Shao Yang syndrome

[Guest guest]

Fernando,

As you may know, in Japan 16 deaths were attributed to giving xiao

chai hu tang to patients undergoing interferon therapy. Therefore, it

wouldn't be a good idea, to say the least, to give the prescription

concurrently with interferon therapy.

 

I have used chai hu si wu tang on some patients with Hep C, when there

is a combination shao yang/jue yin pattern.

 

I have had one patient whose liver panels (SGOT, SGPT) went up on chai

hu prescriptions, and had to stop. When I asked Michael Broffman about

it, he pointed out that chai hu is a very aggressive medicinal that goes

directly to the liver, and is not polite. It will stir up things,

leading to aggravation of the virus if the liver is weak. In cases of

vacuity patterns, one should also supplement blood and yin. . . .so chai

hu si wu tang may be a good choice when there is concurrent blood and

yin vacuity and/or liver qi/blood depression. Or use a five phase

strategy and treat indirectly.

 

 

On Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 04:49 PM, fbernall wrote:

 

> Will,

>

> how would you  modify xcht if the above patient has also been

> diagnosed with  Hepatitis C (and hopefully told you about it) and is

> under interferon therapy?

>

> Should you remove Chai Hu, would the formula be just as effective?

>

> Also, is it still unethical/illegal to ask a patient if he/she has

> been diagnosed with hepatitis?

>

> fernando

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Question: since the patients were given the entire formula, could it had been the synergistic effect of the rx ingredients the culprit? Or just the presence of Chai Hu?>>>Probably the entire formula. Since it seems that xiao chi wu increases interferon as well resulting in toxic levels '

Alon

 

-

fbernall

Tuesday, December 11, 2001 7:34 PM

Re: Shao Yang syndrome

, "" <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:> Fernando,> As you may know, in Japan 16 deaths were attributed to giving xiao > chai hu tang to patients undergoing interferon therapy. Z'ev, thanks, I've read some literature on the subject. Did not know that 16 deaths took place. Question: since the patients were given the entire formula, could it had been the synergistic effect of the rx ingredients the culprit? Or just the presence of Chai Hu?> I have had one patient whose liver panels (SGOT, SGPT) went up on chai hu prescriptions, and had to stop. If one's assessment calls for a prescription with chai hu, and since there are so many asymptomatic hep c patients, would you ask the pt to have a liver profile test just to make sure you cause no harm?And if the pt chooses not to have a test, would you still treat the pt?fernandoChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

practiced with an MD in Delaware and he was not allowed to ask about Aids or hep c. Nonetheless, if he had any suspicions a "routine" blood test was ordered. >>>You are kidding? I know it was illegal for a while to write on the chart that a patient had aids and you had to use codes. But not ask about hep c I have never heard of this anywhere. It is part of history taking in any wm workup

Alon

 

-

fbernall

Tuesday, December 11, 2001 7:43 PM

Re: Shao Yang syndrome

Will, thanks, I now live in Florida, however for a couple of years I practiced with an MD in Delaware and he was not allowed to ask about Aids or hep c. Nonetheless, if he had any suspicions a "routine" blood test was ordered. , WMorris116@A... wrote:> Fernando,> > > > > > how would you modify xcht if the above patient has also been > > diagnosed with Hepatitis C (and hopefully told you about it) and is > > under interferon therapy?> > > > Remove Chai Hu and add Qing Hao. I would also consider using Bu Zhong Yi Qi > Tang, Ling Zhi, Wu Wei Zi, Han Lian Cao, and Nu Zhen Zi.> > > Should you remove Chai Hu, would the formula be just as effective?> > > > Also, is it still unethical/illegal to ask a patient if he/she has > > been diagnosed with hepatitis?> > > > I would think you are ethically bound to make the inquiry. What state do you > live in? Ethics are a complex inquiry and are closely linked to legal > structure.> > WillChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

, " " <zrosenbe@s...>

wrote:

> Fernando,

> As you may know, in Japan 16 deaths were attributed to giving

xiao

> chai hu tang to patients undergoing interferon therapy.

 

Z'ev, thanks, I've read some literature on the subject. Did not know

that 16 deaths took place.

 

Question: since the patients were given the entire formula, could it

had been the synergistic effect of the rx ingredients the culprit? Or

just the presence of Chai Hu?

 

> I have had one patient whose liver panels (SGOT, SGPT) went up on

chai hu prescriptions, and had to stop.

 

If one's assessment calls for a prescription with chai hu, and since

there are so many asymptomatic hep c patients, would you ask the pt to

have a liver profile test just to make sure you cause no harm?

And if the pt chooses not to have a test, would you still treat the

pt?

 

fernando

[Guest guest]

Will, thanks, I now live in Florida, however for a couple of years I

practiced with an MD in Delaware and he was not allowed to ask about

Aids or hep c. Nonetheless, if he had any suspicions a " routine " blood

test was ordered.

 

 

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

> Fernando,

>

>

> >

> > how would you modify xcht if the above patient has also been

> > diagnosed with Hepatitis C (and hopefully told you about it) and

is

> > under interferon therapy?

