dr. title

[Guest guest]

, Kit <kitcurtin@e...> wrote:

It is the first time ever that I have heard that it is illegal to

address a PhD as Doctor.

Actually I'd lay any odds it is equally illegal in Oregon (and probably

other states) for a nurse (or PA) to allow him- or her-self to be addressed

as Doctor, even if that Nurse has a Ph.D

It is inherently misleading. Why would a patient call you Doctor,

anyway? Some just will, as will reps from product and insurance companies.

In OR, you must correct them. If you happen to be a PhD, you can

tell them that your doctorate is not in medicine. In most cases,

the intimacy of private practice allows one to elude scrutiny on this point.

However, the acu who lost his license was stung, I think, meaning he was

set up by someone he thought was a patient, but was really acting to provide

evidence for the board.

The other reason someone might call you doctor is because you portray

yourself as such. This can be because you use the term on your professional

publications or because you allow your office staff to refer to you as

doctor or because your voicemail refers to you as doctor. Now why

would someone who does not have a doctoral degree in medicine call himself

or herself a doctor? In some case, these people don't even have

doctoral degrees of any kind. Their purpose is to elevate their

stature in the eyes of the buying public. I have known a number of

people who do this. By and large, they are ignorant that what they

do is illegal in every state.

However, say you do have a doctoral degree of some kind. Does

it help your practice if your patients know you have advanced training

in computer science? Probably not. So why bother to call yourself

doctor unless it has some benefit. If you do not explicitly point

out that your degree is in computers, then at least some, if not most,

of your patients will assume you have doctoral level training in medicine.

I think this is deceptive. I have found many people in this group

to also be ignorant of what they are doing and why they do it. Others

know exactly what they are doing and I guess, in CA, it is not illegal

or at least not enforced. In fact, the woman at the CA board was

very nonchalant when she mentioned that a lot of people call their L.Ac's

"Dr." and this was not a board priority. I suspect part of this difference

is due to the burden in Ca of regulating 5000 acus versus the 300 in OR.

There are lot more important things to attend to.

You mention thought police, but I think it may be the L.Ac who is playing

with someone's mind when they misrepresent themselves this way. The government

is forcing its licensee to be honest in his public dealings. In theory,

that's one of the few acceptable functions of government - to protect from

fraud. I suppose the question is begged as to who is harmed by this

fraud. I hate laws that penalize for ethics or morals when no one

is harmed. To be honest, I am not sure who is harmed by this.

The fear has always been that patients will not go to their doctor if they

think their acupuncturist is trained to make all necessary medical decisions.

Studies have shown this to be unfounded. So what it really comes

down is territoriality of MD's, DC's, etc. If everything is on the

up and up, then I see no harm. But everyone needs to question themselves.

If you are being deceptive to increase your stature, that does not seem

to be a good foundation for a dr/pt relationship in the long run.

Finally, it certainly diminishes the value of our future doctoral degree

if acupuncturists just call themselves doctor and no one cares.

-- ,

 

 

FAX:

 

[Guest guest]

At 6:39 PM -0800 12/28/01,

Now why would someone who does not have a

doctoral degree in medicine call himself or herself a doctor? In

some case, these people don't even have doctoral degrees of any

kind. Their purpose is to elevate their stature in the eyes

of the buying public. I have known a number of people who do

this. By and large, they are ignorant that what they do is

illegal in every state.

--

This must a peculiarly American obsession. In Britain physicians

don't necessarily have doctoral degrees, and often junior doctors

often have only a bachelors, yet they are physicians and are called

doctor. According to Webster's, one of the several meanings of doctor

is " one skilled or specializing in healing arts " . It doesn't

mention biomedicine as the sole qualification, and there is no good

reason why we should see those trained in bio-medicine as the only

one's qualified to use this title. Your association of the title

doctor with a degree is a restriction not inherent in the word

itself.

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

for a nurse (or PA) to allow him- or her-self to be addressed as Doctor, even if that Nurse has a Ph.D

>>>With a PhD I bad you its not. Although they never do

Alon

 

