Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 , WMorris116@A... wrote: > In a message dated 12/11/01 11:21:22 AM Pacific Standard Time, > zrosenbe@s... writes: > > > > > > As far as the " book wrong " quote, I would take it with a grain of salt. > > One man's opinion, no matter how authoritative does not a classical > > source obliderate. > > > > agreed Are you guys saying that everything ZZJ said was right? I'll paraphrase Alon. He was a human being, nothing more, nothing less. By definition, he thus made mistakes. I don't know if this was one of them, but matters of medicine should not be taken on faith or reverence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 I'm sorry, but this is unfair. I said to take the comment with a grain of salt and not to jump to conclusions. I resent the tendency to categorize students of the classical texts as religious (faith and reverence); that has happened several times on this list. Albert Einstein was also a human being who made mistakes, but he gave the world lasting work of great meaning and depth. Others have worked hard to follow up on his theories and insights, sometimes succeeding, sometimes not. That is how I feel about the Shang Han Lun and Zhang Ji. If we are going to critique the SHL, we had better be sure we are at a level of competence to do so. Some may succeed in developing or critiquing the material, as in the Warm Disease school(which was a further development and not a refutation), some may not. The SHL as we have it may have errors (pointed out in the commentaries), may be incomplete, so certainly it cannot be 'perfect'. It remains, however, one of the major source texts for herbal prescriptions and originated many important concepts in Chinese medicine that are still mainstream today. I choose to measure any comments or critiques in light of this perspective. On Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 03:25 PM, 1 wrote: > > > Are you guys saying that everything ZZJ said was right? I'll > paraphrase Alon. He was a human being, nothing more, nothing less. By > definition, he thus made mistakes. I don't know if this was one of > them, but matters of medicine should not be taken on faith or > reverence. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 The SHL as we have it may have errors (pointed out in the commentaries), may be incomplete, so certainly it cannot be 'perfect'. It remains, however, one of the major source texts for herbal prescriptions and originated many important concepts in Chinese medicine that are still mainstream today. I choose to measure any comments or critiques in light of this perspective >>>>Z'ev I dont think anybody is disputing this Alon - Wednesday, December 12, 2001 5:08 PM Re: Re: Shao Yang syndrome - Pulse I'm sorry, but this is unfair. I said to take the comment with a grain of salt and not to jump to conclusions. I resent the tendency to categorize students of the classical texts as religious (faith and reverence); that has happened several times on this list. Albert Einstein was also a human being who made mistakes, but he gave the world lasting work of great meaning and depth. Others have worked hard to follow up on his theories and insights, sometimes succeeding, sometimes not. That is how I feel about the Shang Han Lun and Zhang Ji. If we are going to critique the SHL, we had better be sure we are at a level of competence to do so. Some may succeed in developing or critiquing the material, as in the Warm Disease school(which was a further development and not a refutation), some may not.The SHL as we have it may have errors (pointed out in the commentaries), may be incomplete, so certainly it cannot be 'perfect'. It remains, however, one of the major source texts for herbal prescriptions and originated many important concepts in Chinese medicine that are still mainstream today. I choose to measure any comments or critiques in light of this perspective.On Wednesday, December 12, 2001, at 03:25 PM, 1 wrote: Are you guys saying that everything ZZJ said was right? I'llparaphrase Alon. He was a human being, nothing more, nothing less. Bydefinition, he thus made mistakes. I don't know if this was one ofthem, but matters of medicine should not be taken on faith orreverence.Todd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2001 Report Share Posted December 12, 2001 In a message dated 12/12/01 3:27:58 PM Pacific Standard Time, writes: Are you guys saying that everything ZZJ said was right? I'll paraphrase Alon. He was a human being, nothing more, nothing less. By definition, he thus made mistakes. I don't know if this was one of them, but matters of medicine should not be taken on faith or reverence. No...definately not...he made it up in that time....we must each reconstruct this medicine inside ourselves in this time. Hopefully that is done on a solid foundation of classical study. Their needs to be a balance between classicism and romanticism for growth to ensue. <<One man's opinion, no matter how authoritative does not a classical source obliderate. > agreed I am not ensconcing Zhang Ji on a glass pedestal in my inner sanctum - although I have been tempted to do so hoping for some additional grace. I simply agreed with Z'ev that a single man's opinion was insufficient to alter the value of a piece of information for me. Dr. Shen read Nei Jing-Su Wen in and out time and time again. When he made such comment it was from tremendous knowledge and experience. Fine. I was saying that Wang Shuhe's and Zhang Ji's use of the notion regarding varied rates from position to position are of tremendous value, even if some of my respected teachers didn't think so. Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2001 Report Share Posted December 13, 2001 > > ...matters of medicine should not be taken on faith or > reverence. This is an extremely important point. And of far greater concern than people taking a text such as SHL on " faith or reverence " is the fact that so many people are educated to take the work of a handful of modern writers as the gospel truth of the subject, irrespective of faith, reverence, validity, or any actual pertinence to the knowledge base that has long constituted the subject. Until and unless we as a profession take responsibility for establishing proper scholarship that is rooted in knowledge of the Chinese language and access to the literary foundations that have been constructed over centuries, we will all be in the condition that you decry. In China, questions such as those being discussed here, might be referred to personnel from the SHL department at a college or university of TCM. This doesn't mean that " they've got all the answers in China. " It means that modern Chinese scholars and doctors, in their efforts to bring traditional theories and methods to bear on the health care challenges of contemporary people, realized that they needed to familiarize themselves with the accumulated knowledge of the subject. They simply have a great advantage over non-Chinese in having a head start on linguistic and literary access. And of course there is the benefit of living in the cultural matrix that has evolved from the one in which traditional medicine first emerged. But they have no monopoly on the subject and are, to the contrary, working hard to make it available to foreigners as well as to their country folk. Foreigners... that's us...have to work just as hard, if not harder to bring this transmission off successfully. I believe strongly that this work must begin with acquiring a basic and functional familiarity with the language. For those who want to read more about this, the editorial in the forthcoming issue of CAOM focuses on the language requirement. I am campaigning on this point. It's a grass roots campaign in which I'd like to enlist as many people as possible. I would like to see students demanding to study Chinese medical language, and I'd like to see teachers demanding it of themselves and each other as well as of their students. I'd like to see the schools individually and as a group taking effective measures to stimulate, foster, and support the scholarship that is required to create access to the Chinese medical literature, modern and ancient, that remains such an important feature of Chinese medicine. It's a campagin that focuses on caring about the quality of our knowledge and of our clinical skills, recognizing that the latter cannot be reasonably expected to continue to emerge without a healthy condition of the former. The usual response I get when I carry on like this is being told, in more or less these words to " get real. " But this is about as real as I can get. Matters of medicine should not be taken on faith or reverence and until and unless we change the current conditions under which we educate and certify practitioners of the subject, that's pretty much what we are doing. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2001 Report Share Posted December 13, 2001 Hi All, --- dragon90405 <yulong wrote: > I believe strongly that this > work must begin with acquiring a basic > and functional familiarity with the language. My skill at reading Chinese is still quite pathetic, but I can honestly say that reading about Chinese medicine in English is like in the 1950's when we had black and white TVs, and reading even one sentence in Chinese is like finally getting a color TV set. It is work, but it is soooo worth the effort. Lorraine ===== Lorraine Wilcox L.Ac. Check out Shopping and Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at or bid at http://auctions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2001 Report Share Posted December 13, 2001 I agree wholeheartedly. On Thursday, December 13, 2001, at 12:53 PM, Lorraine Wilcox L.Ac. wrote: > Hi All, > > --- dragon90405 <yulong wrote: > > I believe strongly that this > > work must begin with acquiring a basic > > and functional familiarity with the language. > > My skill at reading Chinese is still quite pathetic, > but I can honestly say that reading about Chinese > medicine in English is like in the 1950's when we had > black and white TVs, and reading even one sentence in > Chinese is like finally getting a color TV set. > > It is work, but it is soooo worth the effort. > > Lorraine > > ===== > Lorraine Wilcox L.Ac. > > > > Check out Shopping and Auctions for all of > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at > or bid at http://auctions. > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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