Digest Number 816

[Guest guest]

While in China, part of my internship was in an out-patient clinic where

it became apparent the other younger doctors were not that much better

trained than us. (This was both comforting and disturbing) Probally they

had a " BA " in Chinese education terms. We also worked with a doctoral

candidate who had the run of the hospital, did internal medicine (herbs)

etc...

But unlike China, where (in the old days -1995) a better education got

you a bigger apartment, a doctorate is unlikely to " pay-off " . Putting

some kind of OMD,DOM,DR?? in front of your name may help. But there is

the saying in America that the A students make good teachers, " B " make

good clinicians and the " C " students make good money.

 

I once asked an administrator at a school about this. I started with,

" If I had got the OMD/DOM and you paid me $10 an hour more " ... and he

looked at me and I said, " let's just pretend for a minute, OK? "

 

Getting the OMD will probally let many to teach more in the schools, and

possibly allow more access to those mythical hospital jobs. I think the

OMD?DOM is great but I echo Jiang-fu Jiang (?) with who is going to

teach us? Many of my friends want to do it but we all say the same

thing, " Not if its taught in the same way our Masters program was. "

There also has to be a professionalism in the teaching and that means

sitting down with the teachers, Chinese and English-speaking, and figure

out a way to teach the medicine better.

 

I see practitioners very hungry to learn more especially after they have

decompressed from their licencing and have practiced for a while. The

CEU's are supposed to do this but usually are so short little is

learned, it just seems like a requirement.

 

 

 

What is

> wrong with a doctorate that not everyone can achieve and not every school

> can offer? We cannot, as the saying goes, have our cake and it it too. If it

is

> the majority opinion of the field (however that could be known) that we are

> happy to be a trade, then we can have a trade-oriented education, but we

> cannot then demand professional pay and prestige. If we want professional

> pay and prestige, and control of our field by inter-professional acceptance,

> we must have a professional education. In my opinion, we should have

> both, and perhaps even other levels of education and practice, but I think

> the egalitarian urge and the status quo is in control politically. a

[Guest guest]

At 7:23 AM -0800 12/20/01, wrote:

>I think the

>OMD?DOM is great but I echo Jiang-fu Jiang (?) with who is going to

>teach us? Many of my friends want to do it but we all say the same

>thing, " Not if its taught in the same way our Masters program was. "

>There also has to be a professionalism in the teaching and that means

>sitting down with the teachers, Chinese and English-speaking, and figure

>out a way to teach the medicine better.

--

 

Well, Jiang jian-fu would herself be qualified to teach at this

level, as would other Chinese doctors who held professorial positions

at TCM universities in China.

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

Rory,

 

I have not talked with Dr. Jiang in many years. So I don't know the

level of her English fluency. However, I think we need to be careful

here. High academic accomplishment in the PRC does not necessarily

translate into a good teacher here in the U.S. Our schools are already

packed with recently arrived teachers with great Chinese credentials,

but many of the students cannot adequately understand what these

teachers are trying to communicate.

 

In Tibetan Buddhism there is a story about just this issue. A famous

Indian Buddhist pandit, a professor at Nalanda U., was invited by some

Tibetan students to come to Tibet to teach the Dharma. The pandit

accepted the invitation and set off for Tibet with a translator. On

the way, a snow storm or a wild yak or something killed the

translator. The pandit did not speak Tibetan and, therefore, he

couldn't communicate with the locals. He was forced to work as a

shepherd which, as a job in traditional societies, was often reserved

for those with cognitive and communicative disabilities (in Tibetan,

the word is kuk-pa; it's not PC). After all, you don't need to speak

to herd a flock of sheep. So the pandit eked out a livelihood for 10

years in the wilds of Tibet, while the locals remained as ignorant of

the Dharma as before. As it happened, another Indian pandit on his way

to Tibet ran across this shepherd. When he found out who this man

really was, he berated the locals for living 10 years in the presence

of a great guru without having learned anything about the Dharma.

