RE: Shao Yang syndrome - Pulse

[Guest guest]

Hi Will and others,

 

I have felt this type of pulse, faster in one position then in another. I am so new to pulse differentiation... that I am not sure what it is. Most of the patients I see are on 8 to 15 different Western drugs, and it is difficult for me, because I always think that all the drugs are having a huge impact on the pulse! How do you differentiate? I have began to read Leon Hammer's Pulse book... in search of answers.

 

Teresa

Have you read the Golden Cabinet? There are discussions about pulses being faster in one position than another. I am curious what people on the list make of this finding. Wang Shuhe has some commentary in the Mai Jing. Remember Wang Shu-he reconstructed the Shang Han Za Bing Lun and created the Mai Jing. Will Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

 

 

WMorris116

[WMorris116]

 

 

 

 

Critical components are

often simple and powerful. Further details could well obfuscate an eloquent and

deeply meaningful message.

 

 

 

 

Ok..

Again lets follow the logic here. We have a book that :

1) barely

makes references to the pulse,

2) when

it does, it mentions only the most basic qualities, and rarely even mentions

positions,

3) makes

no statements in the text to indicate that the pulse is an important/ essential

part of the diagnosis. Even noticing the order of symptoms listed for a presentation,

it is usually understood that Dr.ZZJ lists the s/s in

order of importance, the pulse may or may not be given, and when it is, it is

usually far down the line,

4) I have seen no commentaries

that make mention the importance/ necessity of the pulse in given patterns.

 

I think with all these things

true, one is just reading into a text, which is fair, but let’s see it

for what it is. I do not believe

there is any indication that ‘these’ components (pulses) are

CRITICAL to dx these patterns.

 

Personally I find that the things

that are most important in medical texts are described in detail,

this is medicine not psychic readings.

 

Can we just assume that the

author of any book that makes some references to the pulse is a pulse master, therefore

making pulse a critical component? What about the books that

spend pages describing pulse details? Are they also pulse masters? With this logic any author of a book

that even mentions pulses could be ‘understood’ to be a pulse

master making pulse a critical part in dx. Therefore pretty much every TCM book’s

emphasis is somewhat on pulse? I personally think pulse IS NOT AT ALL necessary

to dx. Although,

I think it gives immense amount of information that can make things much

easier.

Finally, We

don’t even know if DR.ZZJ was a real person. There is no record of his life in the government

records, as there should be because he was supposedly a minor official. We only can go on the book itself –

SHL & jG.

So if the book states no detail and no one knows him, How is one to believe

that he was a pulse Master and pulse should so ‘key’? Is this MSU?

 

 

 

 

Jason:<<I

would also question Dr. Z.Z.J.'s expertise in

pulse... >>

 

 

WILL: With all due respect, I will follow the Dr's Yang and their opinions on

this.

 

[:]

 

Are you following DrYang’s

belief without thinking about it, or do you have some evidence that this is

true? I still will question Dr.ZZJ’s expertise

in pulse until I find information (passages in SHL or substantial commentary) or

enough logical evidence to shift my decision. Can you supply me with either of these?

 

-

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/10/01 5:59:39 PM Pacific Standard Time, writes:

 

 

I still will question Dr.ZZJ’s expertise in pulse until I find information (passages in SHL or substantial commentary) or enough logical evidence to shift my decision. Can you supply me with either of these?

 

Have you read the Golden Cabinet? There are discussions about pulses being faster in one position than another. I am curious what people on the list make of this finding. Wang Shuhe has some commentary in the Mai Jing.

 

Remember Wang Shu-he reconstructed the Shang Han Za Bing Lun and created the Mai Jing.

 

Will

[Guest guest]

Teresa - Leon does not address the subject. He states it is not possible, quoting Dr Shen "book wrong". I believe you can find this quote in the book under the classical section.

 

In my opinion, it is critical information for case analysis. Wang Shu-he deals with the issue. That is the only source in English that deals with the subject.

 

 

Will

 

In a message dated 12/11/01 8:32:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, Teresa.bodywork4u writes:

 

 

I have began to read Leon Hammer's Pulse book... in search of answers.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/11/01 11:21:22 AM Pacific Standard Time, zrosenbe writes:

 

 

 

As far as the "book wrong" quote, I would take it with a grain of salt.

One man's opinion, no matter how authoritative does not a classical source obliderate.

 

 

agreed

[Guest guest]

Alon - thank you for your concern... the concommitant febrile components lead me to believe I have atypical measles.

 

In a message dated 12/11/01 11:14:35 AM Pacific Standard Time, alonmarcus writes:

 

 

>>>>Do you think the rate is actually different or the sense of rate. I bet if you measure the rate it is the same but the sense of rate is different\

 

 

This is part of what I am talking about. The ideas are not flushed out position to position by anyone I have come in contact with - save the textual elucidations of Wang Shuhe. It is the difference between rate of arrival and BPM. Dr. Yang Tiande calls a rapid rate of arrival 'urgent', however, he only discusses it globally.

Dr. Hammer uses a term 'pounding' - this would also indicate an increased rate of arrival, however, he discusses it under volume which is not where I would place the discussion. For me, the proper place for discussion regarding rate of arrival would be under wave form. This is because it is an event which takes place within the wave.

