integrative med

[Guest guest]

After my last reply to Mr. Flaws, a question occurred to me. What

do people think about western medicine and science in regard to using herbs

and supplements. Does the western view of the body have inherent

therapeutic value or does it merely serve to offer objective evidence about

the course of treatment? What I mean is whether the fact that we

know there is a virus present or an autoimmune condition is or should be

of any relevance to our practices? Or is this only useful to prove

to a mainstream audience that our strictly TCM methods worked. We

all admit that WM is of value in a life threatening emergency, wherein

its view of the body has yielded effective therapies lacking in TCM, such

as tx of anaphylactic shock. It seems to me that if WM view of the

body is useful in one circumstance that it stands to reason that it has

something to offer in others, completely separate, but complementary to

our TCM approach. that is to say that giving an herb that interferes

with the autoimmune process may have inherent value regardless of whether

it fits the TCM pattern.

-- ,

 

 

FAX:

 

[Guest guest]

Bob -

 

Los Angeles Free Clinic is interested in doing research on some aspect of diabetes. Were there any remarkable studies worth replicating?

 

Thanks

Will

 

In a message dated 12/20/01 8:32:59 AM Pacific Standard Time, pemachophel2001 writes:

 

 

I don't know if this is useful information as part of this discussion, but I found it interesting. It also is congruent of all the other research Philippe and I did for our WM disease book which discusses more than 70 modern WM diseases, all the research Dr. Lake and I did for our psych book, and all the research Lynn Kuchinski, Dr. Casanas, and I did for our upcoming diabetes book. If you were to ask me today a Western medical question about diabetes and its many complications, I think I could answer as well as most Western medical school students if GPs. However, I cannot say there is a single Chinese medicine that treats all cases of DM no matter what the pattern. (The Chinese language bibliography is more than 20 pages of 10 point type.)

[Guest guest]

Tood,

 

Good question. For me this issue has to do with the relationship

between disease discrimination (bian bing) and pattern discrimination

(bian zheng). Chinese medicine is not so strong in disease diagnosis,

while Western medicine either lacks or has only rudimentary pattern

discrimination. However, disease diagnosis is a very important part of

the therapeutic process, even in Chinese medicine. (Bob Damone

will be teaching a class on the relationship of disease

diagnosis to pattern discrimination to treatment for Blue Poppy

Institute in 2002.) Knowing about the disease tells you all sorts of

useful stuff, such as natural history, mortality, prognosis, danger

signs, when to refer, etc.

 

However, I think your question really has to do with whether or not

knowing the WM disease diagnosis helps us prescribe specific

medicinals. As you know, I just spent the last year and a half working

on The Treatment of Modern Western Medical Diseases with Chinese

Medicine. In creating that book, Philippe Sionneau and I looked at

every Chinese textbook, every Chinese case history, and every Chinese

research report we could find on each particular disease. Having done

that, I cannot say that I can think of a single Western medical

disease where a particular Chinese medicinal appears to get reliable

thereapeutic effects in that disease regardless of the patient's

pattern. In other words, I cannot think of any disease where a single

medicinal winds up in every single formula for every single pattern of

a single WM disease.

 

Just yesterday I was writing an article on AIDS for the Townsend

Letter. This article was based on a chapter in a recent Chinese book

on viral diseases (Bing Du Xing Ji Bing De Liang Fang Miao Fa, Fine

Formulas & Wonderous Methods for Viral Diseases). In the first three

patterns (there were more than 20 patterns discussed), Radix Isatidis

Seu Baphicacanthi (Ban Lan Gen) and Flos Lonicerae Japonicae (Yin Jin

Hua) showed up in all three recommended formulas. Since these

medicinals are believed to have antiviral effects, I immediately

became curious whether the authors were going to continue including

these medicinals in every formula for every pattern based on the fact

that, in standard WM, AIDS is a viral disease. However, as it turned

out, neither these nor other " antiviral " Chinese meds were included in

the formulas for the majority of the other patterns.

 

This piqued my interest. So I looked through the rest of the chapters

in this book and then through another recent Chinese book on the

Chinese medical treatment of viral diseases (Bing Du Xing Ji Bing De

Zhong Yi Zhi Liao, The Chinese Medical Treatment of Viral Dieases).

