Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 Alon, I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here. Your position seems to be that you would have done more if you had the time. But the way you spent your time was dictated by the priorities set by the institution you attended. If they had made a required track of Chinese language development, you would have to have made the time for it.>>>Well it left me time to study herbs, formulas, spend more time with patients, follow as many Drs (both in and out of school), and get as much information on their experience as I could, do follow-ups on every patient I have seen etc. If I was to study Chinese beyond what I did (which was limited to, basic written herbs, TCM diagnosis and treatment characters). I would not have had as much time to do what I did. Again, I think it was better use of my time than knowing more Chinese Alon - Rory Kerr Monday, December 17, 2001 8:44 AM Re: Re: Chinese language requirements At 1:09 PM -0600 12/16/01, Alon Marcus wrote:>Alon, what do you think would happen if a widespread>understanding of Chinese medical language, thought,>literature and theory were to flourish in the States> >>>>>I am not saying it is a bad thing but as I see it people have >a limited amount of time and they need to prioritize.--Alon, I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here. Your position seems to be that you would have done more if you had the time. But the way you spent your time was dictated by the priorities set by the institution you attended. If they had made a required track of Chinese language development, you would have to have made the time for it.Surely students don't get to decide the content of their education, and if content is required it's up to them to make it a priority. The schools don't require it, and therefore students take the path of least resistance, which is fair enough; after all they are not in a position to know what is important, and have to assume that the colleges have decided that. The colleges on the other hand are making their priorities based, in part, not on what is best educationally, but rather what will maximize their profit. I emphasize _in part_, because I'm sure they have educational values in mind as well. However, in a situation where they compete for students, and students will take the path of least resistance, their choice not to include language is in their self interest as profit driven enterprises.Bensky's school is commendable for operating on a different principle, and their faculty will have the pleasure of teaching a group of students who are probably of a higher caliber than is general.Rory-- Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 In a message dated 12/17/01 4:57:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, alonmarcus writes: Clinical Traditional : Ortho- pedic Volume. : Chinese Medical Science, • Chinese Orthopedics and Traumatology. Guang-shi, China: Scientific and Technological Publisher, • Spinal Biomechanical Changes and Related Diseases. China Scientific >>>>>Are these in Chinese? yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 Bob – I must take exception to your thoughtful, long and detailed post when it comes to Emperor’s College. To quote the Accreditation commission “The Chinese faculty members are among the most qualified and experienced practitioners anywhere. Doctoral degrees and post-doctoral fellowships are abundant, creating a strong foundation for the eventual inclusion of a doctoral program at the college.” No faculty member has less than five years experience with the exception of a physical therapist/acupuncturist of 10 years experience in physical therapy and two years as an acupuncturist teaching the acu-anatomy course. Our pay scale is between $30-$45 an hour depending on background. This comes nowhere near compensating these individuals for what they bring to the table. However, at $120 a unit, faculty salaries amount to more than half the annual revenue. I would love to pay these people more – but we would have to close. Average Master’s degree program fees are about $565 a unit nationwide. If we begin to approximate the subsidy and fee structures of the conventional educational systems, then the fee scales you suggest for faculty become plausible. Will PS here is a brief summary of some of our faculty members who currently serve the Master’s program. They are each qualified for doctoral level training. Some of them are qualified for teaching in the highest academic posts in China. John Chen, Pharm.D., L.Ac. Pharm.D., USC School of Pharmacy PhD, OMD, South Baylor University BA, California State University, Fullerton Dr. Chen is currently an assistant professor in the University of Southern California School of Pharmacy. In addition, he is President and Founder of Lotus Herbs. Hua Gu, Ph.D., L.Ac. Ph.D., China Academy of TCM, Beijing, China Orthopedic and Traumatology specialist. Medicine Doctorate from Guangchou Medical College, China. Dr. Gu is the only person in the U.S. to hold a Ph.D. in TCM Orthopedics and is the Founder of the American Acupuncture Academy. Recent publications include: • Clinical Traditional : Ortho- pedic Volume. : Chinese Medical Science, • Chinese Orthopedics and Traumatology. Guang-shi, China: Scientific and Technological Publisher, • Spinal Biomechanical Changes and Related Diseases. China Scientific John Gu, L.Ac. Shanghai University of TCM, China Neiqiang Gu is from the famous Gu family lineage of Shanghai. His father and grandfather practiced the dermatological specialty which includes the surgical procedures of TCM. The Gu family lineage has many secret prescriptions, especially in the arena of external applications. He has been officially entitled and registered Asian academic inheritor of the Most Distinguished Acupuncturists and Traditional Chinese Specialists, the highest rank for Traditional Chinese Medical Doctors in the Peoples Republic of China. With forty years of experience, Dr. Gu has published more than thirty research papers and books including: " Differentiation and Treatment of Psoriasis " , " Differentiation and Treatment of Eczema " , " Studies of 100 Cases on Warts " , " Six Methods to Treat Vitiligo by Boha Gu " , and " Clinical Experiences from Xiaoyan Gu " . Jerome Jiang, Ph.D., Chinese Classics, East China Normal University, China Professor Jiang has taught and conducted research at universities in China, Japan and the United States. He has taught many courses in Traditional and Chinese languages and philosophies, including the “Yellow Emperor’s Classic.” Recent publications include: • Annotation and Analysis on the Book of Odes, China Publishing House, Oct. 1991 • The Variorum of the Analects of Confu- cius (textual criticism and punctuation) China Publishing House (Zhong Hua Shu Ju), Oct. 1990 • Thirty Treatises on Taoist Literature, Shanghai Social Science Publishing House, Sep. 1993 • Selected Translation of The Book of Odes, Ba Shu Publishing House, Jun. 1990 • The Modern Annotation and Translation of the Book of Odes, Yue Lu Publishing House, 1994 • I Ching, Lao Tse and the Yin Yang Theory, The Fifth International Congress of , Jun. 1990 Xiu-Ling Ma, Ph.D., L.Ac. Ph.D., Beijing University of TCM, Beijing, China MS, Beijing University of TCM, Beijing, China MD, Beijing University of TCM, Beijing, China Dr. Ma is one of the most highly educated professionals in the field of Traditional (TCM), both in China and in the United States. She graduated first in her class from the prestigious Beijing University of TCM and completed twelve full years of education in integrated TCM and Western Medicine. As part of her education, Dr. Ma studied directly under two distinguished TCM Masters in China-Dr. Jia-San Yang and Dr. Zi-Fu Chen, both of whom accept only one or two students each year. Before coming to Los Angeles in 1995, Dr. Ma was a professor, physician and researcher at the Beijing University of TCM. She also conducted clinical research as to the efficacy of herbs and acupuncture in treating various illnesses, such as stroke, asthma, diabetes, the common cold and many others. Dr. Ma is authorized to treat patients at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center and at the Daniel Freeman Marina Hospital. She is also the Acupuncture Program Director of a research project on acupuncture for stroke patients, a project coordinated by the USC School of Medicine, Daniel Freeman Hospital Marina and Emperor's College. Dr. Ma also maintains a private practice at the Acu-Herbal Medical Arts. Dr Ma has published over a dozen books and articles on TCM subjects. Recent publications include: • Pocket Manual of Practical Acupuncture. Tianjin, China: Tianjin Scientech Publishing House, 1995. • Practical Acupuncture Treatment for Diseases of the Nervous System. China Traditional Publishing House, 1994. • Fifteen Kinds of Medical Skills. China Traditional Publishing House, 1996. • The Selected Works for Health Preservation of Ancient China. Beijing Broadcast College Publishing House, 1992. • Progress of Clinical and Experimental Studies on Acupuncture Treatment of Cerebrovascular Diseases. • Experience of Professor Jia-san Yang in Epilepsy Treatment with Acupuncture. Education of Traditional . 1994;3:46. Zhou Yi Qiu, L.Ac. Postdoctoral fellow in Cardiology, Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, TX Cardiology Training, Sun Yat Sen (Guangzhou) Medical University, Guangzhou, China Dr. Qiu is a unique addition to Emperor’s College due to his background in TCM Cardiology. Recent publications include: • Short-term Effect of Treating Congestive Heart Failure with Ilexanin A, Collected papers of the Second Symposium of Cardiovas- cular Disease of Guangdong Provincial Heart Association of integrated Traditional Chinese Medicine and Western Medicine.1992;78. • Progress of Traditional studies on essential hypertension. Collected papers of the first international conference of Traditional . 