 

Leave alone for the moment that the pandit must've been an ivory tower

scholar if he could not himself learn Tibetan in 10 years, the point

of the story is that teaching requires communication.

If the teacher and the students cannot communicate effectively, then

it doesn't matter how great the teacher's credentials are or how eager

the students are to learn.

 

In my experience, the first duty of the teacher is to communicate. It

is not necessarily to be the world's authority on the subject they are

teaching. I think the above story precisely underscores the necessity

of reading Chinese. I believe it is native (or at least extremely

fluent) English-speakers who can best communicate this material to

other English-speakers. However, those English-speakers need to have

access to authentic, high quality materials, and, in my experience,

reading Chinese is the single, most efficient, best way of gaining

access to that quality of information. In addition, if students were

able to read a little Chinese, they could even communicate a little in

that language with their non-native English-speaking teachers. As it

is now, all too often, communication at our schools is inept despite

the teachers' credentials in China.

 

Bob

 

, Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote:

> At 7:23 AM -0800 12/20/01, wrote:

> >I think the

> >OMD?DOM is great but I echo Jiang-fu Jiang (?) with who is going to

> >teach us? Many of my friends want to do it but we all say the same

> >thing, " Not if its taught in the same way our Masters program was. "

> >There also has to be a professionalism in the teaching and that

means

> >sitting down with the teachers, Chinese and English-speaking, and

figure

> >out a way to teach the medicine better.

> --

>

> Well, Jiang jian-fu would herself be qualified to teach at this

> level, as would other Chinese doctors who held professorial

positions

> at TCM universities in China.

>

> Rory

> --

[Guest guest]

While in China, part of my internship was in an out-patient clinic whereit became apparent the other younger doctors were not that much bettertrained than us. (This was both comforting and disturbing) Probally theyhad a "BA" in Chinese education terms. We also worked with a doctoralcandidate who had the run of the hospital, did internal medicine (herbs)etc... >>>>What was the difference between the doctoral and the general ba levels

Alon

 

-

 

 

Thursday, December 20, 2001 9:23 AM

Re: Digest Number 816

While in China, part of my internship was in an out-patient clinic whereit became apparent the other younger doctors were not that much bettertrained than us. (This was both comforting and disturbing) Probally theyhad a "BA" in Chinese education terms. We also worked with a doctoralcandidate who had the run of the hospital, did internal medicine (herbs)etc... But unlike China, where (in the old days -1995) a better education gotyou a bigger apartment, a doctorate is unlikely to "pay-off". Puttingsome kind of OMD,DOM,DR?? in front of your name may help. But there isthe saying in America that the A students make good teachers, "B" makegood clinicians and the "C" students make good money.I once asked an administrator at a school about this. I started with,"If I had got the OMD/DOM and you paid me $10 an hour more"... and helooked at me and I said, "let's just pretend for a minute, OK?"Getting the OMD will probally let many to teach more in the schools, andpossibly allow more access to those mythical hospital jobs. I think theOMD?DOM is great but I echo Jiang-fu Jiang (?) with who is going toteach us? Many of my friends want to do it but we all say the samething, "Not if its taught in the same way our Masters program was."There also has to be a professionalism in the teaching and that meanssitting down with the teachers, Chinese and English-speaking, and figureout a way to teach the medicine better. I see practitioners very hungry to learn more especially after they havedecompressed from their licencing and have practiced for a while. TheCEU's are supposed to do this but usually are so short little islearned, it just seems like a requirement. What is> wrong with a doctorate that not everyone can achieve and not every school> can offer? We cannot, as the saying goes, have our cake and it it too. If it is> the majority opinion of the field (however that could be known) that we are> happy to be a trade, then we can have a trade-oriented education, but we> cannot then demand professional pay and prestige. If we want professional> pay and prestige, and control of our field by inter-professional acceptance,> we must have a professional education. In my opinion, we should have> both, and perhaps even other levels of education and practice, but I think> the egalitarian urge and the status quo is in control politically. aChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

In my experience, the first duty of the teacher is to communicate. It is not necessarily to be the world's authority on the subject they are teaching.

