Guest guest Posted December 10, 2001 Report Share Posted December 10, 2001 , " " <@o...> wrote: Can someone explain > to me, if the above line means what you are quoting, how only 1 key > symptom is needed to dx shaoyang? Are you saying that if one has a dry > throat you can dx shaoyang? I think NOT. There are too many > possibilities for dry throat. what about dizzy vision (vertigo)? I > again, think not. that is an interesting point. Is it also true that the only condition that presents with alternating chills and fever is a shaoyang condition. So if one has this type of fever, then no other sx is necessary to make the dx, because what else could it be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2001 Report Share Posted December 10, 2001 In a message dated 12/10/01 10:19:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, writes: that is an interesting point. Is it also true that the only condition that presents with alternating chills and fever is a shaoyang condition. So if one has this type of fever, then no other sx is necessary to make the dx, because what else could it be? Correct. That's what the text indicates, barring malaria which can also be analyzed this way. Dr Su, Dr Jin, and Dr Yang all contend that this process of alternating chills and fever can extend out on a timeline to anywhere between 3-30 days. As stated previously I have clinical experience which confirms this notion. Bob, I think I am onto my first source on this, when found, I'll post. Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2001 Report Share Posted December 10, 2001 Jason, I appreciate that you are checking in to see if what you think you heard is what I actually said. In most of these instances, as you can see, it is not. What I am saying is this: 'study the text, check it with senior doctors, evaluate, and verify with clinical experience. My opinions are rendered through this methodology.' Will > 1) Ok… Let’s play with this (logic) a bit. you seem to be stating that you are taking the text as face value, I.E.> No, I did not state that. Never have. I am referring to the text. And....I find the argument that since there was text missing, we can make stuff up - weak. <a) IT DOES NOT say specifically that there must be fever and chills to dx shaoyang, therefore there mustn’t be., and> No, it may be. b) It states that there must be only one sign present to dx. shaoyang. No, I did not use the word must. One can make a Shao Yang Dx on the basis of a single symptom on the basis of history. This is a fair.. one could say such things including “DR.ZZJ meant every word NOW written in ‘our’ SHL, nothing more and nothing less.†That is not what I am saying. But, I don’t think anything is as cut and dry as that…>> Agreed <<Let’s con’t: l">ONLY ONE symptom : the 1st three s/s listed for shaoyang are; dry mouth, dizzy vision, and bitter taste in the mouth. Can someone explain to me, if the above line means what you are quoting, how only 1 key symptom is needed to dx shaoyang? >> Based on context -history <<are you saying that if one has a dry throat you can dx shaoyang? >> No I think NOT. There are too many possibilities for dry throat… what about dizzy vision (vertigo)? I again, think not. These are the key symptoms listed for shaoyang. So what does the above line mean? And more importantly what is the essence of the shaoyang? ">Well I believe the essence is the fight and struggle between the body and an evil pathogen. This struggle is occurring in the shaoyang layer of the body. When the body is winning, there is fever. When the body is losing, there are chills. This is precisely why alternating fever and chills makes perfect sense in summing up the essence of this disorder. Can someone offer a better explanation about what shaoyang is about. What other symptom demonstrates this struggle? Dry mouth, hypochondriac pain, even a wiry pulse, none can explain the fight that is present in a shaoyang disorder. So... someone comes in with a dry throat, obviously this one symptom is not enough to diagnose the disorder. What does one need to then diagnose it? IF one needs more symptoms to dx shaoyang, then the above line does not mean what you say (i.e. you need only one symptom)… In conclusion, it makes more sense to say that one needs only one symptom plus A.F. & C. that just one symptom alone (i.e. dry throat). A.F. & C. is the only symptom mentioned that results and represents the essence of the shaoyang – the fight/ struggle in the shaoyang.<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"> Students miss the diagnosis time and time again because of hanging onto the notion of alternating chills and fever as a necessary component of the diagnosis. As Dr. Yang and three other Chinese faculty I have surveyed recently replied 'it is only true in the context of fever.' If there is fever - it must be alternating chills and fever. >I’m just curious, what is your criteria then to diagnose shaoyang without the fever(/chills)? I believe this has been made clear in previous posts. Any one of the major symptoms and an appropriate history. A wiry pulse is a critical portion of the diagnosis. "> you interpreted the text for face value, why now is a wiry pulse a critical portion of the diagnosis? Where in the text does it say this? Or is this a personal pulse bias you hold? This is a bias based on clinical experience and surveys of Docs with 8-12 years of training and 19-30 years experience after that. You are taking the statement out of context. ZZJ admonishes against XCHT when the pulse is floating. I quoted Drs Su and Yang about a deep-thready pulse with any one symptom of Shao Yang category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2001 Report Share Posted December 11, 2001 > > 1 > > that is an interesting point. Is it also true that the only condition > that presents with alternating chills and fever is a shaoyang > condition. So if one has this type of fever, then no other sx is > necessary to make the dx, because what else could it be? > > > Here is a section from Guohui Liu's Warm disease book: Comparisons of alternating fever and chills: Pattern: constraint of lurking summer heat and dampness in the triple burner S/S: fever is more intense than chills, chest distention, restlessness, thirst, greasy and yellow tongue coating; after sweating, there is decrease in temperature, but chest and abdomen remain hot. Pattern: shaoyang S/S: bitter taste, sore throat, dizziness, hypochondriac or costal pain, nausea or vomiting, poor appetite, white tongue coating, wiry pulse Pattern: malaria disorders S/S: shivering; temperature as well as other signs and symptoms disappear after sweating but reappear after fixed time; feels fatigued after attack Pattern: damp-heat in the membrane source S/S: more chills and fever, heavy sensation in body with body aches, and white, thick, greasy, and slippery tongue coating that looks like white powder over the tongue. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 WMorris116 [WMorris116] >I’m just curious, what is your criteria then to diagnose shaoyang without the fever(/chills)? I believe this has been made clear in previous posts. Any one of the major symptoms and an appropriate history. Actually I am a little unclear… Can you please explain a little more.. Let’s take the symptom of dry throat, what is the history one needs to then Dx a shaoyang disorder? Will: A wiry pulse is a critical portion of the diagnosis. Again unclear… Are you saying that you must have a wiry pulse to dx shaoyang? What does critical mean? Finally, What is the symptom, symptom complex, or history (or whatever) that demonstrates the essence of shaoyang disorder (the fight)? –Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 , " " <@o...> wrote: > > Pattern: damp-heat in the membrane source > S/S: more chills and fever, heavy sensation in body with body aches, and > white, thick, greasy, and slippery tongue coating that looks like white > powder over the tongue. > > > - nice find. I would suspect that much alt. chills and fever in chronic illness is actually dampheat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 It would be intrusting to get Bensky's opinion Alon - 1 Wednesday, December 12, 2001 3:28 PM Re: Shao Yang syndrome - Essence , "" <@o...> wrote:> > Pattern: damp-heat in the membrane source> S/S: more chills and fever, heavy sensation in body with body aches, and> white, thick, greasy, and slippery tongue coating that looks like white> powder over the tongue.> > > -nice find. I would suspect that much alt. chills and fever in chronic illness is actually dampheat.ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 In a message dated 12/12/01 3:29:55 PM Pacific Standard Time, writes: nice find. I would suspect that much alt. chills and fever in chronic illness is actually dampheat. and latent heat -Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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