1993;39. Tiande Yang, Ph.D., L.Ac. Ph.D., Beijing University of TCM, Beijing, China Dr. Yang has been officially entitled and registered Asian academic inheritor of the Most Distinguished Acupuncturists and Traditional Chinese Specialists, the highest rank for Traditional Chinese Medical Doctors in the Peoples Republic of China. To preserve the heritage of , 500 of the most respected Chinese Doctors selected two pupils each to pass on their time-honored medical knowledge and skills. Dr. Yang is one of the 1,000 elects and started his apprenticeship under his father at age 16. As an Assistant Professor of Traditional Chinese Medicine at the Beijing College of Traditional since 1988, he was the physician in charge of the Department of Acupuncture and Moxibustion at the Beijing Dongzhimen Hospital. Yun Kyoung Yim, Ph.D., L.Ac. Ph.D., Kyung Hee University, Seoul, South Korea Dr. Yim has counseled and assisted Neuro-Acupuncture research at University of California, Irvine’s Medical Department. She has conducted extensive research and theses on acupuncture, moxabustion, and heart disease. Dr. Yim is currently a supervisor and instructor at Emperor’s College and Clinic. << 1. Hire professorial level teachers to teach Masters and Doctoral level programs, not the equivalent of teaching assistants (TAs). By this I mean: A) Do national and international job searches for qualified professors who 1) read at least one Far East Asian language, 2) have at least 10 years clinical experience in Chinese medicine, 3) are fluent English speakers, and 4) have some training in Western educational philosophy, techniques, and academic standards. Since there is, in my experience, a dearth of such qualified people, this means that there should be less programs. I believe that it would be better to turn out fewer but better trained practitioners than more, lesser trained practitioners (at least when it comes to the internal administration of Chinese medicinals, as opposed to acupuncture). I believe Dan Bensky's school is on the right tract in terms of size vis a vis quality control. 2. Pay those professors a professorial salary of not less than $70K per annum. Right now and, again, in my experience, schools pay somewhere between $25-30 per hour, with most teachers only working part time at teaching and few schools paying for class prep time. Far too often, our teachers teach because they are not busy in their own clinics or they need a employer-secured green card. Too many of our teachers are recent graduates with less than 5 years clinical experience or recent immigrants who A) cannot communicate a doctoral level of technical material in doctoral level English and B) have yet to really understand the requirements of doing Chinese medicine with our patient population. The first requirement of an effective professional teacher is not necessarily being the wrold's greatest expert in their field but being an effective communicator to the target audience. This means that persons who may be crackerjack practitioners or even well known teachers in China may not be particularly effective teachers in the U.S. 3. Require professors to conduct research, translate, and/or publish just like professors in bona fide doctoral programs would be expected in regular academe. 4. Require more stringent entrance levels. If we're are truly going for a doctoral level program, then how come we don't require the GRE? I believe a B.A. or B.S. should be absolutely mandatory, even of the current " M.S. " level students. The older I get, the more I believe that there's just no substitute for a good all-around, general education. Studying logic may, seemingly, have nothing to do with the clinical practice of Chinese medicine, but it teaches one to think, and thinking most certainly does have to do with the clinical practice of Chinese medicine. Likewise, studying anthropology may seem irrelevant, but, from my personal experience, studying some medical anthropology has helped me immensely in getting clear about certain aspects of Chinese medical psychiatry. >> Attachment: vcard [not shown] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 Clinical Traditional : Ortho- pedic Volume. : Chinese Medical Science,• Chinese Orthopedics and Traumatology. Guang-shi, China: Scientific and Technological Publisher,• Spinal Biomechanical Changes and Related Diseases. China Scientific>>>>>Are these in Chinese? - Will Monday, December 17, 2001 3:45 PM Re: Chinese language requirements Bob –I must take exception to your thoughtful, long and detailed post when itcomes to Emperor’s College.To quote the Accreditation commission “The Chinese faculty members areamong the most qualified and experienced practitioners anywhere.Doctoral degrees and post-doctoral fellowships are abundant, creating astrong foundation for the eventual inclusion of a doctoral program atthe college.” No faculty member has less than five years experience withthe exception of a physical therapist/acupuncturist of 10 yearsexperience in physical therapy and two years as an acupuncturistteaching the acu-anatomy course.Our pay scale is between $30-$45 an hour depending on background. Thiscomes nowhere near compensating these individuals for what they bring tothe table. However, at $120 a unit, faculty salaries amount to more thanhalf the annual revenue. I would love to pay these people more – but wewould have to close. Average Master’s degree program fees are about $565a unit nationwide. If we begin to approximate the subsidy and feestructures of the conventional educational systems, then the fee scalesyou suggest for faculty become plausible.WillPS here is a brief summary of some of our faculty members who currentlyserve the Master’s program. They are each qualified for doctoral leveltraining. Some of them are qualified for teaching in the highestacademic posts in China.John Chen, Pharm.D., L.Ac.Pharm.D., USC School of PharmacyPhD, OMD, South Baylor UniversityBA, California State University, FullertonDr. Chen is currently an assistant professor in the University ofSouthern California School of Pharmacy. In addition, he is President andFounder of Lotus Herbs.Hua Gu, Ph.D., L.Ac.Ph.D., China Academy of TCM, Beijing, China Orthopedic and Traumatologyspecialist. Medicine Doctorate from Guangchou Medical College, China.Dr. Gu is the only person in the U.S. to hold a Ph.D. in TCM Orthopedicsand is the Founder of the American Acupuncture Academy. Recentpublications include:• Clinical Traditional : Ortho- pedic Volume. : Chinese Medical Science,• Chinese Orthopedics and Traumatology. Guang-shi, China: Scientific and Technological Publisher,• Spinal Biomechanical Changes and Related Diseases. China ScientificJohn Gu, L.Ac.Shanghai University of TCM, ChinaNeiqiang Gu is from the famous Gu family lineage of Shanghai. His fatherand grandfather practiced the dermatological specialty which includesthe surgical procedures of TCM. The Gu family lineage has many secretprescriptions, especially in the arena of external applications. He hasbeen officially entitled and registered Asian academic inheritor of theMost Distinguished Acupuncturists and Traditional Chinese Specialists,the highest rank for Traditional Chinese Medical Doctors in the PeoplesRepublic of China. With forty years of experience, Dr. Gu has publishedmore than thirty research papers and books including: "Differentiationand Treatment of Psoriasis", "Differentiation and Treatment of Eczema","Studies of 100 Cases on Warts", "Six Methods to Treat Vitiligo by BohaGu", and "Clinical Experiences from Xiaoyan Gu".Jerome Jiang, Ph.D., Chinese Classics, East ChinaNormal University, ChinaProfessor Jiang has taught and conducted research at universities inChina, Japan and the United States. He has taught many courses inTraditional and Chinese languages and philosophies,including the “Yellow Emperor’s Classic.” Recent publications include:• Annotation and Analysis on the Book of Odes, China Publishing House, Oct. 1991• The Variorum of the Analects of Confu- cius (textual criticism and punctuation) China Publishing House (Zhong Hua Shu Ju), Oct. 1990• Thirty Treatises on Taoist Literature, Shanghai Social Science Publishing House, Sep. 1993• Selected Translation of The Book of Odes, Ba Shu Publishing House, Jun. 1990• The Modern Annotation and Translation of the Book of Odes, Yue Lu Publishing House, 1994• I Ching, Lao Tse and the Yin Yang Theory, The Fifth International Congress of , Jun. 1990Xiu-Ling Ma, Ph.D., L.Ac.Ph.D., Beijing University of TCM, Beijing, ChinaMS, Beijing University of TCM, Beijing, ChinaMD, Beijing University of TCM, Beijing, ChinaDr. Ma is one of the most highly educated professionals in the field ofTraditional (TCM), both in China and in the UnitedStates. She graduated first in her class from the prestigious BeijingUniversity of TCM and completed twelve full years of education inintegrated TCM and Western Medicine. As part of her education, Dr. Mastudied directly under two distinguished TCM Masters in China-Dr.Jia-San Yang and Dr. Zi-Fu Chen, both of whom accept only one or twostudents each year. Before coming to Los Angeles in 1995, Dr. Ma was aprofessor, physician and researcher at the Beijing University of TCM.She also conducted clinical research as to the efficacy of herbs andacupuncture in treating various illnesses, such as stroke, asthma,diabetes, the common cold and many others. Dr. Ma is authorized totreat patients at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center and at the Daniel FreemanMarina Hospital. She is also the Acupuncture Program Director of aresearch project on acupuncture for stroke patients, a projectcoordinated by the USC School of Medicine, Daniel Freeman HospitalMarina and Emperor's College. Dr. Ma also maintains a private practiceat the Acu-Herbal Medical Arts. Dr Ma has published over a dozen booksand articles on TCM subjects. Recent publications include:• Pocket Manual of Practical Acupuncture. Tianjin, China: Tianjin Scientech Publishing House, 1995.• Practical Acupuncture Treatment for Diseases of the Nervous System. China Traditional Publishing House, 1994.• Fifteen Kinds of Medical Skills. China Traditional Publishing House, 1996.