>>>I often heard from students that they prefer their American teaches

Alon

 

-

pemachophel2001

Thursday, December 20, 2001 11:02 AM

Re: Digest Number 816

Rory,I have not talked with Dr. Jiang in many years. So I don't know the level of her English fluency. However, I think we need to be careful here. High academic accomplishment in the PRC does not necessarily translate into a good teacher here in the U.S. Our schools are already packed with recently arrived teachers with great Chinese credentials, but many of the students cannot adequately understand what these teachers are trying to communicate.In Tibetan Buddhism there is a story about just this issue. A famous Indian Buddhist pandit, a professor at Nalanda U., was invited by some Tibetan students to come to Tibet to teach the Dharma. The pandit accepted the invitation and set off for Tibet with a translator. On the way, a snow storm or a wild yak or something killed the translator. The pandit did not speak Tibetan and, therefore, he couldn't communicate with the locals. He was forced to work as a shepherd which, as a job in traditional societies, was often reserved for those with cognitive and communicative disabilities (in Tibetan, the word is kuk-pa; it's not PC). After all, you don't need to speak to herd a flock of sheep. So the pandit eked out a livelihood for 10 years in the wilds of Tibet, while the locals remained as ignorant of the Dharma as before. As it happened, another Indian pandit on his way to Tibet ran across this shepherd. When he found out who this man really was, he berated the locals for living 10 years in the presence of a great guru without having learned anything about the Dharma. Leave alone for the moment that the pandit must've been an ivory tower scholar if he could not himself learn Tibetan in 10 years, the point of the story is that teaching requires communication. If the teacher and the students cannot communicate effectively, then it doesn't matter how great the teacher's credentials are or how eager the students are to learn.In my experience, the first duty of the teacher is to communicate. It is not necessarily to be the world's authority on the subject they are teaching. I think the above story precisely underscores the necessity of reading Chinese. I believe it is native (or at least extremely fluent) English-speakers who can best communicate this material to other English-speakers. However, those English-speakers need to have access to authentic, high quality materials, and, in my experience, reading Chinese is the single, most efficient, best way of gaining access to that quality of information. In addition, if students were able to read a little Chinese, they could even communicate a little in that language with their non-native English-speaking teachers. As it is now, all too often, communication at our schools is inept despite the teachers' credentials in China.Bob, Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote:> At 7:23 AM -0800 12/20/01, wrote:> >I think the> >OMD?DOM is great but I echo Jiang-fu Jiang (?) with who is going to> >teach us? Many of my friends want to do it but we all say the same> >thing, "Not if its taught in the same way our Masters program was."> >There also has to be a professionalism in the teaching and that means> >sitting down with the teachers, Chinese and English-speaking, and figure> >out a way to teach the medicine better.> --> > Well, Jiang jian-fu would herself be qualified to teach at this > level, as would other Chinese doctors who held professorial positions > at TCM universities in China.> > Rory> --Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Very well put, Bob.

 

My experience of the last twenty-three years is in total agreement with

your statements. The profession was stuck between American teachers

with a poor base of knowledge, limited to the few English textbooks that

were themselves limited, inaccurate, or poorly translated (if at all),

and Chinese instructors with poor English language skills and poorly

translated PRC texts. I remember classes read directly from a Chinese

text with a translator, and no discussion or elaboration on the

material. Totally rote.

 

I think the profession has evolved greatly in the last five years or so,

but with these problems, it is miraculous that Chinese medicine survived

in the West.

 

 

 

On Thursday, December 20, 2001, at 09:02 AM, pemachophel2001 wrote:

 

> High academic accomplishment in the PRC does not necessarily

> translate into a good teacher here in the U.S. Our schools are already

> packed with recently arrived teachers with great Chinese credentials,

> but many of the students cannot adequately understand what these

> teachers are trying to communicate.

>

>

> If the teacher and the students cannot communicate effectively, then

> it doesn't matter how great the teacher's credentials are or how eager

> the students are to learn.