-

cha

Friday, December 28, 2001 8:39 PM

dr. title

, Kit <kitcurtin@e...> wrote: It is the first time ever that I have heard that it is illegal to address a PhD as Doctor. Actually I'd lay any odds it is equally illegal in Oregon (and probably other states) for a nurse (or PA) to allow him- or her-self to be addressed as Doctor, even if that Nurse has a Ph.D It is inherently misleading. Why would a patient call you Doctor, anyway? Some just will, as will reps from product and insurance companies. In OR, you must correct them. If you happen to be a PhD, you can tell them that your doctorate is not in medicine. In most cases, the intimacy of private practice allows one to elude scrutiny on this point. However, the acu who lost his license was stung, I think, meaning he was set up by someone he thought was a patient, but was really acting to provide evidence for the board. The other reason someone might call you doctor is because you portray yourself as such. This can be because you use the term on your professional publications or because you allow your office staff to refer to you as doctor or because your voicemail refers to you as doctor. Now why would someone who does not have a doctoral degree in medicine call himself or herself a doctor? In some case, these people don't even have doctoral degrees of any kind. Their purpose is to elevate their stature in the eyes of the buying public. I have known a number of people who do this. By and large, they are ignorant that what they do is illegal in every state. However, say you do have a doctoral degree of some kind. Does it help your practice if your patients know you have advanced training in computer science? Probably not. So why bother to call yourself doctor unless it has some benefit. If you do not explicitly point out that your degree is in computers, then at least some, if not most, of your patients will assume you have doctoral level training in medicine. I think this is deceptive. I have found many people in this group to also be ignorant of what they are doing and why they do it. Others know exactly what they are doing and I guess, in CA, it is not illegal or at least not enforced. In fact, the woman at the CA board was very nonchalant when she mentioned that a lot of people call their L.Ac's "Dr." and this was not a board priority. I suspect part of this difference is due to the burden in Ca of regulating 5000 acus versus the 300 in OR. There are lot more important things to attend to. You mention thought police, but I think it may be the L.Ac who is playing with someone's mind when they misrepresent themselves this way. The government is forcing its licensee to be honest in his public dealings. In theory, that's one of the few acceptable functions of government - to protect from fraud. I suppose the question is begged as to who is harmed by this fraud. I hate laws that penalize for ethics or morals when no one is harmed. To be honest, I am not sure who is harmed by this. The fear has always been that patients will not go to their doctor if they think their acupuncturist is trained to make all necessary medical decisions. Studies have shown this to be unfounded. So what it really comes down is territoriality of MD's, DC's, etc. If everything is on the up and up, then I see no harm. But everyone needs to question themselves. If you are being deceptive to increase your stature, that does not seem to be a good foundation for a dr/pt relationship in the long run. Finally, it certainly diminishes the value of our future doctoral degree if acupuncturists just call themselves doctor and no one cares. -- Chinese Herbs FAX: Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

"one skilled or specializing in healing arts".

>>>That is the point. In CA MD are the only ones that can call themselves physicians even though a physician is suppose to be an educator, what a joke. Also see below things are never simple. Explain this with TCM

Alon

 

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-

Rory Kerr

Friday, December 28, 2001 10:36 PM

Re: dr. title

 

At 6:39 PM -0800 12/28/01,

Now why would someone who does not have a doctoral degree in medicine call himself or herself a doctor? In some case, these people don't even have doctoral degrees of any kind. Their purpose is to elevate their stature in the eyes of the buying public. I have known a number of people who do this. By and large, they are ignorant that what they do is illegal in every state.

--

This must a peculiarly American obsession. In Britain physicians don't necessarily have doctoral degrees, and often junior doctors often have only a bachelors, yet they are physicians and are called doctor. According to Webster's, one of the several meanings of doctor is "one skilled or specializing in healing arts". It doesn't mention biomedicine as the sole qualification, and there is no good reason why we should see those trained in bio-medicine as the only one's qualified to use this title. Your association of the title doctor with a degree is a restriction not inherent in the word itself.

 

Rory-- Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

, Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote:

Your association of the title doctor

> with a degree is a restriction not inherent in the word itself.

>

 

 

It is inherent in the modern american understanding. Context is

everything.

 

[Guest guest]

Doctor of Medicine came rather late in the game.....via ancient Greece.

 

 

It is and American obsession....... of the American Medical Association

(AMA), a

particularly strong lobby in this country that manages to squash any

number

a motions that might be beneficial to the public. Then,

we've got the FDA (Food

& Drug Administration) constantly trying to meddle in the vitamin and

supplement...and

herb taking ability of the American public.

It makes it look like our governing bodies think we're too stupid to make

our own

decisions.

And, it often looks like it, if you would see some of the mfr's warning

labels

on our products.

What we are, unfortunately, is an idiotically litigious society (the new

brass ring!!?).

......ends us back at the beginning....suing over/legislating a title (not

particularly a misrepresentation).

 

Kit

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

At 11:36 PM 12/28/01 -0500, you wrote:

At 6:39 PM -0800 12/28/01,

Now why would someone who does not have a

doctoral degree in medicine call himself or herself a doctor?  In some

case, these people don't even have doctoral degrees of any kind. 

Their purpose is to elevate their stature in the eyes of the buying

public.  I have known a number of people who do this.  By and large, they

are ignorant that what they do is illegal in every

state.--

This must a peculiarly American obsession. In Britain physicians don't

necessarily have doctoral degrees, and often junior doctors often have

only a bachelors, yet they are physicians and are called doctor.

According to Webster's, one of the several meanings of doctor is

" one skilled or specializing in healing arts " . It doesn't

mention biomedicine as the sole qualification, and there is no good

reason why we should see those trained in bio-medicine as the only one's

qualified to use this title. Your association of the title doctor with a

degree is a restriction not inherent in the word itself.

