inqi4 from heaven; receive strength from earth; longevity through softness.I think that in the study of tai4 ji2and other so-called internal arts, itis particularly and critically importantthat qi4 be differentiated from energy.One of the consequences of equating thesetwo words/ideas is that it gives to qi4the decidedly "external" characteristicswhich we associate with "energy" in itsvarious forms. This leads people quitenaturally to believe that and proceed as ifthey can handle qi4 using the same orsimilar methods to those employed fordealing with energy.For the tai4 ji2 player, nothing couldbe further from the truth, for the developmentof internal technique requires and proceedsfrom a somewhat different deployment ofthe mind. I believe that this is alsotrue of those who seek other methods ofcultivation based upon Daoist ideasand ideals.KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Fernando,

>

> Thanks, I will chew on this for a while!

 

A thought popped into my mind this morning

that I wanted to pass along in the hopes

that it might make the chewing easier...

or more thorough.

 

Qi4 might be concisely described as the

connection between heaven and earth, the

sum total of what results as a consequence

of the differentiation of yin1 and yang2.

 

When asked if he could concisely sum up

his more than four decades of study and

practice of tai4 ji2, Prof. Zheng replied

that that would be simple and he could do

it in just twelve characters: breathe in

qi4 from heaven; receive strength from

earth; longevity through softness.

 

I think that in the study of tai4 ji2

and other so-called internal arts, it

is particularly and critically important

that qi4 be differentiated from energy.

One of the consequences of equating these

two words/ideas is that it gives to qi4

the decidedly " external " characteristics

which we associate with " energy " in its

various forms. This leads people quite

naturally to believe that and proceed as if

they can handle qi4 using the same or

similar methods to those employed for

dealing with energy.

 

For the tai4 ji2 player, nothing could

be further from the truth, for the development

of internal technique requires and proceeds

from a somewhat different deployment of

the mind. I believe that this is also

true of those who seek other methods of

cultivation based upon Daoist ideas

and ideals.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

methods to those employed for

> dealing with energy.

> >>>What are these

 

I'm referring to the various methods

humans have of dealing with various

kinds or forms of energy. We run

electrical energy through wires

and circuits; we attract the energy

of lightning bolts to rods; we derive

energy from petroleum by burning it;

we collect solar energy; etc. etc.

 

These are all methods of dealing

with energy, and the point I was

trying to make is that from the

point of view of the internal arts

such as tai4 ji2, these all fall

into the external category.

 

In terms of the body, the use of

energy to bind the sinews and employ

the leverage that the skeletal

muscles can exert on the bones

to develop and focus force in

a particular direction is known

as li4. This is the typical

way in which humans use their

bodies, i.e. it's the description

of the habitual human use of

energy. And it's the thing that

we study and practice overcoming

in tai4 ji2. One of the most

common sayings among tai4 ji2

students and teachers virtually

everywhere (whether or not they

actually achieve it) is: use mind

not li4.

 

The confusion between qi4 and energy

when energy is previously understood

to be li4 is particularly problematic

for tai4 ji2 students I find. One of

the key points that characterizes the

practice of the internal arts is the

differentiation of qi4, along with the internal

power that generates from it, and li4.

 

This is just one example of the kinds

of problems that arise from the equation

of " qi4 " and " energy. " Naturally the

various energetic phenomena are all

embraced by qi4, since to the Chinese

mind everything is embraced by qi4.

But the attitude of these two words

is entirely different. And to take

things that are different as the same

is a considerable problem.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

well then what to you call the kinetic motion of you internal movements? and what do you call the forces that hold your cells together? etc. I think there is a misunderstanding of energy

Alon

 

-

dragon90405

Thursday, December 06, 2001 6:54 PM

Re: Qi not energy

Alon,methods to those employed for> dealing with energy.> >>>What are theseI'm referring to the various methodshumans have of dealing with variouskinds or forms of energy. We runelectrical energy through wiresand circuits; we attract the energyof lightning bolts to rods; we deriveenergy from petroleum by burning it;we collect solar energy; etc. etc.These are all methods of dealingwith energy, and the point I wastrying to make is that from thepoint of view of the internal artssuch as tai4 ji2, these all fallinto the external category. In terms of the body, the use ofenergy to bind the sinews and employthe leverage that the skeletalmuscles can exert on the bonesto develop and focus force ina particular direction is knownas li4. This is the typicalway in which humans use theirbodies, i.e. it's the descriptionof the habitual human use of energy. And it's the thing thatwe study and practice overcomingin tai4 ji2. One of the mostcommon sayings among tai4 ji2students and teachers virtuallyeverywhere (whether or not theyactually achieve it) is: use mindnot li4.The confusion between qi4 and energywhen energy is previously understoodto be li4 is particularly problematicfor tai4 ji2 students I find. One ofthe key points that characterizes thepractice of the internal arts is thedifferentiation of qi4, along with the internalpower that generates from it, and li4.This is just one example of the kindsof problems that arise from the equationof "qi4" and "energy." Naturally thevarious energetic phenomena are allembraced by qi4, since to the Chinesemind everything is embraced by qi4.But the attitude of these two wordsis entirely different. And to takethings that are different as the sameis a considerable problem.KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.