>

> In my experience, the first duty of the teacher is to communicate. It

> is not necessarily to be the world's authority on the subject they are

> teaching. I think the above story precisely underscores the necessity

> of reading Chinese. I believe it is native (or at least extremely

> fluent) English-speakers who can best communicate this material to

> other English-speakers. However, those English-speakers need to have

> access to authentic, high quality materials, and, in my experience,

> reading Chinese is the single, most efficient, best way of gaining

> access to that quality of information. In addition, if students were

> able to read a little Chinese, they could even communicate a little in

> that language with their non-native English-speaking teachers. As it

> is now, all too often, communication at our schools is inept despite

> the teachers' credentials in China.

>

> Bob

>

[Guest guest]

At 5:02 PM +0000 12/20/01, pemachophel2001 wrote:

>I have not talked with Dr. Jiang in many years. So I don't know the

>level of her English fluency. However, I think we need to be careful

>here. High academic accomplishment in the PRC does not necessarily

>translate into a good teacher here in the U.S. Our schools are already

>packed with recently arrived teachers with great Chinese credentials,

>but many of the students cannot adequately understand what these

>teachers are trying to communicate.

>

>In Tibetan Buddhism there is a story...

--

Good story. As it happens, Dr Jiang is a terrific teacher, and when I

studied with her in the late '80s, she communicated a passion for the

medicine as well as helping me to understand it. I believe she has

been speaking English most of her life and for our purposes she was

sufficiently fluent.

 

Rory

 

--

[Guest guest]

Douglas,

 

> While in China,

 

If you've said in the past, I don't

recall. Where were you in China?

 

part of my internship was in an out-patient clinic where

> it became apparent the other younger doctors were not that much

better

> trained than us. (This was both comforting and disturbing) Probally

they

> had a " BA " in Chinese education terms.

 

I can't tell if you're talking here about

young doctors or young medical students.

 

In the clinics in at CDUTCM whenever I've

worked there, there are few to no young

doctors. Only the attending/supervising

doctors, who all tend to be in their 40s,

50s, and 60s and are very experienced, and

the students and interns. These vary greatly

in their levels of training and experience,

and they tend to cycle through the clinical

wards as part of their ongoing training

requirements.

 

Maybe you can clarify what sort of individuals

you are referring to.

 

> There also has to be a professionalism in the teaching and that

means

> sitting down with the teachers, Chinese and English-speaking, and

figure

> out a way to teach the medicine better.

 

Good idea. What do you have in mind?

I'd be interested in taking part in such

a meeting or series of meetings.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Doug -

 

While in China, part of my internship was in an out-patient clinic where

it became apparent the other younger doctors were not that much better

trained than us. (This was both comforting and disturbing) Probally they

had a "BA" in Chinese education terms. We also worked with a doctoral

candidate who had the run of the hospital, did internal medicine (herbs)

etc...

 

This has been my experience as well.

 

I once asked an administrator at a school about this. I started with,

"If I had got the OMD/DOM and you paid me $10 an hour more"... and he

looked at me and I said, "let's just pretend for a minute, OK?"

 

 

I think that was me.. payscale equity can be complex in an institution where the finest doctors from China with 30-40 years of experience reside along side Americans teaching with Master's degrees and five years experience. It is difficult to say what affect an additional two years of training would have on payscales. Fairness and equity amongst faculty is the presiding concern.

Getting the OMD will probally let many to teach more in the schools, and

possibly allow more access to those mythical hospital jobs. I think the

OMD?DOM is great but I echo Jiang-fu Jiang (?) with who is going to

teach us?

 

I think the list I previously published gives a clear indication of a group of individuals who are considered qualified for teaching such programs both here and China. Dr. Jiang's concerns were in relation to ACAOM's policy of allowing institutions to 'bootstrap' American graduates with Master's degrees and Chinese graduates with Bachelor's degrees into the faculty positions for doctoral programs. ACAOM has allowed ten years for this process. Dr. Jiang's concerns remain justified in my opinion.