 

Rory

 

--

 

 

Sponsor

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

professional services, including board approved online continuing

education.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

At 8:07 AM +0000 12/29/01, 1 wrote:

>, Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote:

> Your association of the title doctor

>> with a degree is a restriction not inherent in the word itself.

>>

>

>

>It is inherent in the modern american understanding. Context is

>everything.

--

 

The context for the modern American understanding of the title doctor

is a distortion of meaning fostered by narrow special interests.

Perhaps we should reclaim the meaning of our language rather than go

along with a false understanding of it. According to your report form

Oregan, we are being prevented from legitimately conferring and using

the title doctor by corrupt political arrangements.

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

 

I totally agree that it would be highly unethical to carry over a title

from one

area of expertise to another! The dishonestly in it should not go

unheeded nor

unpunished. I guess I thought that seemed

obvious. I do not doubt that it is

illegal nationwide. It is in TX.

 

When I spoke of " thought crime " it was in reference to

" Big Brother " & the " thought police "

from George Orwell's book " 1984 " . I was being

facetious....sorry.

 

Kit

 

 

 

 

At 06:39 PM 12/28/01 -0800, you wrote:

, Kit

<kitcurtin@e...> wrote:

 

It is the first time ever that I have heard that it is illegal to

address a PhD as Doctor.

 

Actually I'd lay any odds it is equally illegal in Oregon (and probably

other states) for a nurse (or PA) to allow him- or her-self to be

addressed as Doctor, even if that Nurse has a Ph.D

 

It is inherently misleading.  Why would a patient call you Doctor,

anyway?  Some just will, as will reps from product and insurance

companies.  In OR, you must correct them.  If you happen to be a PhD, you

can tell them that your doctorate is not in medicine.  In most cases, the

intimacy of private practice allows one to elude scrutiny on this point. 

However, the acu who lost his license was stung, I think, meaning he was

set up by someone he thought was a patient, but was really acting to

provide evidence for the board.

 

The other reason someone might call you doctor is because you portray

yourself as such.  This can be because you use the term on your

professional publications or because you allow your office staff to refer

to you as doctor or because your voicemail refers to you as doctor.  Now

why would someone who does not have a doctoral degree in medicine call

himself or herself a doctor?  In some case, these people don't even

have doctoral degrees of any kind.  Their purpose is to elevate their

stature in the eyes of the buying public.  I have known a number of

people who do this.  By and large, they are ignorant that what they do is

illegal in every state.

 

However, say you do have a doctoral degree of some kind.  Does it help

your practice if your patients know you have advanced training in

computer science?  Probably not.  So why bother to call yourself doctor

unless it has some benefit.  If you do not explicitly point out that your

degree is in computers, then at least some, if not most, of your patients

will assume you have doctoral level training in medicine.  I think this

is deceptive.  I have found many people in this group to also be ignorant

of what they are doing and why they do it.  Others know exactly what they

are doing and I guess, in CA, it is not illegal or at least not

enforced.  In fact, the woman at the CA board was very nonchalant when

she mentioned that a lot of people call their L.Ac's " Dr. " and

this was not a board priority.  I suspect part of this difference is due

to the burden in Ca of regulating 5000 acus versus the 300 in OR.  There

are lot more important things to attend to.

 

You mention thought police, but I think it may be the L.Ac who is playing

with someone's mind when they misrepresent themselves this way. The

government is forcing its licensee to be honest in his public dealings. 

In theory, that's one of the few acceptable functions of government - to

protect from fraud.  I suppose the question is begged as to who is harmed

by this fraud.  I hate laws that penalize for ethics or morals when no

one is harmed.  To be honest, I am not sure who is harmed by this.  The

fear has always been that patients will not go to their doctor if they

think their acupuncturist is trained to make all necessary medical

decisions.  Studies have shown this to be unfounded.  So what it really

comes down is territoriality of MD's, DC's, etc.  If everything is on the

up and up, then I see no harm.  But everyone needs to question

themselves.  If you are being deceptive to increase your stature, that

does not seem to be a good foundation for a dr/pt relationship in the

long run.  Finally, it certainly diminishes the value of our future

doctoral degree if acupuncturists just call themselves doctor and no one

cares. 

 

-- ,

L.Ac. , Chinese Herb

Academy

 

 

FAX:  (413)

669-8859

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

professional services, including board approved online continuing

education.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

, Kit <kitcurtin@e...> wrote:

 

Then, we've got the FDA (Food & Drug Administration) constantly trying

to meddle in the vitamin and supplement...and herb taking ability of

the American public.

: Actually under current law, the FDA has very little power over

the supplement industry. Current law has basically played right into

the hands of corporations who want to hawk herbs directly to consumers

without the intermediary of trained healthcare professionals. The

average consumer now thinks that experts are not needed to properly

take herbs. All you need is a clever product label and a minimum wage

sales clerk to guide you and presto - it's medicine time! I am all for

herbs being freely available, but I want all indications removed from

labels and want nonmedical personnel banned from giving medical advice.