What I found was that the authors of these books did not routinely

prescribe a single Chinese medicine for all patterns of a single viral

disease. I would also point out that the lion's share of the

information in both these books was on Western medicine, not Chinese

medicine. In other words, the authors of these two books spent a lot

of time researching the WM literature on these diseases and believed

that WM was important for understanding the treatment of these

diseases, but they were not able to identify any Chinese medicinal

" silver bullets " for these diseases.

 

I don't know if this is useful information as part of this discussion,

but I found it interesting. It also is congruent of all the other

research Philippe and I did for our WM disease book which discusses

more than 70 modern WM diseases, all the research Dr. Lake and I did

for our psych book, and all the research Lynn Kuchinski, Dr. Casanas,

and I did for our upcoming diabetes book. If you were to ask me today

a Western medical question about diabetes and its many complications,

I think I could answer as well as most Western medical school

students if GPs. However, I cannot say there is a single Chinese

medicine that treats all cases of DM no matter what the pattern. (The

Chinese language bibliography is more than 20 pages of 10 point type.)

 

Bob

 

 

, wrote:

> After my last reply to Mr. Flaws, a question occurred to me. What

do

> people think about western medicine and science in regard to using

herbs

> and supplements. Does the western view of the body have inherent

> therapeutic value or does it merely serve to offer objective

evidence

> about the course of treatment? What I mean is whether the fact that

we

> know there is a virus present or an autoimmune condition is or

should be

> of any relevance to our practices? Or is this only useful to prove

to a

> mainstream audience that our strictly TCM methods worked. We all

admit

> that WM is of value in a life threatening emergency, wherein its

view of

> the body has yielded effective therapies lacking in TCM, such as tx

of

> anaphylactic shock. It seems to me that if WM view of the body is

> useful in one circumstance that it stands to reason that it has

> something to offer in others, completely separate, but complementary

to

> our TCM approach. that is to say that giving an herb that

interferes

> with the autoimmune process may have inherent value regardless of

> whether it fits the TCM pattern.

>

> --

> Chinese Herbs

>

> FAX:

[Guest guest]

I don't know if this is useful information as part of this discussion, but I found it interesting. It also is congruent of all the other research Philippe and I did for our WM disease book which discusses more than 70 modern WM diseases, all the research Dr. Lake and I did for our psych book, and all the research Lynn Kuchinski, Dr. Casanas, and I did for our upcoming diabetes book. If you were to ask me today a Western medical question about diabetes and its many complications, I think I could answer as well as most Western medical school students if GPs. However, I cannot say there is a single Chinese medicine that treats all cases of DM no matter what the pattern. (The Chinese language bibliography is more than 20 pages of 10 point type.)>>>>With this as well as the rest of the post I totally agree. I think it is very important to understand both OM and WM even though there is no direct correlation in treatment. But it is essential for being a safe and good clinician.

Alon

 

