Prof Pay

[Guest guest]

Dear Bob and

 

I apologize for misconstruing the discussion. I responded to what now

appears to be fragment of it. My remarks were addressed to the income

level of the entire profession

 

>While I agree that what everyone can do in most cases is a good job at a fair price, the idea that demand is not increased or decreased by perceived value will be something of a shock to everyone paying for PR, advertising and marketing.>Bob

 

If you've practiced for a while or been in another business (and I know

you have) very little about buyer behavior should be a shock. Remember

P.T. Barnum.I agree that perceived value strongly affects demand. But

the public perception is is unaffected by the arcane (to them) differences

of the internal educational policies of the profession. First, the public has

little or no awareness of them. Second it has no basis on which to evaluate

them and is aware of that.

 

>there is only an abundant supply of teachers, thus lowering pay, because schools and students are willing to accept unqualified >teachers.

I don't think that students are willing to accept them.

 

>If supply was reduced to those who are truly qualified, then >salaries would rise to reflect the true scarcity of the resource.

Perhaps. But we ought to define the terms of proper salary

and truly qualified before we pursue this one. In most of the

venues I've read about the issue of qualifications for teaching

I have seen little or nothing about pedagogical method or

ability. Teaching is a separate profession and set of abilities

from those of practice and scholarship.

>However many students are just there to learn a trade, so they could care less. They want the license and the education is of secondary >concern. Schools know this and thus get away with it.

 

Unlike purveyance of plumbing supplies the business of education

carries some moral and statutory obligations. It is incumbent

upon the schools to select students who desire a profession rather

than a union card. And the 3 - 4 years the student is exposed to the

curriculum, faculty and clinic is the opportunity to inculcate an active

understanding of professionalism; i.e. the meaning of the phrase "art

and practice of..." or the use of a common body of knowledges and skills

to perform in ambiguous or unprecedented situations.

 

>Also, tuition would have to rise dramatically to accomodate higher teacher pay. This would reduce the number of students and cause quite a few schools to >close. Would this be a bad thing is the question that is begged?>Todd

 

Based on the assumption that the new required qualifications result in

better teachers, I think that in the long run a shake out would increase the number of prospective students. That would support the increase

in pay. We may be surprised how many good and qualified teachers there

are when sufficient pay enables them to spend the truly necessary time

developing their courses and teaching methods.

 

I am concerned that our profession is being put beyond the reach of an

increasing number of socio-economic strata. I would hate to see the OMD

(or whatever it ends up as) go the way of the MD and become the province

of priviledged white men. However, from a cynical perspective that might

be the way to get a raise.

 

JOE

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " Joseph Balensi " <jlb@t...> wrote:

 

Teaching is a separate profession and set of abilities

> from those of practice and scholarship.

 

I think Bob has addressed this at length in several recent posts.

 

[Guest guest]

Joe,

I understand your concern, and worry about these things as well. But

looking at the medical schools, almost everyone takes out student loans,

in the knowledge that they will have to work hard to pay them back (for

better or for worse). UCSD medical school here in San Diego is racially

and socio-economically diverse, as is Pacific College of Oriental

Medicine,

 

 

On Friday, December 21, 2001, at 09:32 PM, Joseph Balensi wrote:

>

>  

> I am concerned that our profession is  being put beyond the reach of an

> increasing number of socio-economic strata.  I would hate to see the OMD

> (or whatever it ends up as) go the way of the MD and become the province

> of  priviledged white men.  However, from a cynical  perspective that

> might

> be the way to get a raise.

>  

> JOE

>  

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>  

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[Guest guest]

This also seems somewhat up to the individual, and, yes, mostly for those

that have their loans paid

off.  I see practitioners that charge fairly low but have two or three

patients going at a time.  Then higher

priced ones that give undivided attention.  I also know someone who

charges very high, traveling to the

coasts to treat wealthy patients, and, then turns around and takes

extended time to donate their services to

the indigenous poor.