People should be coming to see us for herbs, not self-medicating. Its

one thing to take echinacea and vitamin C for a cold. I don't think

people should be treating their own heart disease, though.

>

[Guest guest]

, Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote:

 

> >

> >

> >It is inherent in the modern american understanding. Context is

> >everything.

> --

>

> The context for the modern American understanding of the title doctor

> is a distortion of meaning fostered by narrow special interests.

> Perhaps we should reclaim the meaning of our language rather than go

> along with a false understanding of it.

 

Words carry conventional meanings for the uncritical masses. We can do

whatever we want to reclaim a word. Public perception will not

necessarily change,at least not in our lifetimes. People will still

assume their doctors have been trained in modern biomedicine and it is

incumbent upon us to be clear about what we do and how we are trained,

regardless of what title we can legally use.

 

According to your report form

> Oregan, we are being prevented from legitimately conferring and using

> the title doctor by corrupt political arrangements.

 

Ignorant,irrational,shortsighted, but not corrupt. I believe those who

support this position are well-intentioned for the most part. They

believe they are protecting the public.

 

[Guest guest]

<but I want all indications removed from

labels and want nonmedical personnel banned from giving medical

advice.>

 

....excellent idea....

 

<Actually under current law, the FDA has very little power over

 

the supplement industry.>

 

This is good to know since I sometimes get alerts to write to

my Congressmen regarding the FDA's wanting to ban this or that.

I have also had the FDA, in Dallas, open my mail containing supplements

 

from Europe. (They insert a little warning when they're finished

 

inspecting and send it on.)

 

<corporations who want to hawk herbs directly to consumers>

 

Do you know who these corps are? Are they subsidiaries of larger

 

recognizable corps? Or do they have a board or council (like the

 

dairy industry) that puts up funds for lobbying, etc.

 

 

As far as self-treating, that's probably a whole other can of worms that

 

I'm fairly uncomfortable addressing. I have

problems with balancing free choice, rights, the high cost of

health care, the number of uninsured in this country and the fact that

99% (my figure) of those

wanting to self-treat don't have the time, gumption, nor wherewithal to

do the proper research.

Hmmm, did I just take a side, after all?!

What about the reciprocal to....when a small percentage gets a substance

removed due to a bad side

effect/outcome due to misuse/abuse...whereas many more might be helped by

leaving it available?

I would not want to lose a loved one to such a substance, in such a way,

but where's the line?

Where's personal responsiblity in these cases? My guess is:

somewhere in the same ethers as

corporate responsiblility. Ugh....another can o'

worms! (long sigh)

 

Anyway....

 

Are you on the advisory panel (or is it list of authors), the same as

Guohui Liu, who are putting

together recommendations/guidelines for herbs? As I understand, this is

to be referred to by government

agencies (do I have that right?) so that herbs are not listed as

dangerous due to misuse or

abuse, including those herbs now listed thusly. Is it still a

couple of years in the offing?

 

 

Thanks,

Kit

 

 

 

 

 

At 04:53 PM 12/29/01 +0000, you wrote:

, Kit

<kitcurtin@e...> wrote:

 

Then, we've got the FDA (Food & Drug Administration) constantly

trying

to meddle in the vitamin and supplement...and herb taking ability of

 

the American public.

:  Actually under current law, the FDA has very little power over

 

the supplement industry.  Current law has basically played right into

 

the hands of corporations who want to hawk herbs directly to consumers

 

without the intermediary of trained healthcare professionals.  The

average consumer now thinks that experts are not needed to properly

take herbs.  All you need is a clever product label and a minimum wage

 

sales clerk to guide you and presto - it's medicine time!  I am all for

 

herbs being freely available, but I want all indications removed from

 

labels and want nonmedical personnel banned from giving medical advice. 

 

People should be coming to see us for herbs, not self-medicating.  Its

 

one thing to take echinacea and vitamin C for a cold.  I don't think

 

people should be treating their own heart disease, though.

>

 

 

 

 

Sponsor

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of

professional services, including board approved online continuing

education.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

From Todd: I want all indications removed from

labels and want nonmedical personnel banned from giving medical advice.

People should be coming to see us for herbs, not self-medicating.

 

From Stephen: I have spent many years creating OTC herbal products. For

our first product we spent four years developing raw material standards

(both fermentation and a comparative analysis of plant quality from various

growing areas), quality control methods and standards (including analytical

methods, reference standards, and), extraction process research,

pre-clinical lab research, and two double blind, placebo controlled,

randomized human studies. The result is an athlethic recovery and

performance-capacity-enhancing product that has shown to more than double

the clearance of lactic acid from the blood. It would seem absurd for

people to have to see their acupuncturist in order to get a bottle.

 

From Todd: Its one thing to take echinacea and vitamin C for a cold. I

don't think

people should be treating their own heart disease, though.

 

From Stephen: The Dietary Supplement Health Education Act (DSHEA) has tried

to do what you are suggesting, draw the line for self-medication with herbs

where there is a disease condition involved. However, there is a

substantial gray area between the two categories of health. This is where

any legislation will fail to meet everyone's definition of what a

self-limiting disease actually is.