• The Selected Works for Health Preservation of Ancient China. Beijing Broadcast College Publishing House, 1992.• Progress of Clinical and Experimental Studies on Acupuncture Treatment of Cerebrovascular Diseases.• Experience of Professor Jia-san Yang in Epilepsy Treatment with Acupuncture. Education of Traditional . 1994;3:46.Zhou Yi Qiu, L.Ac.Postdoctoral fellow in Cardiology,Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, TXCardiology Training, Sun Yat Sen (Guangzhou) Medical University,Guangzhou, ChinaDr. Qiu is a unique addition to Emperor’s College due to his backgroundin TCM Cardiology. Recent publications include:• Short-term Effect of Treating Congestive Heart Failure with Ilexanin A, Collected papers of the Second Symposium of Cardiovas- cular Disease of Guangdong Provincial Heart Association of integrated Traditional Chinese Medicine and Western Medicine.1992;78.• Progress of Traditional studies on essential hypertension. Collected papers of the first international conference of Traditional . 1993;39.Tiande Yang, Ph.D., L.Ac.Ph.D., Beijing University of TCM, Beijing, ChinaDr. Yang has been officially entitled and registered Asian academicinheritor of the Most Distinguished Acupuncturists and TraditionalChinese Specialists, the highest rank for Traditional Chinese MedicalDoctors in the Peoples Republic of China. To preserve the heritage of, 500 of the most respected Chinese Doctors selected twopupils each to pass on their time-honored medical knowledge and skills.Dr. Yang is one of the 1,000 elects and started his apprenticeship underhis father at age 16. As an Assistant Professor of Traditional ChineseMedicine at the Beijing College of Traditional since1988, he was the physician in charge of the Department of Acupunctureand Moxibustion at the Beijing Dongzhimen Hospital.Yun Kyoung Yim, Ph.D., L.Ac.Ph.D., Kyung Hee University, Seoul, South KoreaDr. Yim has counseled and assisted Neuro-Acupuncture research atUniversity of California, Irvine’s Medical Department. She hasconducted extensive research and theses on acupuncture, moxabustion, andheart disease. Dr. Yim is currently a supervisor and instructor atEmperor’s College and Clinic.<<1. Hire professorial level teachers to teach Masters and Doctorallevel programs, not the equivalent of teaching assistants (TAs).By this I mean: A) Do national and international job searches forqualified professors who 1) read at least one Far East Asian language,2) have at least 10 years clinical experience in Chinese medicine, 3)are fluent English speakers, and 4) have some training in Westerneducational philosophy, techniques, and academic standards.Since there is, in my experience, a dearth of such qualified people,this means that there should be less programs. I believe that it wouldbe better to turn out fewer but better trained practitioners thanmore, lesser trained practitioners (at least when it comes to theinternal administration of Chinese medicinals, as opposed toacupuncture). I believe Dan Bensky's school is on the right tract interms of size vis a vis quality control.2. Pay those professors a professorial salary of not less than $70Kper annum.Right now and, again, in my experience, schools pay somewhere between$25-30 per hour, with most teachers only working part time at teachingand few schools paying for class prep time. Far too often, ourteachers teach because they are not busy in their own clinics or theyneed a employer-secured green card. Too many of our teachers arerecent graduates with less than 5 years clinical experience or recentimmigrants who A) cannot communicate a doctoral level of technicalmaterial in doctoral level English and B) have yet to reallyunderstand the requirements of doing Chinese medicine with our patientpopulation. The first requirement of an effective professional teacheris not necessarily being the wrold's greatest expert in their fieldbut being an effective communicator to the target audience. This meansthat persons who may be crackerjack practitioners or even well knownteachers in China may not be particularly effective teachers in theU.S.3. Require professors to conduct research, translate, and/or publishjust like professors in bona fide doctoral programs would be expectedin regular academe.4. Require more stringent entrance levels. If we're are truly goingfor a doctoral level program, then how come we don't require the GRE?I believe a B.A. or B.S. should be absolutely mandatory, even of thecurrent "M.S." level students. The older I get, the more I believethat there's just no substitute for a good all-around, generaleducation. Studying logic may, seemingly, have nothing to do with theclinical practice of Chinese medicine, but it teaches one to think,and thinking most certainly does have to do with the clinical practiceof Chinese medicine. Likewise, studying anthropology may seemirrelevant, but, from my personal experience, studying some medicalanthropology has helped me immensely in getting clear about certainaspects of Chinese medical psychiatry. >>Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 Progress of Traditional studies on essential hypertension. Collected papers of the first international conference of Traditional . 1993;39.>>>Do you have a copy of this - Will Monday, December 17, 2001 3:45 PM Re: Chinese language requirements Bob –I must take exception to your thoughtful, long and detailed post when itcomes to Emperor’s College.To quote the Accreditation commission “The Chinese faculty members areamong the most qualified and experienced practitioners anywhere.Doctoral degrees and post-doctoral fellowships are abundant, creating astrong foundation for the eventual inclusion of a doctoral program atthe college.” No faculty member has less than five years experience withthe exception of a physical therapist/acupuncturist of 10 yearsexperience in physical therapy and two years as an acupuncturistteaching the acu-anatomy course.Our pay scale is between $30-$45 an hour depending on background. Thiscomes nowhere near compensating these individuals for what they bring tothe table. However, at $120 a unit, faculty salaries amount to more thanhalf the annual revenue. I would love to pay these people more – but wewould have to close. Average Master’s degree program fees are about $565a unit nationwide. If we begin to approximate the subsidy and feestructures of the conventional educational systems, then the fee scalesyou suggest for faculty become plausible.WillPS here is a brief summary of some of our faculty members who currentlyserve the Master’s program. They are each qualified for doctoral leveltraining. Some of them are qualified for teaching in the highestacademic posts in China.John Chen, Pharm.D., L.Ac.Pharm.D., USC School of PharmacyPhD, OMD, South Baylor UniversityBA, California State University, FullertonDr. Chen is currently an assistant professor in the University ofSouthern California School of Pharmacy. In addition, he is President andFounder of Lotus Herbs.Hua Gu, Ph.D., L.Ac.Ph.D., China Academy of TCM, Beijing, China Orthopedic and Traumatologyspecialist. Medicine Doctorate from Guangchou Medical College, China.Dr. Gu is the only person in the U.S. to hold a Ph.D. in TCM Orthopedicsand is the Founder of the American Acupuncture Academy. Recentpublications include:• Clinical Traditional : Ortho- pedic Volume. : Chinese Medical Science,• Chinese Orthopedics and Traumatology. Guang-shi, China: Scientific and Technological Publisher,• Spinal Biomechanical Changes and Related Diseases. China ScientificJohn Gu, L.Ac.Shanghai University of TCM, ChinaNeiqiang Gu is from the famous Gu family lineage of Shanghai. His fatherand grandfather practiced the dermatological specialty which includesthe surgical procedures of TCM. The Gu family lineage has many secretprescriptions, especially in the arena of external applications. He hasbeen officially entitled and registered Asian academic inheritor of theMost Distinguished Acupuncturists and Traditional Chinese Specialists,the highest rank for Traditional Chinese Medical Doctors in the PeoplesRepublic of China. With forty years of experience, Dr. Gu has publishedmore than thirty research papers and books including: "Differentiationand Treatment of Psoriasis", "Differentiation and Treatment of Eczema","Studies of 100 Cases on Warts", "Six Methods to Treat Vitiligo by BohaGu", and "Clinical Experiences from Xiaoyan Gu".Jerome Jiang, Ph.D., Chinese Classics, East ChinaNormal University, ChinaProfessor Jiang has taught and conducted research at universities inChina, Japan and the United States. He has taught many courses inTraditional and Chinese languages and philosophies,including the “Yellow Emperor’s Classic.” Recent publications include:• Annotation and Analysis on the Book of Odes, China Publishing House, Oct. 1991• The Variorum of the Analects of Confu- cius (textual criticism and punctuation) China Publishing House (Zhong Hua Shu Ju), Oct. 1990• Thirty Treatises on Taoist Literature, Shanghai Social Science Publishing House, Sep. 1993• Selected Translation of The Book of Odes, Ba Shu Publishing House, Jun. 1990• The Modern Annotation and Translation of the Book of Odes, Yue Lu Publishing House, 1994• I Ching, Lao Tse and the Yin Yang Theory, The Fifth International Congress of , Jun. 1990Xiu-Ling Ma, Ph.D., L.Ac.Ph.D., Beijing University of TCM, Beijing, ChinaMS, Beijing University of TCM, Beijing, ChinaMD, Beijing University of TCM, Beijing, ChinaDr. Ma is one of the most highly educated professionals in the field ofTraditional (TCM), both in China and in the UnitedStates. She graduated first in her class from the prestigious BeijingUniversity of TCM and completed twelve full years of education inintegrated TCM and Western Medicine. As part of her education, Dr. Mastudied directly under two distinguished TCM Masters in China-Dr.Jia-San Yang and Dr. Zi-Fu Chen, both of whom accept only one or twostudents each year. Before coming to Los Angeles in 1995, Dr. Ma was aprofessor, physician and researcher at the Beijing University of TCM.She also conducted clinical research as to the efficacy of herbs andacupuncture in treating various illnesses, such as stroke, asthma,diabetes, the common cold and many others. Dr. Ma is authorized totreat patients at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center and at the Daniel FreemanMarina Hospital. She is also the Acupuncture Program Director of aresearch project on acupuncture for stroke patients, a projectcoordinated by the USC School of Medicine, Daniel Freeman HospitalMarina and Emperor's College. Dr. Ma also maintains a private practiceat the Acu-Herbal Medical Arts. Dr Ma has published over a dozen booksand articles on TCM subjects. Recent publications include:• Pocket Manual of Practical Acupuncture. Tianjin, China: Tianjin Scientech Publishing House, 1995.