 

By the way - Dr. Jiang is one of my early significant teachers for formula writing. I found her English more than adequate. She inspired me then and continues to do so.

 

Many of my friends want to do it but we all say the same thing, "Not if its taught in the same way our Masters program was."

There also has to be a professionalism in the teaching and that means

sitting down with the teachers, Chinese and English-speaking, and figure

out a way to teach the medicine better.

 

Now you get to the issue. Our problem with teaching this medicine is often professionals who are content rich and delivery poor (all variations of these possibilities exist in many schools). Stuart Watts has successfully conducted faculty trainings by outsourced education specialists. Emperor's College will be requiring faculty training for those who will teach in the doctoral program -- this training will be done by education specialists.

 

You are right it can't be a super-duper Master's degree with the same people doing the same things.

 

1. educational objectives must be different

2. assessment methods must be different

3. delivery methods may be different due to the principle of academic freedom.

 

The doctorate requires at least 4,000 hours training (minimally 1200 at the doctoral level with a specialty focus). It is a clinical doctorate -- title to be determined.

 

 

Will

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/21/01 10:08:46 AM Pacific Standard Time, alstone writes:

 

 

Does that mean we'll be able to put "OMD" behind our names, rather than

the (dumb) DOM?

 

 

Not likely. The Council of Colleges and ACAOM seek a title which can be trademarked so state licensing agencies do not create a licensee doctorate as in New Mexico and Rhode Island. I disagree with this strategy. This is unfortunate since the OMD has recognition.

Will

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/21/01 10:46:42 AM Pacific Standard Time, writes:

 

 

 

Z'ev's right. there is no way in hell we are getting OMD. The MD's will block it with their lobby.

 

 

The title is academic. MD's have no legal right nor capacity to interfere with the conferance of an academic degree. This is being put on the profession by the council of colleges and the accreditation commission.

 

Will

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/21/01 1:31:36 PM Pacific Standard Time, writes:

 

 

sure they do. the approval of the degree title is granted by the state dept.of education which is subject to political influences. at least that's how its done in Oregon

 

You are right - my bad......Too used to SoCal living. The title has not been engraved in stone as of yet - it does look like it will be the DAOM however.

Will

[Guest guest]

Will wrote:

 

>>>The doctorate requires at least 4,000 hours training (minimally 1200

at the doctoral level with a specialty focus). It is a clinical

doctorate -- title to be determined. <<<

 

Does that mean we'll be able to put " OMD " behind our names, rather than

the (dumb) DOM?

 

Not a rhetorical question. I really hope to avoid the " DOM " designation.

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

[Guest guest]

No, Al, it is even worse:

 

DAOM.

 

 

On Friday, December 21, 2001, at 10:05 AM, Al Stone wrote:

 

> Will wrote:

>

> >>>The doctorate requires at least 4,000 hours training (minimally 1200

> at the doctoral level with a specialty focus). It is a clinical

> doctorate -- title to be determined. <<<

>

> Does that mean we'll be able to put " OMD " behind our names, rather than

> the (dumb) DOM?

>

> Not a rhetorical question. I really hope to avoid the " DOM " designation.

>

> --

> Al Stone L.Ac.

> <AlStone

> http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

>

> Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

>

 

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> No, Al, it is even worse:

>

> DAOM.

 

Z'ev's right. there is no way in hell we are getting OMD. The MD's

will block it with their lobby.

 

[Guest guest]

1 wrote:

 

> Z'ev's right. there is no way in hell we are getting OMD. The MD's

> will block it with their lobby.

 

Damned lobby! Why can't they just have an vestibule like everybody else!

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

[Guest guest]

Along with other things. . . .like removing the chinese language

requirement from the doctorate.

 

 

On Friday, December 21, 2001, at 10:50 AM, WMorris116 wrote:

 

> In a message dated 12/21/01 10:46:42 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> writes:

>

>

>

> Z'ev's right.  there is no way in hell we are getting OMD.  The MD's

> will block it with their lobby.