 

Another issue that will continue to deter your desire for control of herbal

meds is the lack of demonstrable expertise with herbal medicine by all those

practicing under an acupuncture license. Not only is the training

inadequate for acu's to claim such expertise, but the lack of not only good

research, or in fact ANY research indicating that LAc's can successfully

treat medical conditions, would need to be changed.

 

I have also done research along the lines mentioned above on both the

treatment and prevention of cold and flu using two different formulas

related to different aspects of immune function, as well as a formula for

allergy, and have several other projects targeting other clinical end points

underway. The only way I have been able to obtain the funds to do this

research, and it hasn't been easy, is based on a potential return on what is

considered an investment, not a pursuit of purely scientific curiosity.

None of these funds have come from the acupuncture community, except my own.

 

Stephen Morrissey OMD

Botanica BioScience Corp

P.O. Box 1477

Ojai, CA 93024

Ph: 805-646-6062

Fx: 805-646-3026

email: stephen

 

 

 

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing

in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,

including board approved online continuing education.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

For me, although I agree with a lot of what you have said in your

recent posts, the issue is more of having our profession kept down to

the level of a therapist, when I know the potential of Chinese medicine

as a complete medical system. I don't see myself, or another more

advanced practitioners (those trained in Chinese colleges, or those in

the West who have continued to study and develop their knowledge of

Chinese medicine) as just therapists using acupuncture and 'herbal

supplements'. As you know, there is a very wide range of quality in the

CM marketplace. There is a small percentage of practitioners who can do

pattern differentiation and CM diagnosis, and really know how to do

herbal medicine or advanced acumoxa methods (and let's not forget diet,

exercise and lifestyle recommendations). I think public perception of

our profession is quite bifurcated between perceiving L. Ac.'s as the

same as massage therapists, or some as 'doctors.'

 

And, in potential, I do think our profession someday may merit to be the

'doctors' in alternative medicine, because of the great scope of Chinese

medicine. There is a great demand for alternative medicine. . .just

today, I got a brochure from the National Foundation for Alternative

Medicine, about the cancer crisis and the need for conventional and

alternative medicine to work together. Where else will the reliability

of diagnosis and treatment be found? Or natural medicines that actually

work in a somewhat predictable manner? These are the issues that are

important to me.

 

I would actually prefer the title 'yi sheng' or 'zhong yi' as used in

China, but no one would know what I am talking about.

 

In the meantime, I call myself a practitioner of Chinese herbal medicine

and acupuncture/moxa therapy.

 

 

On Friday, December 28, 2001, at 06:39 PM,

 

> , Kit <kitcurtin@e...> wrote:

>

> You mention thought police, but I think it may be the L.Ac who is

> playing with someone's mind when they misrepresent themselves this way.

> The government is forcing its licensee to be honest in his public

> dealings.  In theory, that's one of the few acceptable functions of

> government - to protect from fraud.  I suppose the question is begged

> as to who is harmed by this fraud.  I hate laws that penalize for

> ethics or morals when no one is harmed.  To be honest, I am not sure

> who is harmed by this.  The fear has always been that patients will not

> go to their doctor if they think their acupuncturist is trained to make

> all necessary medical decisions.  Studies have shown this to be

> unfounded.  So what it really comes down is territoriality of MD's,

> DC's, etc.  If everything is on the up and up, then I see no harm.  But

> everyone needs to question themselves.  If you are being deceptive to

> increase your stature, that does not seem to be a good foundation for a

> dr/pt relationship in the long run.  Finally, it certainly diminishes

> the value of our future doctoral degree if acupuncturists just call

> themselves doctor and no one cares. 

[Guest guest]

, " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> For me, although I agree with a lot of what you have said in your

> recent posts, the issue is more of having our profession kept down to

> the level of a therapist, when I know the potential of Chinese medicine

> as a complete medical system.

 

Ah, this is what irks me. I would say a large number of acupuncturists

I have met over the years do not really practice internal medicine.

They practice a variety of therapies like NAET, trigger point therapy,

needling only ah shi points, chakra therapy, etc., etc. So who is to

call themselves doctor? Anyone with an acupuncture license or just

those who actually practice internal medicine following the 2000 year

tradition of chinese physician. Ironically, I have noticed that it is

physical therapy wing of our profession who are most likely to call

themselves doctors in the absence of any doctoral degree at all. I

think we can all agree that when one calls oneself a doctor in America,

you are supposed to be able to know how to treat a wide range of

internal diseases or be a specialist in a particular category of

diseases (like GYN). I agree those who have studied and practiced TCM

internal medicine fit this description, but those who basically do

massage with needles do not. If we are being regarded as merely

therapists, it is our own fault for not demanding proficiency in

internal medicine of ALL students receiving master's degrees.

 

[Guest guest]

I agree 100%.