• Practical Acupuncture Treatment for Diseases of the Nervous System. China Traditional Publishing House, 1994.• Fifteen Kinds of Medical Skills. China Traditional Publishing House, 1996.• The Selected Works for Health Preservation of Ancient China. Beijing Broadcast College Publishing House, 1992.• Progress of Clinical and Experimental Studies on Acupuncture Treatment of Cerebrovascular Diseases.• Experience of Professor Jia-san Yang in Epilepsy Treatment with Acupuncture. Education of Traditional . 1994;3:46.Zhou Yi Qiu, L.Ac.Postdoctoral fellow in Cardiology,Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, TXCardiology Training, Sun Yat Sen (Guangzhou) Medical University,Guangzhou, ChinaDr. Qiu is a unique addition to Emperor’s College due to his backgroundin TCM Cardiology. Recent publications include:• Short-term Effect of Treating Congestive Heart Failure with Ilexanin A, Collected papers of the Second Symposium of Cardiovas- cular Disease of Guangdong Provincial Heart Association of integrated Traditional Chinese Medicine and Western Medicine.1992;78.• Progress of Traditional studies on essential hypertension. Collected papers of the first international conference of Traditional . 1993;39.Tiande Yang, Ph.D., L.Ac.Ph.D., Beijing University of TCM, Beijing, ChinaDr. Yang has been officially entitled and registered Asian academicinheritor of the Most Distinguished Acupuncturists and TraditionalChinese Specialists, the highest rank for Traditional Chinese MedicalDoctors in the Peoples Republic of China. To preserve the heritage of, 500 of the most respected Chinese Doctors selected twopupils each to pass on their time-honored medical knowledge and skills.Dr. Yang is one of the 1,000 elects and started his apprenticeship underhis father at age 16. As an Assistant Professor of Traditional ChineseMedicine at the Beijing College of Traditional since1988, he was the physician in charge of the Department of Acupunctureand Moxibustion at the Beijing Dongzhimen Hospital.Yun Kyoung Yim, Ph.D., L.Ac.Ph.D., Kyung Hee University, Seoul, South KoreaDr. Yim has counseled and assisted Neuro-Acupuncture research atUniversity of California, Irvine’s Medical Department. She hasconducted extensive research and theses on acupuncture, moxabustion, andheart disease. Dr. Yim is currently a supervisor and instructor atEmperor’s College and Clinic.<<1. Hire professorial level teachers to teach Masters and Doctorallevel programs, not the equivalent of teaching assistants (TAs).By this I mean: A) Do national and international job searches forqualified professors who 1) read at least one Far East Asian language,2) have at least 10 years clinical experience in Chinese medicine, 3)are fluent English speakers, and 4) have some training in Westerneducational philosophy, techniques, and academic standards.Since there is, in my experience, a dearth of such qualified people,this means that there should be less programs. I believe that it wouldbe better to turn out fewer but better trained practitioners thanmore, lesser trained practitioners (at least when it comes to theinternal administration of Chinese medicinals, as opposed toacupuncture). I believe Dan Bensky's school is on the right tract interms of size vis a vis quality control.2. Pay those professors a professorial salary of not less than $70Kper annum.Right now and, again, in my experience, schools pay somewhere between$25-30 per hour, with most teachers only working part time at teachingand few schools paying for class prep time. Far too often, ourteachers teach because they are not busy in their own clinics or theyneed a employer-secured green card. Too many of our teachers arerecent graduates with less than 5 years clinical experience or recentimmigrants who A) cannot communicate a doctoral level of technicalmaterial in doctoral level English and B) have yet to reallyunderstand the requirements of doing Chinese medicine with our patientpopulation. The first requirement of an effective professional teacheris not necessarily being the wrold's greatest expert in their fieldbut being an effective communicator to the target audience. This meansthat persons who may be crackerjack practitioners or even well knownteachers in China may not be particularly effective teachers in theU.S.3. Require professors to conduct research, translate, and/or publishjust like professors in bona fide doctoral programs would be expectedin regular academe.4. Require more stringent entrance levels. If we're are truly goingfor a doctoral level program, then how come we don't require the GRE?I believe a B.A. or B.S. should be absolutely mandatory, even of thecurrent "M.S." level students. The older I get, the more I believethat there's just no substitute for a good all-around, generaleducation. Studying logic may, seemingly, have nothing to do with theclinical practice of Chinese medicine, but it teaches one to think,and thinking most certainly does have to do with the clinical practiceof Chinese medicine. Likewise, studying anthropology may seemirrelevant, but, from my personal experience, studying some medicalanthropology has helped me immensely in getting clear about certainaspects of Chinese medical psychiatry. >>Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 , Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote: I believe most > of the schools are operated to maximize profit, and therefore the > idea of selecting out students in this way is a non starter, and is > the reason Chinese language is unlikely to become a prerequisite for, > or a feature of, their programs. Rory is quite right about this. I predict forlornly that very few schools will require Chinese for their doctoral programs for the same reason. And those that now intend to will be forced to backpedal due to lack of enrollment. Bob Flaws has pointed out that students and px do not even want to read translations of classics, much less the classics themselves. Perhaps the only solution will be the one that Flaws has floated. When mainstream universities take over the education in TCM and vigorously recruit students who already have strong academic credentials and leanings. Just pause a moment to consider students who work 40 hours per week, are married with children and planning a midlife career change. Perhaps time would be better spent investigating Flaws proposal more seriously. I really see the current system as a deadend in this area. My main interest personally is access to more translated material. To paraphrase Dan Bensky, knowing Chinese is not requisite for successful practice and conversely, knowing Chinese does not even ensure that one is any good at all at practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 Lorraine, I'm having trouble joining the translation group. Can you kindly me? I believe it's an option available to you as the moderator/owner of the list. Please use <yulong Many thanks, Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 I really see the current system as a deadend in this area. >>>With this I totally agree. If we were to be part of mainstream education than the whole field will look different and quality of the education can be greatly improved Alon - 1 Monday, December 17, 2001 8:10 PM Re: Chinese language requirements , Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote:I believe most > of the schools are operated to maximize profit, and therefore the > idea of selecting out students in this way is a non starter, and is > the reason Chinese language is unlikely to become a prerequisite for, > or a feature of, their programs. Rory is quite right about this. I predict forlornly that very few schools will require Chinese for their doctoral programs for the same reason. And those that now intend to will be forced to backpedal due to lack of enrollment. Bob Flaws has pointed out that students and px do not even want to read translations of classics, much less the classics themselves. Perhaps the only solution will be the one that Flaws has floated. When mainstream universities take over the education in TCM and vigorously recruit students who already have strong academic credentials and leanings. Just pause a moment to consider students who work 40 hours per week, are married with children and planning a midlife career change. Perhaps time would be better spent investigating Flaws proposal more seriously. I really see the current system as a deadend in this area. My main interest personally is access to more translated material. To paraphrase Dan Bensky, knowing Chinese is not requisite for successful practice and conversely, knowing Chinese does not even ensure that one is any good at all at practice.ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 Alon, > > >>>Obviously the more one knows the better he is. And I applaud those of you who are trying to master the language so that you can judge for yourselves. I am just wandering in the US what is ones best use of time I don't find the " best use of time " argument to be particularly convincing. What it boils down to is you have to have a value system to make such judgments. And a value system that does not incorporate the values of the language and literature of the subject does not accurately reflect the subject. I think the time issue is a red herring. Of course everybody wants to put their time to the best possible use. But to some that's sitting on the couch watching TV and to others it's jumping out of an airplane. You're assuming that if you knew something that you do not then things would look the same as they do to you now. I don't think that's a safe assumption. Bucky Fuller used to point out, as in An Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth, that even if we were to learn today that everything we'd held true up until today were found to be false, we would still know more today than yesterday. The value of that one new datum that one bit of knowledge that allows you to reevaluate your previous accumulation should not be underestimated. I understand that you feel the way you feel and believe what you say to be true, but the reason for an exchange such as this is to take a close look at assumptions and see if they stand up to scrutiny. Your assertion about the best use of time, i.e. that it is not the best use of one's time to learn Chinese medical langauge compared to studying " the medicine " does not scrutinize any of the underlying arguments that suggest that " the medicine " having been written by people who thought and spoke using Chinese language, is therefore inexorably marked with the characteristics of that langauge, as well as a range of other cultural influences. Teachers have always faced the task of teaching their students to think for themselves. Those who developed and transmitted the principles and methods of " the medicine " did so using the characteristics of Chinese language, Chinese epistemology, and a range of other artifacts of knolwedge that remain as worthy of inclusion in the education and training of doctors of the medicine today as ever. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 Dan, >To paraphrase Dan Bensky, knowing > Chinese is not requisite for successful practice It can't be both that it is not requisite and is a prerequisite at Dan's school. Dan, perhaps you can clarify your actual consideration on this point. Also, do I read the change in your requirements in fact as a lessening of the Chinese language instruction? and conversely, > knowing Chinese does not even ensure that one is any good at all at > practice. > nothing can ensure that one is any good at all at practice. All we can do in education is provide students access to the knowledge. Everyone has to learn it for themselves. Above the entrance to Royce Hall at UCLA, the founders of that institution inscribed the following words: " Education is learning to use the tools that the race has found indispensable. " Using this definition of education and applying it to Chinese medicine, it is not possible to consider as valid an education in Chinese medicine that does not teach students to use the tools that have been found indispensable by generations of scholars and doctors in China. If we want to see a substantial upgrade of our field we have to begin by demanding it of ourselves and of each other. There is no other way that it will come about except through the efforts of individuals to make it happen. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote: > Dan, > > >To paraphrase Dan Bensky, knowing > > Chinese is not requisite for successful practice > > It can't be both that it is not requisite and is > a prerequisite at Dan's school. I think Dan said it is immensely helpful, but that he knows plenty of px who do just fine w/o it. How is this possible? Perhaps there are those who are able to discern the patterns and principles despite this lack due to some other quality they possess. What is that quality? I have no idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 I believe that Pacific College of Oriental Medicine will require medical Chinese in the next year or so, at least as part of the doctorate, along with study of the classical literature. On Monday, December 17, 2001, at 05:07 AM, Rory Kerr wrote: > > -- > This points out one of the main reasons we do not have Chinese > medical language in the schools of Chinese medicine. I believe most > of the schools are operated to maximize profit, and therefore the > idea of selecting out students in this way is a non starter, and is > the reason Chinese language is unlikely to become a prerequisite for, > or a feature of, their programs. Same applies to a serious study of > the classic literature. > > Its nice to know there is one school operating on a different > principle. Are there others? > > Rory > -- > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2001 Report Share Posted December 18, 2001 > > >To paraphrase Dan Bensky, knowing > > > Chinese is not requisite for successful practice > > > > It can't be both that it is not requisite and is > > a prerequisite at Dan's school. > > I think Dan said it is immensely helpful, Which is why he makes it a prerequisite. >... but that he knows plenty of > px who do just fine w/o it. Well, what's plenty? And are we comfortable with doing without something that is so immensely helpful? > How is this possible? It doesn't seem all that mysterious to me. It's possible that someone can be a " born healer " and, after all, all that the theory and methods speak to and address is an understanding of the body and its circumstances. But again, do we want to rely upon such phenomena as the basis of instruction and examination? The Chinese tended to prefer a more orderly approach when it came to the establishment of organizations and agencies designed to promulgate medicine. Doesn't it strike you as a bit bizarre that we in the West have struck out on our own path without even bothering to become fully familiar with the traditional ways and means? Perhaps there are > those who are able to discern the patterns and principles despite this > lack due to some other quality they possess. What is that quality? I > have no idea. Lots of people are born with lots of gifts. Medical education can develop the inborn capacities if it is properly conducted. Or it can stifle them. It's not unimaginable that someone could be born to something as complicated as flying an airplane. I've known people who virtually taught themselves to fly a plane. You might not find flying with them all that comfortable however. While what you say is unarguably true, it does not address the issue of the importance of language and literary studies in the curricula of students of Chinese medicine. Yet you state it as a brush off of the argument in favor of the inclusion of these aspects of the study suggesting that simply because something can be or might be that we should depend on it. And I just don't find this to be convincing logic. Ken > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2001 Report Share Posted December 18, 2001 This is a most interesting conversation. It brings up many questions that I've been asking myself. ****** warning, this is a long post, you can just skip to the bottom to avoid my rambling ************** I have a few thoughts on learning Chinese, especially as it applies to practicing Chinese medicine. I'm currently living Taipei, where I have been studying Chinese full time, in an attempt to see if the language really does illuminate the practice of the medicine. I have more questions than answers, and an assortment of cherished hopes and dreams that now laying rusting and molding in the damp of Taiwan. I've heard it said that language gives the keys to a culture. It's like a window into another world. I believe it. In studying Chinese, I'm beginning to see how the grammar forces you into thinking in a certain way. It focuses your attention, parses experience into a certain rhythm and pattern. While I can sometimes catch the drift of the grammar, I'm sorry to say that I generally think in English. Chinese words, English phrasing. It's a frustration. A little language, for me, has not changed my world view. It only makes me realize how limited I've constructed the world. 8 months in Asia has certainly given me some firsthand experience with the culture that this medicine grows from. I see it used here in ways that are more integrated with the culture (of course). You can buy a si wu tang like drink in the 7/11. It is very common for woman to tonify their blood after their periods, and to know a fair amount about basic formulas. Herb stores are everywhere. People understand that there are certain foods that are hot or cold. Asia has also shown me how arrogant my thinking has been. I thought if I learned something of the language and culture, I could, perhaps, be a better doctor. What I'm finding is that learning about the culture means a lot more than learning a little Chinese. This culture is vast. A little language does not help me to penetrate very far. There are ways of doing and thinking here at are wildly different. Little things like guan xi and 'Face'. I'd heard about them. But, navigating them on a daily basis. It's like stepping into an Alice in Wonderland world. I come from a culture that places a high value on a person's 'insides' matching their 'outsides'. We call it congruency. Here in Taiwan that will not get you very far. You have to argue around the issue with a smile. Will this help me to be a better doctor? I don't know, I've yet master the art of giving and saving Face. And yet to treat a patient, where I consider their problem as something more something to be 'fixed'. I've yet to work with a persons symptoms in the same way I'd negotiate a deal that saves and gives Face. I thought being able to read a little medical Chinese, knowing the pinyin of herbs, and having read some translations of some Chinese classics might give me a leg up on learning Chinese here. I was so wrong. The first thing I learned is that pinyin has very little to do with Chinese. Pinyin is a system that approximates the sounds of Chinese. But, if you don't learn the tones, AND do it right. Make mistakes and get corrected. Over and again, then you have learned to speak something that is not English, nor is it Chinese. I learned this by walking into an herb store and trying to buy a few herbs. I was completely misunderstood. I'm not saying we should not be teaching people to use pinyin, but we should also make it clear that this is