> >

>

> Remove Chai Hu and add Qing Hao. I would also consider using Bu

Zhong Yi Qi

> Tang, Ling Zhi, Wu Wei Zi, Han Lian Cao, and Nu Zhen Zi.

>

> > Should you remove Chai Hu, would the formula be just as effective?

> >

> > Also, is it still unethical/illegal to ask a patient if he/she has

> > been diagnosed with hepatitis?

> >

>

> I would think you are ethically bound to make the inquiry. What

state do you

> live in? Ethics are a complex inquiry and are closely linked to

legal

> structure.

>

> Will

[Guest guest]

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

 

> Shao Yang

>

> Cellular immunity is weak and so is the pathogen.

 

Heiner Fruehauf teaches the same thing.

 

[Guest guest]

, " fbernall " <fbernall@i...> wrote:

 

>

> Question: since the patients were given the entire formula, could it

> had been the synergistic effect of the rx ingredients the culprit? Or

> just the presence of Chai Hu?

 

I helped write a drug/herb interaction software package. In my

research,it appeared that there was no definitive answer to which herb

in XCHT was the culprit. In fact, gan cao was highly suspected. FYI,

the interaction resulted from XCHT increasing the potency of

interferon. By using a lower dose of interferon, the reaction could

have been avoided. This illustrates an opportunity in integrative

medicine. Since interferon has some bad side effects on its own,

decreasing the dose necessary would be desirable. Properly combined

with XCHT,one may get the benefits of interferon w/o side effects plus

the benefits of XCHT on the whole pattern. NOTE: do not try this at

home. I am suggesting a research protocol.

 

[Guest guest]

is this software available?

 

Fernando

 

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

> , " fbernall " <fbernall@i...> wrote:

>

> >

> > Question: since the patients were given the entire formula, could

it

> > had been the synergistic effect of the rx ingredients the culprit?

Or

> > just the presence of Chai Hu?

>

> I helped write a drug/herb interaction software package. In my

> research,it appeared that there was no definitive answer to which

herb

> in XCHT was the culprit. In fact, gan cao was highly suspected.

FYI,

> the interaction resulted from XCHT increasing the potency of

> interferon. By using a lower dose of interferon, the reaction could

> have been avoided. This illustrates an opportunity in integrative

> medicine. Since interferon has some bad side effects on its own,

> decreasing the dose necessary would be desirable. Properly combined

> with XCHT,one may get the benefits of interferon w/o side effects

plus

> the benefits of XCHT on the whole pattern. NOTE: do not try this

at

> home. I am suggesting a research protocol.

>

 

[Guest guest]



Cellular immunity is weak and so is the pathogen

>>>>>Why only cellular? also does that mean we can check blood levels for confirmation?

Alon

 

-

WMorris116

Cc: WilliamLZuby

Tuesday, December 11, 2001 9:58 AM

Re: Re: Shao Yang syndrome

These are the opinions of Yang Meiqiang. He maintains that SHL has 1900 year history of use and can be used from a biomedical-scientific point of view. Dr Yang had a conversion 30 years ago when children were dying of a combined pneumonia and small pox epidemic. Biomedical approaches were failing and in his position as hospital chief, he allowed the SHL specialist to see a case. This went successfully as a Shao Yin diagnosis. So they went to the SHL specialist's teacher the three men devised a treatment plan for delivery to the other hospitals in the region. Dr Yang has followed SHL and his two dedicated SHL specialist teachers for the last 30 years now. Shao Yang Cellular immunity is weak and so is the pathogen. Low toxicity causes a lower fever. Aversion to cold is only slight. This is because the endopyrogens are low so the fever is low. Depending on which aspect there will be more aversion to fever or more aversion to cold. It is more common than Tai Yang especially in children and elderly. It is the first choice and can cover many disorders. Though the toxins weak, it is still a toxin which will cause disorder of the vegetative nervous system the Sympathetic Main symptoms are nervous system or digestive such as bitter mouth, dry throat, dizziness, or headache. These are due to slight toxins attacking the body. If there are no toxins but emotional disorders, the same symptoms may be present. Depression thus applies to Shao Yang disease. This is why it is the most commonly prescribed formula. Xiang Huo premiere fire – due to emotional disorders. The sympathetic stimulation that takes place in the Tai Yang Stage lingers and affects gut function. Dr Yang studied this and showed that there is a reduction of gastrin, cholecystokinin, and enterase under the influence of the sympathetic dominant state caused by a presence of pathogens in the system. This concurs with my experience and what I have taught on this subject for the last 9 years. Often, my first indication that the Shao Yang may be penetrated is loss of appetite. It is easy enough to rule out the other patterns, they are much more severe. To be redundant: give me a patient with wind cold or wind heat attack. Let the pulse be no longer floating but wiry, and let there be a loss of appetite - bingo. I will begin to add XCHT to the external relieving formula in proportion to the distribution of symptoms. Will If cold or fever are not very severe give Xiao Chai Hu Tang. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.