 

Many of the senior practitioners on this list are also

teachers/professors. I think I can say that these individuals are aware

of the need to improve levels of education towards this goal.

 

As far as political forces are concerned, I cannot understand that

aspect of our profession that wants to cripple the doctorate (by

excluding the medical Chinese requirement), divide the practice of

herbal medicine and acupuncture arbitrarily (although I have no problem

with an individual specializing in one or the other), and keep us down

at the therapist level and under the wing of medical boards.

 

 

On Saturday, December 29, 2001, at 06:34 PM, 1 wrote:

 

> , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

> > For me, although I agree with a lot of what you have said in

> your

> > recent posts, the issue is more of having our profession kept down to

> > the level of a therapist, when I know the potential of Chinese

> medicine

> > as a complete medical system.

>

> Ah, this is what irks me.  I would say a large number of acupuncturists

> I have met over the years do not really practice internal medicine. 

> They practice a variety of therapies like NAET, trigger point therapy,

> needling only ah shi points, chakra therapy, etc., etc.  So who is to

> call themselves doctor?  Anyone with an acupuncture license or just

> those who actually practice internal medicine following the 2000 year

> tradition of chinese physician.  Ironically, I have noticed that it is

> physical therapy wing of our profession who are most likely to call

> themselves doctors in the absence of any doctoral degree at all.  I

> think we can all agree that when one calls oneself a doctor in America,

> you are supposed to be able to know how to treat a wide range of

> internal diseases or be a specialist in a particular category of

> diseases (like GYN).  I agree those who have studied and practiced TCM

> internal medicine fit this description, but those who basically do

> massage with needles do not.  If we are being regarded as merely

> therapists, it is our own fault for not demanding proficiency in

> internal medicine of ALL students receiving master's degrees.

>

 

>

>

>

 

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

From Stephen: I have spent many years creating OTC herbal products.

>>>>Who do you do this for ie which company

alon*

 

-

stephen

Saturday, December 29, 2001 4:04 PM

RE: Re: dr. title

From Todd: I want all indications removed fromlabels and want nonmedical personnel banned from giving medical advice.People should be coming to see us for herbs, not self-medicating.From Stephen: I have spent many years creating OTC herbal products. Forour first product we spent four years developing raw material standards(both fermentation and a comparative analysis of plant quality from variousgrowing areas), quality control methods and standards (including analyticalmethods, reference standards, and), extraction process research,pre-clinical lab research, and two double blind, placebo controlled,randomized human studies. The result is an athlethic recovery andperformance-capacity-enhancing product that has shown to more than doublethe clearance of lactic acid from the blood. It would seem absurd forpeople to have to see their acupuncturist in order to get a bottle.From Todd: Its one thing to take echinacea and vitamin C for a cold. Idon't thinkpeople should be treating their own heart disease, though.From Stephen: The Dietary Supplement Health Education Act (DSHEA) has triedto do what you are suggesting, draw the line for self-medication with herbswhere there is a disease condition involved. However, there is asubstantial gray area between the two categories of health. This is whereany legislation will fail to meet everyone's definition of what aself-limiting disease actually is.Another issue that will continue to deter your desire for control of herbalmeds is the lack of demonstrable expertise with herbal medicine by all thosepracticing under an acupuncture license. Not only is the traininginadequate for acu's to claim such expertise, but the lack of not only goodresearch, or in fact ANY research indicating that LAc's can successfullytreat medical conditions, would need to be changed.I have also done research along the lines mentioned above on both thetreatment and prevention of cold and flu using two different formulasrelated to different aspects of immune function, as well as a formula forallergy, and have several other projects targeting other clinical end pointsunderway. The only way I have been able to obtain the funds to do thisresearch, and it hasn't been easy, is based on a potential return on what isconsidered an investment, not a pursuit of purely scientific curiosity.None of these funds have come from the acupuncture community, except my own.Stephen Morrissey OMDBotanica BioScience CorpP.O. Box 1477Ojai, CA 93024Ph: 805-646-6062Fx: 805-646-3026email: stephenThe Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcarepractitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializingin Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

I do think our profession someday may merit to be the 'doctors' in alternative medicine,

>>>And will demand that the profession increase educational standards at the same time as it demands to be treated as a profession, even in OR., Also how about New Medicine as the combined TCM and Biomedical Sciences are call in China or used to be in the 80's

Alon

 

-

 