NOT Chinese. Unless we want to teach it correctly, which I think will be difficult, very few Americans know enough pronunciation to teach it correctly. I previously thought that knowing a little language would open up the world of Eastern thought to me. Maybe. But, if it does, I suspect it will take years of dedicated study. Not a few months of translating some articles. I suspect that that is simply Western thought with Chinese words. What tipped me off to this was looking at how Asian's use English. There is a thing here I call Asian English. It is terribly funny. You can see it on buildings, in advertisements, in the mottoes adorn the scooters here. It is completely laughable. The apartment building that says 'Performance of Architecture " . The scooter that claims, " We reach for the sky, neither does civilization " . The scooter that says, " for the young at heart that want to get away with it all " . The menu that says " Baked Chicken Nugget " and " Chess Ham Wich " . English here is used in ways that are hilarious. But, no one here thinks it is funny. Just us English speakers. I wonder if my grasp of the little Chinese I have is as off the mark, as the English I see in Asia. It certainly gives me pause to think. More than anything, spending some time in Asia and having my Western ideas about this place ripped away has been helpful. Being exposed to Asian racism, Asian hospitality, Asian standards of 'cleanliness', Asian generosity, the cultural norms, the ways traffic and people flow. The ways people connect. All this has given me a deeper appreciation for how people, where ever we are, find solutions to the problems of life. All this is a wordy way of saying: 1. I think learning some Chinese is a good idea. 2. Learning Chinese is a serious study. Three years of Chinese in Chinese medical school gave me a glimpse, but not an unobstructed view. Chinese medicinal school is a lot of work. Better to have studied some Chinese BEFORE going to medical school. 3. Pinyin is not Chinese. It might allow Americans to talk to each other, but it will not help you to talk to real Chinese speakers. 4. I suspect that a lot of the worldview is encoded in the grammar, the way you focus and parse experience into thought, thought into meaning. And meaning into action. 5. Taiwan is really fun sometimes, and the food rocks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2001 Report Share Posted December 18, 2001 Will, Exception taken. However, your pay scale is, in my experience, an exception rather than the rule. Bob , Will <will@e...> wrote: > Bob – > > I must take exception to your thoughtful, long and detailed post when it > comes to Emperor's College. > > To quote the Accreditation commission " The Chinese faculty members are > among the most qualified and experienced practitioners anywhere. > Doctoral degrees and post-doctoral fellowships are abundant, creating a > strong foundation for the eventual inclusion of a doctoral program at > the college. " No faculty member has less than five years experience with > the exception of a physical therapist/acupuncturist of 10 years > experience in physical therapy and two years as an acupuncturist > teaching the acu-anatomy course. > > Our pay scale is between $30-$45 an hour depending on background. This > comes nowhere near compensating these individuals for what they bring to > the table. However, at $120 a unit, faculty salaries amount to more than > half the annual revenue. I would love to pay these people more – but we > would have to close. Average Master's degree program fees are about $565 > a unit nationwide. If we begin to approximate the subsidy and fee > structures of the conventional educational systems, then the fee scales > you suggest for faculty become plausible. > > Will > > PS here is a brief summary of some of our faculty members who currently > serve the Master's program. They are each qualified for doctoral level > training. Some of them are qualified for teaching in the highest > academic posts in China. > > John Chen, Pharm.D., L.Ac. > Pharm.D., USC School of Pharmacy > PhD, OMD, South Baylor University > BA, California State University, Fullerton > Dr. Chen is currently an assistant professor in the University of > Southern California School of Pharmacy. In addition, he is President and > Founder of Lotus Herbs. > > Hua Gu, Ph.D., L.Ac. > Ph.D., China Academy of TCM, Beijing, China Orthopedic and Traumatology > specialist. Medicine Doctorate from Guangchou Medical College, China. > Dr. Gu is the only person in the U.S. to hold a Ph.D. in TCM Orthopedics > and is the Founder of the American Acupuncture Academy. Recent > publications include: > > • Clinical Traditional : Ortho- > pedic Volume. : Chinese Medical Science, > • Chinese Orthopedics and Traumatology. > Guang-shi, China: Scientific and > Technological Publisher, > • Spinal Biomechanical Changes and Related > Diseases. China Scientific > > > John Gu, L.Ac. > Shanghai University of TCM, China > Neiqiang Gu is from the famous Gu family lineage of Shanghai. His father > and grandfather practiced the dermatological specialty which includes > the surgical procedures of TCM. The Gu family lineage has many secret > prescriptions, especially in the arena of external applications. He has > been officially entitled and registered Asian academic inheritor of the > Most Distinguished Acupuncturists and Traditional Chinese Specialists, > the highest rank for Traditional Chinese Medical Doctors in the Peoples > Republic of China. With forty years of experience, Dr. Gu has published > more than thirty research papers and books including: " Differentiation > and Treatment of Psoriasis " , " Differentiation and Treatment of Eczema " , > " Studies of 100 Cases on Warts " , " Six Methods to Treat Vitiligo by Boha > Gu " , and " Clinical Experiences from Xiaoyan Gu " . > > Jerome Jiang, Ph.D., Chinese Classics, East China > Normal University, China > Professor Jiang has taught and conducted research at universities in > China, Japan and the United States. He has taught many courses in > Traditional and Chinese languages and philosophies, > including the " Yellow Emperor's Classic. " Recent publications include: > > • Annotation and Analysis on the Book of > Odes, China Publishing House, Oct. 1991 > • The Variorum of the Analects of Confu- > cius (textual criticism and punctuation) > China Publishing House (Zhong Hua > Shu Ju), Oct. 1990 > • Thirty Treatises on Taoist Literature, > Shanghai Social Science Publishing > House, Sep. 1993 > • Selected Translation of The Book of > Odes, Ba Shu Publishing House, Jun. 1990 > • The Modern Annotation and Translation > of the Book of Odes, Yue Lu Publishing > House, 1994 > • I Ching, Lao Tse and the Yin Yang > Theory, The Fifth International Congress > of , Jun. 1990 > > > > Xiu-Ling Ma, Ph.D., L.Ac. > Ph.D., Beijing University of TCM, Beijing, China > MS, Beijing University of TCM, Beijing, China > MD, Beijing University of TCM, Beijing, China > Dr. Ma is one of the most highly educated professionals in the field of > Traditional (TCM), both in China and in the United > States. She graduated first in her class from the prestigious Beijing > University of TCM and completed twelve full years of education in > integrated TCM and Western Medicine. As part of her education, Dr. Ma > studied directly under two distinguished TCM Masters in China-Dr. > Jia-San Yang and Dr. Zi-Fu Chen, both of whom accept only one or two > students each year. Before coming to Los Angeles in 1995, Dr. Ma was a > professor, physician and researcher at the Beijing University of TCM. > She also conducted clinical research as to the efficacy of herbs and > acupuncture in treating various illnesses, such as stroke, asthma, > diabetes, the common cold and many others. Dr. Ma is authorized to > treat patients at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center and at the Daniel Freeman > Marina Hospital. She is also the Acupuncture Program Director of a > research project on acupuncture for stroke patients, a project > coordinated by the USC School of Medicine, Daniel Freeman Hospital > Marina and Emperor's College. Dr. Ma also maintains a private practice > at the Acu-Herbal Medical Arts. Dr Ma has published over a dozen books > and articles on TCM subjects. Recent publications include: > > • Pocket Manual of Practical Acupuncture. > Tianjin, China: Tianjin Scientech > Publishing House, 1995. > • Practical Acupuncture Treatment > for Diseases of the Nervous System. China > Traditional Publishing > House, 1994. > • Fifteen Kinds of Medical Skills. China > Traditional Publishing > House, 1996. > • The Selected Works for Health Preservation of > Ancient China. Beijing Broadcast College > Publishing House, 1992. > • Progress of Clinical and Experimental Studies > on Acupuncture Treatment of Cerebrovascular > Diseases. > • Experience of Professor Jia-san Yang in > Epilepsy Treatment with Acupuncture. > Education of Traditional . > 1994;3:46. > > > Zhou Yi Qiu, L.Ac. > Postdoctoral fellow in Cardiology, > Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, TX > Cardiology Training, Sun Yat Sen (Guangzhou) Medical University, > Guangzhou, China > Dr. Qiu is a unique addition to Emperor's College due to his background > in TCM Cardiology. Recent publications include: > > • Short-term Effect of Treating Congestive > Heart Failure with Ilexanin A, Collected > papers of the Second Symposium of Cardiovas- > cular Disease of Guangdong Provincial Heart > Association of integrated Traditional Chinese > Medicine and Western Medicine.1992;78. > • Progress of Traditional > studies on essential hypertension. > Collected papers of the first international > conference of Traditional . > 1993;39. > > > > Tiande Yang, Ph.D., L.Ac. > Ph.D., Beijing University of TCM, Beijing, China > Dr. Yang has been officially entitled and registered Asian academic > inheritor of the Most Distinguished Acupuncturists and Traditional > Chinese Specialists, the highest rank for Traditional Chinese Medical > Doctors in the Peoples Republic of China. To preserve the heritage