-

pemachophel2001

Thursday, December 20, 2001 10:30 AM

Re: integrative med

Tood,Good question. For me this issue has to do with the relationship between disease discrimination (bian bing) and pattern discrimination (bian zheng). Chinese medicine is not so strong in disease diagnosis, while Western medicine either lacks or has only rudimentary pattern discrimination. However, disease diagnosis is a very important part of the therapeutic process, even in Chinese medicine. (Bob Damone will be teaching a class on the relationship of disease diagnosis to pattern discrimination to treatment for Blue Poppy Institute in 2002.) Knowing about the disease tells you all sorts of useful stuff, such as natural history, mortality, prognosis, danger signs, when to refer, etc.However, I think your question really has to do with whether or not knowing the WM disease diagnosis helps us prescribe specific medicinals. As you know, I just spent the last year and a half working on The Treatment of Modern Western Medical Diseases with . In creating that book, Philippe Sionneau and I looked at every Chinese textbook, every Chinese case history, and every Chinese research report we could find on each particular disease. Having done that, I cannot say that I can think of a single Western medical disease where a particular Chinese medicinal appears to get reliable thereapeutic effects in that disease regardless of the patient's pattern. In other words, I cannot think of any disease where a single medicinal winds up in every single formula for every single pattern of a single WM disease.Just yesterday I was writing an article on AIDS for the Townsend Letter. This article was based on a chapter in a recent Chinese book on viral diseases (Bing Du Xing Ji Bing De Liang Fang Miao Fa, Fine Formulas & Wonderous Methods for Viral Diseases). In the first three patterns (there were more than 20 patterns discussed), Radix Isatidis Seu Baphicacanthi (Ban Lan Gen) and Flos Lonicerae Japonicae (Yin Jin Hua) showed up in all three recommended formulas. Since these medicinals are believed to have antiviral effects, I immediately became curious whether the authors were going to continue including these medicinals in every formula for every pattern based on the fact that, in standard WM, AIDS is a viral disease. However, as it turned out, neither these nor other "antiviral" Chinese meds were included in the formulas for the majority of the other patterns.This piqued my interest. So I looked through the rest of the chapters in this book and then through another recent Chinese book on the Chinese medical treatment of viral diseases (Bing Du Xing Ji Bing De Zhong Yi Zhi Liao, The Chinese Medical Treatment of Viral Dieases). What I found was that the authors of these books did not routinely prescribe a single Chinese medicine for all patterns of a single viral disease. I would also point out that the lion's share of the information in both these books was on Western medicine, not Chinese medicine. In other words, the authors of these two books spent a lot of time researching the WM literature on these diseases and believed that WM was important for understanding the treatment of these diseases, but they were not able to identify any Chinese medicinal "silver bullets" for these diseases.I don't know if this is useful information as part of this discussion, but I found it interesting. It also is congruent of all the other research Philippe and I did for our WM disease book which discusses more than 70 modern WM diseases, all the research Dr. Lake and I did for our psych book, and all the research Lynn Kuchinski, Dr. Casanas, and I did for our upcoming diabetes book. If you were to ask me today a Western medical question about diabetes and its many complications, I think I could answer as well as most Western medical school students if GPs. However, I cannot say there is a single Chinese medicine that treats all cases of DM no matter what the pattern. (The Chinese language bibliography is more than 20 pages of 10 point type.)Bob, wrote:> After my last reply to Mr. Flaws, a question occurred to me. What do> people think about western medicine and science in regard to using herbs> and supplements. Does the western view of the body have inherent> therapeutic value or does it merely serve to offer objective evidence> about the course of treatment? What I mean is whether the fact that we> know there is a virus present or an autoimmune condition is or should be> of any relevance to our practices? Or is this only useful to prove to a> mainstream audience that our strictly TCM methods worked. We all admit> that WM is of value in a life threatening emergency, wherein its view of> the body has yielded effective therapies lacking in TCM, such as tx of> anaphylactic shock. It seems to me that if WM view of the body is> useful in one circumstance that it stands to reason that it has> something to offer in others, completely separate, but complementary to> our TCM approach. that is to say that giving an herb that interferes> with the autoimmune process may have inherent value regardless of> whether it fits the TCM pattern.> > -- > Chinese Herbs> http://www..org> FAX: Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

 

- Los Angeles Free Clinic is interested in doing research on some aspect of diabetes. Were there any remarkable studies worth replicating?

>>>I would love to see this occure. Do you know if they want to do type I or type II. Also Bob, since when I was in China our hosiptle had Dr's come from all over China to evaluate their treatment of type I diabeties (which they all published they could), and concluded that TCM can not controle the sugar levels, and only treat complications, what have you found in the litrature reviews. Just curious.

Thanks Alon

 

WMorris116

Thursday, December 20, 2001 10:43 AM

Re: Re: integrative med

Bob - Los Angeles Free Clinic is interested in doing research on some aspect of diabetes. Were there any remarkable studies worth replicating? Thanks Will In a message dated 12/20/01 8:32:59 AM Pacific Standard Time, pemachophel2001 writes:

I don't know if this is useful information as part of this discussion, but I found it interesting. It also is congruent of all the other research Philippe and I did for our WM disease book which discusses more than 70 modern WM diseases, all the research Dr. Lake and I did for our psych book, and all the research Lynn Kuchinski, Dr. Casanas, and I did for our upcoming diabetes book. If you were to ask me today a Western medical question about diabetes and its many complications, I think I could answer as well as most Western medical school students if GPs. However, I cannot say there is a single Chinese medicine that treats all cases of DM no matter what the pattern. (The Chinese language bibliography is more than 20 pages of 10 point type.)Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Alon -

 

The study is for type II diabetes. We have successfully completed a study on pain which will be published soon. The funding will be there to conduct subsequent studies. There will be highly qualified statisticians participating in the project.

 

Will

 

In a message dated 12/20/01 10:09:37 AM Pacific Standard Time, alonmarcus writes:

 

 

----- Los Angeles Free Clinic is interested in doing research on some aspect of diabetes. Were there any remarkable studies worth replicating?