>

>

>

> The title is academic. MD's have no legal right nor capacity to

> interfere with the conferance of an academic degree. This is being put

> on the profession by the council of colleges and the accreditation

> commission.

>

> Will

>

 

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/21/01 4:49:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, writes:

 

 

I wonder if it will be the same in every state. The master's title is different in every state and this is because different state DOE's go for different titles. PCOM gives the MTOM, while OCOM gave me a MAcOM

 

 

Title for the Master's was a school decision here in California. The Doctorate will be trademarked by either the Council of Colleges, the Accreditation Commission, or both.

 

Factors influencing titles include US Dept of education, state dept of education, licensing bodies, and schools.

Will

[Guest guest]

, Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote:

>

>

> 1 wrote:

>

> > Z'ev's right. there is no way in hell we are getting OMD. The

MD's

> > will block it with their lobby.

>

> Damned lobby! Why can't they just have an vestibule like everybody

else!

 

 

Really looking forward to " integration " !

 

Question: Does anyone know which exterior releasing herbs, if any,

have antihistamine-like properties? The reason I ask, is that during

the few years of my practice, I've heard complaints from male patients

who have taken patent formulas such as Bi Yuan Pian regarding

difficulty in urination. At first I did not give it much thought.

However, recently I've had the same complaint from a pt with some W/H

symptoms similar to a Cang er zi san syndrome for whom I wrote an rx

to fit the pattern.

 

I did a search on the web and found a site where it warns against the

use of antihistamines and BPH. Here's what it said at:

(www.prostate90.com/prostate_cancer/antihistamines.html),

" Antihistamines (AHs) are definitely a no no for individuals with BPH.

They restrict urinary flow. As a matter of fact, some surgery patients

are prescribed AHs to stop the " dribbles " .

 

I can speculate that the patent rx might've been mixed with some w/m

medication. But my rx did not have any herbs of stringent nature, nor

does my pt have any urination difficulty hx.

 

Any thoughts on this? could it just be a coincidence?

 

Fernando

[Guest guest]

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

 

> >

>

> The title is academic. MD's have no legal right nor capacity to interfere

> with the conferance of an academic degree.

 

sure they do. the approval of the degree title is granted by the state

dept.of education which is subject to political influences. at least

that's how its done in Oregon

 

[Guest guest]

, " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote:

 

> who have taken patent formulas such as Bi Yuan Pian regarding

> difficulty in urination. At first I did not give it much thought.

> However, recently I've had the same complaint from a pt with some W/H

> symptoms similar to a Cang er zi san syndrome for whom I wrote an rx

> to fit the pattern.

>

>

> Any thoughts on this? could it just be a coincidence?

>

> Fernando

 

two thoughts. some patent medicines may contain antihistamines. lots

of herbs may have antihistamine properties, especially those for

exterior wind. In fact, I think cang er zi does. from a TCM

persepctive, these herbs are usually drying, warming and ascending, all

properties which may disturb urination. try combining with herbs like

fu ling, which promote urination and also transform phlegm.

 

[Guest guest]

it makes sense. Thanks!

 

Fernando

 

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

> , " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote:

>

> > who have taken patent formulas such as Bi Yuan Pian regarding

> > difficulty in urination. At first I did not give it much thought.

> > However, recently I've had the same complaint from a pt with some

W/H

> > symptoms similar to a Cang er zi san syndrome for whom I wrote an

rx

> > to fit the pattern.

> >

> >

> > Any thoughts on this? could it just be a coincidence?

> >

> > Fernando

>

> two thoughts. some patent medicines may contain antihistamines.

lots

> of herbs may have antihistamine properties, especially those for

> exterior wind. In fact, I think cang er zi does. from a TCM

> persepctive, these herbs are usually drying, warming and ascending,

all

> properties which may disturb urination. try combining with herbs

like

> fu ling, which promote urination and also transform phlegm.