of > , 500 of the most respected Chinese Doctors selected two > pupils each to pass on their time-honored medical knowledge and skills. > Dr. Yang is one of the 1,000 elects and started his apprenticeship under > his father at age 16. As an Assistant Professor of Traditional Chinese > Medicine at the Beijing College of Traditional since > 1988, he was the physician in charge of the Department of Acupuncture > and Moxibustion at the Beijing Dongzhimen Hospital. > > Yun Kyoung Yim, Ph.D., L.Ac. > Ph.D., Kyung Hee University, Seoul, South Korea > Dr. Yim has counseled and assisted Neuro-Acupuncture research at > University of California, Irvine's Medical Department. She has > conducted extensive research and theses on acupuncture, moxabustion, and > heart disease. Dr. Yim is currently a supervisor and instructor at > Emperor's College and Clinic. > > > << > 1. Hire professorial level teachers to teach Masters and Doctoral > level programs, not the equivalent of teaching assistants (TAs). > > By this I mean: A) Do national and international job searches for > qualified professors who 1) read at least one Far East Asian language, > 2) have at least 10 years clinical experience in Chinese medicine, 3) > are fluent English speakers, and 4) have some training in Western > educational philosophy, techniques, and academic standards. > > Since there is, in my experience, a dearth of such qualified people, > this means that there should be less programs. I believe that it would > be better to turn out fewer but better trained practitioners than > more, lesser trained practitioners (at least when it comes to the > internal administration of Chinese medicinals, as opposed to > acupuncture). I believe Dan Bensky's school is on the right tract in > terms of size vis a vis quality control. > > 2. Pay those professors a professorial salary of not less than $70K > per annum. > > Right now and, again, in my experience, schools pay somewhere between > $25-30 per hour, with most teachers only working part time at teaching > and few schools paying for class prep time. Far too often, our > teachers teach because they are not busy in their own clinics or they > need a employer-secured green card. Too many of our teachers are > recent graduates with less than 5 years clinical experience or recent > immigrants who A) cannot communicate a doctoral level of technical > material in doctoral level English and B) have yet to really > understand the requirements of doing Chinese medicine with our patient > population. The first requirement of an effective professional teacher > is not necessarily being the wrold's greatest expert in their field > but being an effective communicator to the target audience. This means > that persons who may be crackerjack practitioners or even well known > teachers in China may not be particularly effective teachers in the > U.S. > > 3. Require professors to conduct research, translate, and/or publish > just like professors in bona fide doctoral programs would be expected > in regular academe. > > 4. Require more stringent entrance levels. If we're are truly going > for a doctoral level program, then how come we don't require the GRE? > I believe a B.A. or B.S. should be absolutely mandatory, even of the > current " M.S. " level students. The older I get, the more I believe > that there's just no substitute for a good all-around, general > education. Studying logic may, seemingly, have nothing to do with the > clinical practice of Chinese medicine, but it teaches one to think, > and thinking most certainly does have to do with the clinical practice > of Chinese medicine. Likewise, studying anthropology may seem > irrelevant, but, from my personal experience, studying some medical > anthropology has helped me immensely in getting clear about certain > aspects of Chinese medical psychiatry. >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2001 Report Share Posted December 18, 2001 Todd-- .. ..plenty of px who do just fine w/o it. How is this possible? Perhaps there are those who are able to discern the patterns and principles despite this lack due to some other quality they possess. What is that quality? I have no idea. Could it be that some practitioners' intuitive sense forms a bridge? Some former life connection with China? I, too, have only a few suppositions as to why, and I'm glad you added these thoughts to this conversation. Frances 1 wrote: , "dragon90405" <yulong@m...> wrote: > Dan, > > >To paraphrase Dan Bensky, knowing > > Chinese is not requisite for successful practice > > It can't be both that it is not requisite and is > a prerequisite at Dan's school. I think Dan said it is immensely helpful, but that he knows plenty of px who do just fine w/o it. How is this possible? Perhaps there are those who are able to discern the patterns and principles despite this lack due to some other quality they possess. What is that quality? I have no idea. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2001 Report Share Posted December 18, 2001 Perhaps the utility of reading Chinese has something to do with whether one is primarily doing acupuncture or primarily prescribing internal meds. Personally, since I don't think Chinese medical theory is absolutely necessary for getting results with acupuncture, I don't feel as strongly that acupuncturists need to read Chinese. I feel the same way about tuina. However, I feel quite differently about the prescription of Chinese meds. While Mark VanBenschoten has recently argued that Chinese medical theory is not necessary to prescribe Chinese meds, I still think it is the most useful system for their prescription, and it is my experience that understanding the Chinese language and having access to the Chinese literature makes a large difference in understanding and, therefore, applying this system in clinical practice. I've seen plenty of acupuncturists get good results who did not have access to the Chinese literature (or much of any literature, for that matter). However, most of the really good prescribers of Chinese meds I know have at least some access to the Chinese literature. Further, as a teacher, I've seen a marked increase in students' ability to practice internal Chinese medicine concomitant with their increased ability to access the Chinese literature. In addition, I have been impressed (specifically with their herbal expertise) with the graduates of Dan's school who have moved to Boulder fresh after graduation compared to recent graduates of other schools. I agree with Dan that one does not have to read Chinese to be a good practitioner. There are many factors that go to making a good practitioner, and I think it is important that we recognize that some of those factors differ between acupuncture and Chinese herbalism. When it comes to prescribing Chinese medicinals, I think reading Chinese makes a big difference in really grokking the system. Bob , " 1 " <@i...> wrote: > , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote: > > Dan, > > > > >To paraphrase Dan Bensky, knowing > > > Chinese is not requisite for successful practice > > > > It can't be both that it is not requisite and is > > a prerequisite at Dan's school. > > I think Dan said it is immensely helpful, but that he knows plenty of > px who do just fine w/o it. How is this possible? Perhaps there are > those who are able to discern the patterns and principles despite this > lack due to some other quality they possess. What is that quality? I > have no idea. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2001 Report Share Posted December 18, 2001 Z'ev (and, by extension Jack et al), Bravo! Bob , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > I believe that Pacific College of Oriental Medicine will require medical > Chinese in the next year or so, at least as part of the doctorate, along > with study of the classical literature. > > > On Monday, December 17, 2001, at 05:07 AM, Rory Kerr wrote: > > > > -- > > This points out one of the main reasons we do not have Chinese > > medical language in the schools of Chinese medicine. I believe most > > of the schools are operated to maximize profit, and therefore the > > idea of selecting out students in this way is a non starter, and is > > the reason Chinese language is unlikely to become a prerequisite for, > > or a feature of, their programs. Same applies to a serious study of > > the classic literature. > > > > Its nice to know there is one school operating on a different > > principle. Are there others? > > > > Rory > > -- > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > > education. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2001 Report Share Posted December 18, 2001 , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote: > > While what you say is unarguably true, it > does not address the issue of the importance > of language and literary studies in the curricula > of students of Chinese medicine. Yet you state > it as a brush off of the argument in favor > of the inclusion of these aspects of the study > suggesting that simply because something can be > or might be that we should depend on it. It is not meant to brush off the importance of this undertaking. However, there are good practitioners out there who are deeply offended by statements to the effect that without knowing chinese, they border on malpractice. Most people have to learn scales, but there are always a few mozarts. The logic of chinese studies is unassailable. the reality of good px who don't do this is also without question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2001 Report Share Posted December 18, 2001 I suspect different sides of the brain, so pattern recognition (right side) and language (left side) use different resources. Connections can be made but studying language does not necessarily imply competency in pattern recognition. Learning language will help round out the whole person (the college humanities position) and reinforce associations that can include diagnostic pattern recognition, but it isn't necessary to do so. In Dong Han pulse diagnosis we always palpate the pulse using only the left hand to improve the connection to the right side of the brain and increase the nerve endings in the fingertips. We learn to look at much greater details than basic TCM, which uses both hands with different sensitivities. Using only the one hand allows you to needle and check pulses at the same time; but, more importantly, there is concentrated training to increase sensitivity---that is, the quanitity and quality of nerve connections. Jim Ramholz , Frances Gander <fgander@c...