>>>I would love to see this occure. Do you know if they want to do type I or type II. Also Bob, since when I was in China our hosiptle had Dr's come from all over China to evaluate their treatment of type I diabeties (which they all published they could), and concluded that TCM can not controle the sugar levels, and only treat complications, what have you found in the litrature reviews. Just curious.

[Guest guest]

Bob -

 

From your response it sounds as though I should take all the sources and studies to be of equal veracity. If any of them struck you as being from a substantial and authoritative group with overwhelming results, that would be useful information.

thanks Will

 

In a message dated 12/20/01 3:05:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, pemachophel2001 writes:

 

 

 

There are literally hundreds of studies cited and abstracted in the book.

 

Bob

[Guest guest]

Will,

 

There are literally hundreds of studies cited and abstracted in the

book.

 

Bob

 

 

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

> Bob -

>

> Los Angeles Free Clinic is interested in doing research on some

aspect of

> diabetes. Were there any remarkable studies worth replicating?

>

> Thanks

>

> Will

>

> In a message dated 12/20/01 8:32:59 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> pemachophel2001 writes:

>

>

> > I don't know if this is useful information as part of this

discussion,

> > but I found it interesting. It also is congruent of all the other

> > research Philippe and I did for our WM disease book which

discusses

> > more than 70 modern WM diseases, all the research Dr. Lake and I

did

> > for our psych book, and all the research Lynn Kuchinski, Dr.

Casanas,

> > and I did for our upcoming diabetes book. If you were to ask me

today

> > a Western medical question about diabetes and its many

complications,

> > I think I could answer as well as most Western medical school

> > students if GPs. However, I cannot say there is a single Chinese

> > medicine that treats all cases of DM no matter what the pattern.

(The

> > Chinese language bibliography is more than 20 pages of 10 point

type.)

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

We did actually find at least one Chinese assertion that CM could

" cure " type 1 DM. However, there are no case studies in the book

supporting that nor any research reports. Therefore, we do not support

that point of view. Definitely the book includes case studies and some

research about CM's ability to control the symptoms and prevent the

complications of type 1 DM. However, the majority of the book is about

type 2 DM, as is the overwhelming majority of published Chinese

research.

 

Bob

 

, " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

>

> - Los Angeles Free Clinic is interested

in doing research on some aspect of diabetes. Were there any

remarkable studies worth replicating?

> >>>I would love to see this occure. Do you know if they want to do

type I or type II. Also Bob, since when I was in China our hosiptle

had Dr's come from all over China to evaluate their treatment of type

I diabeties (which they all published they could), and concluded that

TCM can not controle the sugar levels, and only treat complications,

what have you found in the litrature reviews. Just curious.

> Thanks Alon

>

>

> WMorris116@A...

>

> Thursday, December 20, 2001 10:43 AM

> Re: Re: integrative med

>

>

> Bob -

>

> Los Angeles Free Clinic is interested in doing research on some

aspect of diabetes. Were there any remarkable studies worth

replicating?

>

> Thanks

>

> Will

>

> In a message dated 12/20/01 8:32:59 AM Pacific Standard Time,

pemachophel2001 writes:

>

>

>

> I don't know if this is useful information as part of this

discussion,

> but I found it interesting. It also is congruent of all the

other

> research Philippe and I did for our WM disease book which

discusses

> more than 70 modern WM diseases, all the research Dr. Lake and I

did

> for our psych book, and all the research Lynn Kuchinski, Dr.

Casanas,

> and I did for our upcoming diabetes book. If you were to ask me

today

> a Western medical question about diabetes and its many

complications,

> I think I could answer as well as most Western medical school

> students if GPs. However, I cannot say there is a single Chinese

> medicine that treats all cases of DM no matter what the pattern.

(The

> Chinese language bibliography is more than 20 pages of 10 point

type.)

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

thanks

 