Saturday, December 29, 2001 8:03 PM

Re: dr. title

For me, although I agree with a lot of what you have said in your recent posts, the issue is more of having our profession kept down to the level of a therapist, when I know the potential of Chinese medicine as a complete medical system. I don't see myself, or another more advanced practitioners (those trained in Chinese colleges, or those in the West who have continued to study and develop their knowledge of Chinese medicine) as just therapists using acupuncture and 'herbal supplements'. As you know, there is a very wide range of quality in the CM marketplace. There is a small percentage of practitioners who can do pattern differentiation and CM diagnosis, and really know how to do herbal medicine or advanced acumoxa methods (and let's not forget diet, exercise and lifestyle recommendations). I think public perception of our profession is quite bifurcated between perceiving L. Ac.'s as the same as massage therapists, or some as 'doctors.' And, in potential, I do think our profession someday may merit to be the 'doctors' in alternative medicine, because of the great scope of Chinese medicine. There is a great demand for alternative medicine. . .just today, I got a brochure from the National Foundation for Alternative Medicine, about the cancer crisis and the need for conventional and alternative medicine to work together. Where else will the reliability of diagnosis and treatment be found? Or natural medicines that actually work in a somewhat predictable manner? These are the issues that are important to me.I would actually prefer the title 'yi sheng' or 'zhong yi' as used in China, but no one would know what I am talking about. In the meantime, I call myself a practitioner of Chinese herbal medicine and acupuncture/moxa therapy.On Friday, December 28, 2001, at 06:39 PM,

, Kit <kitcurtin@e...> wrote:You mention thought police, but I think it may be the L.Ac who is playing with someone's mind when they misrepresent themselves this way. The government is forcing its licensee to be honest in his public dealings. In theory, that's one of the few acceptable functions of government - to protect from fraud. I suppose the question is begged as to who is harmed by this fraud. I hate laws that penalize for ethics or morals when no one is harmed. To be honest, I am not sure who is harmed by this. The fear has always been that patients will not go to their doctor if they think their acupuncturist is trained to make all necessary medical decisions. Studies have shown this to be unfounded. So what it really comes down is territoriality of MD's, DC's, etc. If everything is on the up and up, then I see no harm. But everyone needs to question themselves. If you are being deceptive to increase your stature, that does not seem to be a good foundation for a dr/pt relationship in the long run. Finally, it certainly diminishes the value of our future doctoral degree if acupuncturists just call themselves doctor and no one cares.

[Guest guest]

actually practice internal medicine

\>>>Is 'internal medicine'the only real medicine. You think doing good orthopedics is not being a Dr. I have news for Todd

Alon

 

-

1

Saturday, December 29, 2001 8:34 PM

Re: dr. title

, "" <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:> For me, although I agree with a lot of what you have said in your > recent posts, the issue is more of having our profession kept down to > the level of a therapist, when I know the potential of Chinese medicine > as a complete medical system. Ah, this is what irks me. I would say a large number of acupuncturists I have met over the years do not really practice internal medicine. They practice a variety of therapies like NAET, trigger point therapy, needling only ah shi points, chakra therapy, etc., etc. So who is to call themselves doctor? Anyone with an acupuncture license or just those who actually practice internal medicine following the 2000 year tradition of chinese physician. Ironically, I have noticed that it is physical therapy wing of our profession who are most likely to call themselves doctors in the absence of any doctoral degree at all. I think we can all agree that when one calls oneself a doctor in America, you are supposed to be able to know how to treat a wide range of internal diseases or be a specialist in a particular category of diseases (like GYN). I agree those who have studied and practiced TCM internal medicine fit this description, but those who basically do massage with needles do not. If we are being regarded as merely therapists, it is our own fault for not demanding proficiency in internal medicine of ALL students receiving master's degrees.Todd Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

 

- If we are being regarded as merely therapists, it is our own fault for not demanding proficiency in internal medicine of ALL students receiving master's degrees.

 

>>>I agree with this. As long as we do not follow comunity sendards for Dr or other higher education we will stay in the fringe. I thing the use of internal medicine is wrong. First one has to have a good general medical education wich includes 'internal med'

Alon

Alon

1

Saturday, December 29, 2001 8:34 PM

Re: dr. title

, "" <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:> For me, although I agree with a lot of what you have said in your > recent posts, the issue is more of having our profession kept down to > the level of a therapist, when I know the potential of Chinese medicine > as a complete medical system. Ah, this is what irks me. I would say a large number of acupuncturists I have met over the years do not really practice internal medicine. They practice a variety of therapies like NAET, trigger point therapy, needling only ah shi points, chakra therapy, etc., etc. So who is to call themselves doctor? Anyone with an acupuncture license or just those who actually practice internal medicine following the 2000 year tradition of chinese physician. Ironically, I have noticed that it is physical therapy wing of our profession who are most likely to call themselves doctors in the absence of any doctoral degree at all. I think we can all agree that when one calls oneself a doctor in America, you are supposed to be able to know how to treat a wide range of internal diseases or be a specialist in a particular category of diseases (like GYN). I agree those who have studied and practiced TCM internal medicine fit this description, but those who basically do massage with needles do not. If we are being regarded as merely therapists, it is our own fault for not demanding proficiency in internal medicine of ALL students receiving master's degrees.Todd Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

As far as political forces are concerned, I cannot understand that aspect of our profession that wants to cripple the doctorate (by excluding the medical Chinese requirement), divide the practice of herbal medicine and acupuncture arbitrarily (although I have no problem with an individual specializing in one or the other), and keep us down at the therapist level and under the wing of medical boards.>>>Totally agree although, again, not with requiring Chinese, although I am not sure by what you mean by medical Chinese.