> wrote: -- > > > . ..plenty of px who do just fine w/o it. How is this possible? Perhaps there are > > those who are able to discern the patterns and principles despite this > > lack due to some other quality they possess. What is that quality? I > > have no idea. > > > > Could it be that some practitioners' intuitive sense forms a bridge? > Some former life connection with China? > I, too, have only a few suppositions as to why, and I'm glad you added > these thoughts to this conversation. > > Frances > > 1 wrote: > > > , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote: > > > Dan, > > > > > > >To paraphrase Dan Bensky, knowing > > > > Chinese is not requisite for successful practice > > > > > > It can't be both that it is not requisite and is > > > a prerequisite at Dan's school. > > > > I think Dan said it is immensely helpful, but that he knows plenty of > > px who do just fine w/o it. How is this possible? Perhaps there are > > those who are able to discern the patterns and principles despite this > > > > lack due to some other quality they possess. What is that quality? I > > > > have no idea. > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2001 Report Share Posted December 18, 2001 Bob, Matt VanBenschoten argues that knotty diseases seem to respond better to chinese herbs based on a pharmacological approach. I would be surprised if he was making a blanket statement about the whole system. Warren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2001 Report Share Posted December 18, 2001 thanks for sharing your experience. i really enjoyed reading your thoughts. i too had a similiar take on my china experience in harbin, but believe me the food did not rock. it was a great way to lose 10 pounds though! susan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2001 Report Share Posted December 18, 2001 It would seem that if one learned adequately the theory and logic behind treating knotty diseases in Chinese medicine, i.e. Li-Zhu medicine, Liu Wan-su's Law of Similar Transformation, Nan Jing Five Phase theory and the like, that one wouldn't need to limit the use of Chinese herbs to a pharmacological approach. One of the problems I have with the Van Benschoten approach is that Western pharmacological theory does not have a method to determine appropriate combinations of medicines as Chinese medicine does. On Tuesday, December 18, 2001, at 10:22 AM, Warren Cargal wrote: > Bob, > > Matt VanBenschoten argues that knotty diseases seem to respond better to > chinese herbs based on a pharmacological approach. I would be surprised > if he was making a blanket statement about the whole system. > > Warren > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2001 Report Share Posted December 18, 2001 Well, this list is a busy place! Let's see if I can reply to everyone in one message as they are somewhat related: Alon asked about particulars as to how even a smattering of Chinese helps students learn Chinese medicine. I'll give a couple of examples off the top of my head: 1) There are at least a few important words that as far as I can tell are impossible to translate well. If the students learn these words and what they mean, the Chinese can be used in clinical discussions enabling everyone to " cut to the chase. " One example of this is tong1 " unblocked, free-flowing, free, unstop, etc. " There are many other examples. 2) Chinese is a culture of context and relationships and harmony. I think the emphasis on these is one of the hallmarks of the medicine. Studying any aspect of Chinese language brings this out very, very clearly. For example, in classical Chinese, many verbs are about a relationship rather than the linear direction of that relationship (which is determined by context). Examples are that the same word can mean " give " or " receive; " another word can mean " to present from a superior to an inferior " or " to present from an inferior to a superior. " This, along with the parallelism that is inherent in the language, helps people understand such concepts as the interrelationships of the five phases. Ken asked a couple of questions: 1) Is the change in our requirements a lessening of the Chinese language instruction? No. We are continuing the same amount of instruction in the school's curriculum. Now that as of next fall all incoming students will have at least one semester of Chinese before coming here, we expect that we will be able to cover significantly more material and have better outcomes. If there is something that I wrote that gave you the opposite impression, please point it out to me so that I can correct it. 2) How could I say that Chinese in not requisite for successful practice [Todd's paraphrase] yet have it as a prerequisite for our school? I found this an interesting question, though not one that made immediate sense to me. One has to do with the way things are; the other with the way I want to do things. The number of thoughtful successful practitioners just on this list who read no East Asian language are obvious evidence that one can get along without this skill. Practicing medicine is such a humbling experience that it has taught even someone like me that it is hubris to think anyone really knows what it takes to do it well. On the other hand, when Paul Karsten (who is the educational specialist behind our school - I am just along for the ride) and I started thinking about starting SIOM many years ago, it was just as obvious to me that without a language component it just would not be worth my while to be involved in the school. I think a decent analogy is that while there are good cooks who only have one arm and brilliant rock climbers who are blind, it is easier to cook with two arms and rock climb if you can see. This gets back to our mission and goals. In the simplest terms, we have been trying to provide the students with the right dynamic, to set them off on a good trajectory so that with the tools that they have learned from us, the experience that their patients give them, and the further learning they will get in post- graduate seminars, they will continue to grow as practitioners and deepen their understanding of the medicine. It is way too soon to tell if we have been successful. Finally, while it may appear to be self-serving, I have to take exception to some of Bob Flaws' remarks about future pathways of education. While clearly he and I agree on much in this regard, I am afraid that I don't think that university-based education will be the salvation of our field here. The reason is that the industrial model of education has its own dynamics and culture and shi4 [propensities/inclinations/forces]; to me most of these are inimical to the study of Chinese medicine. Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2001 Report Share Posted December 18, 2001 - You're assuming that if you knew somethingthat you do not then things would look thesame as they do to you now. I don't thinkthat's a safe assumption. >>>That I do agree with. And I may/or not have a diffrent view if I have put more energy on Chinese. All I can go with is to compar to frinds that did Alon dragon90405 Monday, December 17, 2001 8:55 PM Re: Chinese language requirements Alon,> > >>>Obviously the more one knows the better he is. And I applaud those of you who are trying to master the language so that you can judge for yourselves. I am just wandering in the US what is ones best use of timeI don't find the "best use of time" argumentto be particularly convincing. What it boilsdown to is you have to have a value systemto make such judgments. And a value systemthat does not incorporate the values of thelanguage and literature of the subject doesnot accurately reflect the subject.I think the time issue is a red herring.Of course everybody wants to put theirtime to the best possible use. But to somethat's sitting on the couch watching TVand to others it's jumping out of an airplane.You're assuming that if you knew somethingthat you do not then things would look thesame as they do to you now. I don't thinkthat's a safe assumption. Bucky Fuller used to point out, as in An Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth,that even if we were to learn today thateverything we'd held true up until todaywere found to be false, we would still knowmore today than yesterday. The value of that one new datum that one bit of knowledge that allows you to reevaluate your previous accumulationshould not be underestimated.I understand that you feel the way youfeel and believe what you say to be true,but the reason for an exchange such as thisis to take a close look at assumptions andsee if they stand up to scrutiny. Yourassertion about the best use of time, i.e.that it is not the best use of one's timeto learn Chinese medical langauge comparedto studying "the medicine" does not scrutinizeany of the underlying arguments that suggestthat "the medicine" having been written by people who thought and spoke using Chineselanguage, is therefore inexorably marked withthe characteristics of that langauge, as wellas a range of other cultural influences.Teachers have always faced the task ofteaching their students to think for themselves.Those who developed and transmitted the principlesand methods of "the medicine" did so using thecharacteristics of Chinese language, Chineseepistemology, and a range of other artifactsof knolwedge that remain as worthy of inclusion inthe education and training of doctors ofthe medicine today as ever.KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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