There can be variations in the rate of arrival position to position - this could potentially allow one to construct herbal formulas for complex differences in heat-cold throughout the Zang-Fu.

The only standard pulse quality that discusses wave is the Flooding (hong) pulse. It arrives with force and departs without force.

I believe this is evidence of an undeveloped conversation in the current practice of pulse diagnosis. It also highlights an issue which people take into consideration. Alon, Z'ev, Dr. Yang, Dr. Hammer, and Dr. Shen all acknowledge the phenomena - as do most students I come in contact with. Yet, we have not established clear criteria for naming the events and interpreting them.

 

Will

[Guest guest]

think with all these things true, one is just reading into a text, which is fair, but let’s see it for what it is. I do not believe there is any indication that ‘these’ components (pulses) are CRITICAL to dx these patterns.

 

>>>>That is the main point regardless of the text we read. They are only human observations with interpretation. no more or less than we are doing

Alon

 

-

 

Monday, December 10, 2001 7:56 PM

RE: Re: Shao Yang syndrome - Pulse

 

 

 

 

WMorris116 [WMorris116]

Critical components are often simple and powerful. Further details could well obfuscate an eloquent and deeply meaningful message.

 

 

Ok.. Again lets follow the logic here. We have a book that :

1) barely makes references to the pulse,

2) when it does, it mentions only the most basic qualities, and rarely even mentions positions,

3) makes no statements in the text to indicate that the pulse is an important/ essential part of the diagnosis. Even noticing the order of symptoms listed for a presentation, it is usually understood that Dr.ZZJ lists the s/s in order of importance, the pulse may or may not be given, and when it is, it is usually far down the line,

4) I have seen no commentaries that make mention the importance/ necessity of the pulse in given patterns.

 

I think with all these things true, one is just reading into a text, which is fair, but let’s see it for what it is. I do not believe there is any indication that ‘these’ components (pulses) are CRITICAL to dx these patterns.

 

Personally I find that the things that are most important in medical texts are described in detail, this is medicine not psychic readings.

Can we just assume that the author of any book that makes some references to the pulse is a pulse master, therefore making pulse a critical component? What about the books that spend pages describing pulse details? Are they also pulse masters? With this logic any author of a book that even mentions pulses could be ‘understood’ to be a pulse master making pulse a critical part in dx. Therefore pretty much every TCM book’s emphasis is somewhat on pulse? I personally think pulse IS NOT AT ALL necessary to dx. Although, I think it gives immense amount of information that can make things much easier.

Finally, We don’t even know if DR.ZZJ was a real person. There is no record of his life in the government records, as there should be because he was supposedly a minor official. We only can go on the book itself – SHL & jG. So if the book states no detail and no one knows him, How is one to believe that he was a pulse Master and pulse should so ‘key’? Is this MSU?

 

 

Jason:<<I would also question Dr. Z.Z.J.'s expertise in pulse... >>

WILL: With all due respect, I will follow the Dr's Yang and their opinions on this.

 

[:]

 

Are you following DrYang’s belief without thinking about it, or do you have some evidence that this is true? I still will question Dr.ZZJ’s expertise in pulse until I find information (passages in SHL or substantial commentary) or enough logical evidence to shift my decision. Can you supply me with either of these?

 

- Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Teresa - Leon does not address the subject. He states it is not possible, quoting Dr Shen "book wrong". I believe you can find this quote in the book under the classical section. >>>>Do you think the rate is actually different or the sense of rate. I bet if you measure the rate it is the same but the sense of rate is different\

Alon

 

-

WMorris116

Tuesday, December 11, 2001 10:40 AM

Re: Re: Shao Yang syndrome - Pulse

Teresa - Leon does not address the subject. He states it is not possible, quoting Dr Shen "book wrong". I believe you can find this quote in the book under the classical section. In my opinion, it is critical information for case analysis. Wang Shu-he deals with the issue. That is the only source in English that deals with the subject. Will In a message dated 12/11/01 8:32:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, Teresa.bodywork4u writes:

I have began to read Leon Hammer's Pulse book... in search of answers. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

I've observed that the actual overall pulse rate is the same, but that

different positions or wrists have a different sense of speed, depending

on the pulse quality.

 

As far as the " book wrong " quote, I would take it with a grain of salt.

One man's opinion, no matter how authoritative does not a classical

source obliderate.

 

 

On Tuesday, December 11, 2001, at 10:33 AM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

> Teresa - Leon does not address the subject. He states it is not

> possible, quoting Dr Shen " book wrong " . I believe you can find this

> quote in the book under the classical section.

>

> >>>>Do you think the rate is actually different or the sense of rate. I

> bet if you measure the rate it is the same but the sense of rate is

> different\

> Alon

>

> -

> WMorris116

>

> Tuesday, December 11, 2001 10:40 AM

> Re: Re: Shao Yang syndrome - Pulse

>

> Teresa - Leon does not address the subject. He states it is not

> possible, quoting Dr Shen " book wrong " . I believe you can find this

> quote in the book under the classical section.

>

> In my opinion, it is critical information for case analysis. Wang

> Shu-he deals with the issue. That is the only source in English that

> deals with the subject.

>

>

> Will

>

> In a message dated 12/11/01 8:32:20 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> Teresa.bodywork4u writes:

>

>

> I have began to read Leon Hammer's Pulse book... in search of answers.

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>