Alon

 

-

 

Saturday, December 29, 2001 9:07 PM

Re: Re: dr. title

I agree 100%.Many of the senior practitioners on this list are also teachers/professors. I think I can say that these individuals are aware of the need to improve levels of education towards this goal.As far as political forces are concerned, I cannot understand that aspect of our profession that wants to cripple the doctorate (by excluding the medical Chinese requirement), divide the practice of herbal medicine and acupuncture arbitrarily (although I have no problem with an individual specializing in one or the other), and keep us down at the therapist level and under the wing of medical boards.On Saturday, December 29, 2001, at 06:34 PM, 1 wrote:

, "" <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:> For me, although I agree with a lot of what you have said in your> recent posts, the issue is more of having our profession kept down to> the level of a therapist, when I know the potential of Chinese medicine> as a complete medical system.Ah, this is what irks me. I would say a large number of acupuncturistsI have met over the years do not really practice internal medicine. They practice a variety of therapies like NAET, trigger point therapy,needling only ah shi points, chakra therapy, etc., etc. So who is tocall themselves doctor? Anyone with an acupuncture license or justthose who actually practice internal medicine following the 2000 yeartradition of chinese physician. Ironically, I have noticed that it isphysical therapy wing of our profession who are most likely to callthemselves doctors in the absence of any doctoral degree at all. Ithink we can all agree that when one calls oneself a doctor in America,you are supposed to be able to know how to treat a wide range ofinternal diseases or be a specialist in a particular category ofdiseases (like GYN). I agree those who have studied and practiced TCMinternal medicine fit this description, but those who basically domassage with needles do not. If we are being regarded as merelytherapists, it is our own fault for not demanding proficiency ininternal medicine of ALL students receiving master's degrees.Todd

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

, " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:

 

divide the practice of

> herbal medicine and acupuncture arbitrarily

 

Haven't these largely been separate practices in both ancient and

modern China?

 

[Guest guest]

> From Stephen: It would seem absurd for

> people to have to see their acupuncturist in order to get a bottle.

>

 

I think it is a completely different matter to label a product that has

been proven to be effective in the type of studies you describe. I

have no problem with that. While you say the DSHEA regulates the use

of medical claims, the gray area is quite large and careless in design,

IMO. Many products are labeled in a way that suggests they treat

serious heart or liver diseases. As for our training, I won't argue

with your basic premise, except to say that we are infinitely more

trained than the clerk in the healthfood store. And companies

certainly have a vested interest in sidestepping the profesional

practice of herbology because they sell a lot more products when they

market directly to the consumer. I commend your company for actually

studying their proudcts prior to labeling them. You know very well

that this an exception to widespread unscrupulous marketing practices.

 

[Guest guest]

> From Stephen:

> Another issue that will continue to deter your desire for control of herbal

meds ...

 

There is a backlash mounting against the DSHEA amongst both the public

and their elected representatives. Dave Molony of AAOM has indicated

that he fears we may lose access to all supplements in the near future.

Though he doesn't agree with my proposed solution. I think if we sit

back and maintain our libertarian stance and unwavering support for

DSHEA as it now exists, we will lose everything in the long run. If we

engage the government with proposals for inteligent regulation that has

much stricter labeling and medical advice rules, we can have our cake

and eat it, too. If unscrupulous companies lose their market share as

a result, I could care less. Since the current administration is very

sensitive to states rights, I do not think it is vital that we prove

our prescribing skills to accomplish this goal. CA has recently

expanded the herb prescribing rights of acupuncturists. If the state

has faith in what we do, I don't think the feds are going to argue with

that. We are trained according to state and national standards

already. Granted, I find people's skills in herbology lacking, but

that is just another area where we need to take some initiative now

before it may come back to haunt us.

 

[Guest guest]

, " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> actually practice internal medicine

> \>>>Is 'internal medicine'the only real medicine. You think doing good

orthopedics is not being a Dr. I have news for Todd

 

Orthopedics is a specialty. And in china it has always involved the

use of internal medication with herbs. It has also always been

something much more sophisticated than needling painful points or

giving massage. I know this is not what you practice and how you

practice is definitely worthy of the title medicine. No personal

offense was intended. I should have been clearer, but I also consider

dermatology and neurology to be internal medicine.

 

[Guest guest]

, " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

>

> - If we are being regarded as merely

> therapists, it is our own fault for not demanding proficiency in

> internal medicine of ALL students receiving master's degrees.

>

>

> >>>I agree with this. As long as we do not follow comunity sendards for Dr

or other higher education we will stay in the fringe. I thing the use of

internal medicine is wrong. First one has to have a good general medical

education wich includes 'internal med'

 

Sorry, I really meant to say proficiency in the administration of

internally ingested medications. Even an orthopedic surgeon knows what

drugs to give for pain. Acupuncturists who treat pain should likewise

know how to practice herbology in an expert manner for this purpose.