>

 

[Guest guest]

Fernando,

 

Alon was asking for an example of trying to work out the CM

description of a Western med. I suggest we take you question and work

on it from this approach. I'll start the ball rolling by suggesting

that Western antihistamines aggravate or may even cause prostatism due

to their ability to scatter the qi. Since, in CM, the flow of urine

is dependent on the power of the qi, a medicine that strongly

disperses or scatters the qi might damage the kidney and bladder qi

mechanism. If that's the hypothesis, does all other clinical (not

pharmacodynamic) information about antihistamines fit this hypothesis

when that information is reframed into CM terminology and the four

examinations?

 

I'm going to also suggest that we talk about a specific antihistamine

rather than the whole class. How about Benadryl (diphenhydraine)?

 

Anyone want to play?

 

(Sorry to say, I'll be out of town till the 28th. So I won't be able

to join the discussion till then. is there some way you can send

me this particular thread so it is waiting for me on the 28th? Just a

thought.)

 

, " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote:

> , Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote:

> >

> >

> > 1 wrote:

> >

> > > Z'ev's right. there is no way in hell we are getting OMD. The

> MD's

> > > will block it with their lobby.

> >

> > Damned lobby! Why can't they just have an vestibule like

everybody

> else!

>

>

> Really looking forward to " integration " !

>

> Question: Does anyone know which exterior releasing herbs, if any,

> have antihistamine-like properties? The reason I ask, is that during

> the few years of my practice, I've heard complaints from male

patients

> who have taken patent formulas such as Bi Yuan Pian regarding

> difficulty in urination. At first I did not give it much thought.

> However, recently I've had the same complaint from a pt with some

W/H

> symptoms similar to a Cang er zi san syndrome for whom I wrote an rx

> to fit the pattern.

>

> I did a search on the web and found a site where it warns against

the

> use of antihistamines and BPH. Here's what it said at:

> (www.prostate90.com/prostate_cancer/antihistamines.html),

> " Antihistamines (AHs) are definitely a no no for individuals with

BPH.

> They restrict urinary flow. As a matter of fact, some surgery

patients

> are prescribed AHs to stop the " dribbles " .

>

> I can speculate that the patent rx might've been mixed with some w/m

> medication. But my rx did not have any herbs of stringent nature,

nor

> does my pt have any urination difficulty hx.

>

> Any thoughts on this? could it just be a coincidence?

>

> Fernando

[Guest guest]

, WMorris116@A... wrote:

 

>

> You are right - my bad......Too used to SoCal living.

> The title has not been engraved in stone as of yet - it does look like it

> will be the DAOM however.

 

 

I wonder if it will be the same in every state. The master's title is

different in every state and this is because different state DOE's go

for different titles. PCOM gives the MTOM, while OCOM gave me a MAcOM

 

[Guest guest]

are we talking patent meds. Several have head antihistamines in them

Alon

 

-

fbernall

Friday, December 21, 2001 1:07 PM

Re: Digest Number 816

, Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote:> > > 1 wrote:> > > Z'ev's right. there is no way in hell we are getting OMD. The MD's> > will block it with their lobby.> > Damned lobby! Why can't they just have an vestibule like everybody else!Really looking forward to "integration"!Question: Does anyone know which exterior releasing herbs, if any, have antihistamine-like properties? The reason I ask, is that during the few years of my practice, I've heard complaints from male patients who have taken patent formulas such as Bi Yuan Pian regarding difficulty in urination. At first I did not give it much thought. However, recently I've had the same complaint from a pt with some W/H symptoms similar to a Cang er zi san syndrome for whom I wrote an rx to fit the pattern.I did a search on the web and found a site where it warns against the use of antihistamines and BPH. Here's what it said at: (www.prostate90.com/prostate_cancer/antihistamines.html), "Antihistamines (AHs) are definitely a no no for individuals with BPH. They restrict urinary flow. As a matter of fact, some surgery patients are prescribed AHs to stop the "dribbles". I can speculate that the patent rx might've been mixed with some w/m medication. But my rx did not have any herbs of stringent nature, nor does my pt have any urination difficulty hx.Any thoughts on this? could it just be a coincidence? FernandoChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.