 

Kit

 

 

At 05:51 PM 12/22/01 -0800, you wrote:

Joe,

I understand your concern, and worry about these things as well.  But

looking at the medical schools, almost everyone takes out student loans,

in the knowledge that they will have to work hard to pay them back (for

better or for worse).  UCSD medical school here in San Diego is racially

and socio-economically diverse, as is Pacific College of Oriental

Medicine, 

 

 

On Friday, December 21, 2001, at 09:32 PM, Joseph Balensi wrote:

 

 

I am concerned that our profession is  being put beyond the reach of an

 

increasing number of socio-economic strata.  I would hate to see the OMD

 

(or whatever it ends up as) go the way of the MD and become the province

 

of  priviledged white men.  However, from a cynical  perspective that

might

be the way to get a raise.

 

JOE

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Zev,

 

That's comforting news. My view is skewed by living in AZ which is as

cosmopolitan as Bakersfield (Barstow might be a closer comparison) and my

association with the U of A. I'm not arguing for lower

educationalstandards.

I'm saying that it ill serves a diverse society to have a culturally

homogenous

healing profession. At the school I attended in the Southwest we were

exhorted

to examination of our cultural prejudices in the service of understanding

Asian

thought. The samefolks who delivered those exhortations routinely judged

patients of Hispanic, blue-collar, working poor, underclass and mentally ill

strata

by the standards and misnomers of their own cultural background. Often with

significant detriment to the healing work in result. This phenomenon has

been well

documented in the allopathic system by other fields for many years.

 

Even in mainline colleges and universities which have minority student

retention programs the retention rate is dropping. In addition minorities

tend (more thatn members of the dominant Euro-American culture) to take

degrees in business, science and education and not fields with ambiguous

career opportunities and lower earning potentials. Add the influence of

cultural expectations and values on a decision about large loans and the

choices of field of study differ accordingly. Finally, remember that all

of

US OM schools are private. My wife's tuition for her MSW from a state

university was a third of mine for the MSOM. If the schools accepted a

smaller

profit margin they could create a far better education and make it

accessible to a

significant number of qualified students who are increasingly losing access.

 

We are also in danger of losing a great deal of the heart of the medicine if

we let apprenticeship programs cease to be an entry path. Experiential

learning of Qi is priceless. But education in Qi is a another long topic.

I

believe that we can create high quality curricula which would produce high

quality practitioners and still attend to the diversity issue. But it

requires

awareness on the part of the educators and more importantly, it requires the

deire to do somethingn about it.

 

After all this, I need to say that I'm in big support of a raise for

instructors. To a

large degree we get what we pay for. We might also look at labor practices

of the

US schools as an obstacle to obtaining goodteachers. For instance, writing

job

descriptions that are clearly designed to fit a foreign candidate doesn't

make earn

good will from the qualifiedcitizen's. Loading the alien instructors with

five and six

graduate level courses per semester for $24,000US a year on a 3 year

contract (half-way

to citizenship - good leverage for the employer) earns the ill will of both

groups. And the

work load guarantees some of those courses will be taught poorly.

Forbidding a teacher

to teach at other schools when it isn't in their contract is poor recruiting

technique as well.

 

 

 

High standards are indisputably necessary but they need to be based on what

professional performance demands and not politics, hubris or the bottom

lines of the schools.

Joe

 

 

Joe,

I understand your concern, and worry about these things as well. But

looking at the medical schools, almost everyone takes out student loans,

in the knowledge that they will have to work hard to pay them back (for

better or for worse). UCSD medical school here in San Diego is racially

and socio-economically diverse, as is Pacific College of Oriental

Medicine,

 

 

On Friday, December 21, 2001, at 09:32 PM, Joseph Balensi wrote:

[Guest guest]

, " Joseph Balensi " <jlb@t...> wrote:

Finally, remember that all

> of

> US OM schools are private.

 

Not all, OCOM is nonprofit and I believe Yosan is also.

 

[Guest guest]

So is NIAOM and perhaps some others. Non-profit status doesn't mean

public - government institution.

All of these schools are private sector endeavors.

 

JOE

 

Message: 9

Mon, 24 Dec 2001 18:18:48 -0000

" 1 " <

Re: Prof Pay

 

, " Joseph Balensi " <jlb@t...> wrote:

Finally, remember that all

> of

> US OM schools are private.

 

Not all, OCOM is nonprofit and I believe Yosan is also.

 

[Guest guest]

, " Joseph Balensi " <jlb@t...> wrote:

>

> So is NIAOM and perhaps some others. Non-profit status doesn't mean

> public - government institution.

> All of these schools are private sector endeavors.

>

>

sorry, I misunderstood your point. Do you think the government would

do a better job?