-

pemachophel2001

Thursday, December 20, 2001 5:04 PM

Re: integrative med

Alon,We did actually find at least one Chinese assertion that CM could "cure" type 1 DM. However, there are no case studies in the book supporting that nor any research reports. Therefore, we do not support that point of view. Definitely the book includes case studies and some research about CM's ability to control the symptoms and prevent the complications of type 1 DM. However, the majority of the book is about type 2 DM, as is the overwhelming majority of published Chinese research.Bob, "Alon Marcus" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> > - Los Angeles Free Clinic is interested in doing research on some aspect of diabetes. Were there any remarkable studies worth replicating? > >>>I would love to see this occure. Do you know if they want to do type I or type II. Also Bob, since when I was in China our hosiptle had Dr's come from all over China to evaluate their treatment of type I diabeties (which they all published they could), and concluded that TCM can not controle the sugar levels, and only treat complications, what have you found in the litrature reviews. Just curious.> Thanks Alon> > > WMorris116@A... > > Thursday, December 20, 2001 10:43 AM> Re: Re: integrative med> > > Bob - > > Los Angeles Free Clinic is interested in doing research on some aspect of diabetes. Were there any remarkable studies worth replicating? > > Thanks > > Will > > In a message dated 12/20/01 8:32:59 AM Pacific Standard Time, pemachophel2001 writes: > > > > I don't know if this is useful information as part of this discussion, > but I found it interesting. It also is congruent of all the other > research Philippe and I did for our WM disease book which discusses > more than 70 modern WM diseases, all the research Dr. Lake and I did > for our psych book, and all the research Lynn Kuchinski, Dr. Casanas, > and I did for our upcoming diabetes book. If you were to ask me today > a Western medical question about diabetes and its many complications, > I think I could answer as well as most Western medical school > students if GPs. However, I cannot say there is a single Chinese > medicine that treats all cases of DM no matter what the pattern. (The > Chinese language bibliography is more than 20 pages of 10 point type.)> > > >

[Guest guest]

Will,

 

You need to read the book. It should be available in late spring.

 

Bob

 

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

> Bob -

>

> From your response it sounds as though I should take all the sources

and

> studies to be of equal veracity. If any of them struck you as being

from a

> substantial and authoritative group with overwhelming results, that

would be

> useful information.

>

> thanks Will

>

> In a message dated 12/20/01 3:05:08 PM Pacific Standard Time,

> pemachophel2001 writes:

>

>

> >

> > There are literally hundreds of studies cited and abstracted in

the

> > book.

> >

> > Bob

> >

[Guest guest]

That is great what type of pain was the first study and what treatment

Alon

 

-

WMorris116

Thursday, December 20, 2001 6:14 PM

Re: Re: integrative med

Alon - The study is for type II diabetes. We have successfully completed a study on pain which will be published soon. The funding will be there to conduct subsequent studies. There will be highly qualified statisticians participating in the project. Will In a message dated 12/20/01 10:09:37 AM Pacific Standard Time, alonmarcus writes:

----- Los Angeles Free Clinic is interested in doing research on some aspect of diabetes. Were there any remarkable studies worth replicating? >>>I would love to see this occure. Do you know if they want to do type I or type II. Also Bob, since when I was in China our hosiptle had Dr's come from all over China to evaluate their treatment of type I diabeties (which they all published they could), and concluded that TCM can not controle the sugar levels, and only treat complications, what have you found in the litrature reviews. Just curious. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

wrote:

" What I mean is whether the fact that we

know there is a virus present or an autoimmune condition is or should be

of any relevance to our practices?... "

 

Decidedly, since many treatments and herbs are specific as well as

fitting the general patterns and we will probably get better results if

we use them. We distinguish between types of worms in many of our

parasite treatments don't we? This is just bringing our medicine forward

to the age of microscopy and named pathogens. But we continue to treat

the terrain in addition to any specific treatments of pathogens.

 

" ... that is to say that giving an herb that interferes

with the autoimmune process may have inherent value regardless of

whether it fits the TCM pattern. "

 

More likely the appropriate herb already fits the pattern but only some

of the herbs in its category interfere with the autoimmune process. In

that case it is useful to choose using information on the pharmacology of

the herbs, precious little of which is actually taught in OM programs

(including those which teach pharmacology.)

 

So for instance in our theoretical anthrax discussion, several herbs were

mentioned that can kill anthrax in vitro, but only some of them would be

useful in draining fire or clearing toxins. I'd find the formula that

best fits the pattern but might substitute within the category or

supplement with herbs known to kill the anthrax bacillus. I wouldn't use

galangal, despite its anti-anthrax properties (except perhaps in initial

flu-like stages) because it has the wrong energetics. Being a

syncretist, I'd consider even using those relevant western herbs which I

understood energetically within that OM context. And more theoretically,

since I don't have the competence or legal scope of treatment,

supplements or medicines which fit the energetic profile.

 

Karen Vaughan

CreationsGarden

***************************************

Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment.

The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. The opposite

of a profound truth may well be another profound truth. -Niehls Bohr

 

______________

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