Guest guest Posted December 31, 2001 Report Share Posted December 31, 2001 Here's my thought on this now tiresome issue: I don't speak Chinese and have only a slight desire to learn --- almost entirely for the benefits that have been belabored time and again on this list. I do have incredible access to translated works that serve me very well and a critical mind. I also have a sizeable population of patients that see me having already seen native Chinese speaking practitioners who were unable to help them --- and are now improving. I also have a social life, hobbies and interests other than TCM. Believe it or not. And I already spend more than a fair amount of time researching my difficult cases, when not on the clock. Alon is right that it is a prioritization in my time which must occur. I opt to enhance my clinical abilities with the vast number of TCM clinical works in English, as well as by perusing the biomedical works out there. Given an infinite amount of free time or an incredible interest in Chinese culture I would learn Chinese. I don't have either. Mark Reese - " Rory Kerr " <rorykerr Monday, December 31, 2001 12:16 PM Re: dr. title/language again > At 4:42 PM +0000 12/31/01, jramholz wrote: > >The time/benefit *is* an important question, too... > > > >The issue of time/benefit at this stage of development in our > >profession is largely about the social and financial considerations. > >Are classes now adequate and sufficient to go the next step and > >spend extra time requiring language? > -- > As a teacher in two colleges and also on the seminar circuit, I'd say > that without question the most valuable next addition would medical > Chinese language. It is a major missing link in our education at > present. A one unit class per semester for 12 semesters would be an > immense improvement, and not incredibly burdensome for the student or > institution. > > >Can schools do it and remain > >solvent? Are we are putting an extra burden on schools who often > >have small enrollments and limited financial resources? Will a > >language requirement discourage application to schools? > -- > I can't imagine any serious student intent on becoming a practitioner > not signing up for this reason, assuming that it was a requirement at > all schools. Of course, it would have to be a requirement for > accreditation to create an even playing field. > > >The return > >on this investment hasn't been demonstrated yet. > -- > Not sure what this means. Whose investment, in what? > > >If there are now > >not enough competent teachers now for classes in English who can > >survey the published translations and commentaries, the burden on > >finding new teachers who know how to teach the language only > >compounds a school's problems. > -- > I don't think it is necessary to find all new teachers. Finding a > teacher for the medical Chinese class could not be too difficult. > Current teachers of other CM classes can be brought up to speed over > time, and if they refuse, can be replaced over the longer term. It > doesn't need to be an all at once transition. In the short term, it > would be more important that they be committed to the project, than > to be expert. > > Rory > -- > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2001 Report Share Posted December 31, 2001 On Monday, December 31, 2001, at 10:42 AM, Mark Reese wrote: > Here's my thought on this now tiresome issue: > > I don't speak Chinese and have only a slight desire to learn --- almost > entirely for the benefits that have been belabored time and again on > this > list. I do have incredible access to translated works that serve me > very > well and a critical mind. I also have a sizeable population of patients > that see me having already seen native Chinese speaking practitioners > who > were unable to help them --- and are now improving. (Z'ev) I think the issue you bring up here has to do with other factors than Chinese language. It has to do with communication skills, training, and dedication. There are very good Chinese practitioners, and not so good Chinese practitioners. As Bob Flaws has pointed out, the best teachers and writers have native English skills as well as Chinese skills. Sometimes cultural affinity is important in one's clinical acumen. Not being able to understand one's patients can be a major barrier to the practice of medicine (and sometimes not. . . .as with great pulse diagnosticians such as Yeshe Dhonden, Tibetan physician). > > I also have a social life, hobbies and interests other than TCM. > Believe it > or not. And I already spend more than a fair amount of time > researching my > difficult cases, when not on the clock. Alon is right that it is a > prioritization in my time which must occur. I opt to enhance my > clinical > abilities with the vast number of TCM clinical works in English, as > well as > by perusing the biomedical works out there. Given an infinite amount of > free time or an incredible interest in Chinese culture I would learn > Chinese. I don't have either. I also have these issues, Mark. I teach 12-15 hrs. per week, see about 50 patients per week, and am raising four children, along with practice of yoga, hiking, and my Jewish religious obligations. I still think it is a necessity to study medical Chinese every single day, for my benefit, and most importantly, for the benefit of my students and patients. I am not trying to say this to imply that you have 'no excuse'. You may have your reasons, and I accept that. All I am trying to point out is that many of us feel it is a priority, and for very important reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2001 Report Share Posted December 31, 2001 Mark, I completely sympathize. When my first Chinese medical teacher said that to really understand CM one has to at least read Chinese, I was way too old and way too busy as a clinician to act on that suggestion. I was 32 and already read several languages. So I muddled along for 10 years, doing a passable job, often, like you, better than even some native Chinese speakers. However, when I finally did take the time, slowly, slowly over the last 12 years, a little bit, little bit day by day, I found that, the more Chinese I read and understood, the better clinician I became. This process eventually picked up steam and has continued to, at least from my point of view, snowballed. Bottom line for me here is that I believe that reading Chinese has made me a much, much better clinician. I was never interested in studying Chinese for purely academic reasons. Nor have I studied Chinese because I love the people and the culture. Having been " brought up " in a Tibetan refugee household for two decades, anyone who knows me knows that I am not a sinophile. I taught myself to read Chinese despite my many negative feelings towards that study only because every hour spent has had very real clinical and economic rewards. Bob , " Mark Reese " <tcm2@r...> wrote: > Here's my thought on this now tiresome issue: > > I don't speak Chinese and have only a slight desire to learn --- almost > entirely for the benefits that have been belabored time and again on this > list. I do have incredible access to translated works that serve me very > well and a critical mind. I also have a sizeable population of patients > that see me having already seen native Chinese speaking practitioners who > were unable to help them --- and are now improving. > > I also have a social life, hobbies and interests other than TCM. Believe it > or not. And I already spend more than a fair amount of time researching my > difficult cases, when not on the clock. Alon is right that it is a > prioritization in my time which must occur. I opt to enhance my clinical > abilities with the vast number of TCM clinical works in English, as well as > by perusing the biomedical works out there. Given an infinite amount of > free time or an incredible interest in Chinese culture I would learn > Chinese. I don't have either. > > Mark Reese > - > " Rory Kerr " <rorykerr@w...> > > Monday, December 31, 2001 12:16 PM > Re: dr. title/language again > > > > At 4:42 PM +0000 12/31/01, jramholz wrote: > > >The time/benefit *is* an important question, too... > > > > > >The issue of time/benefit at this stage of development in our > > >profession is largely about the social and financial considerations. > > >Are classes now adequate and sufficient to go the next step and > > >spend extra time requiring language? > > -- > > As a teacher in two colleges and also on the seminar circuit, I'd say > > that without question the most valuable next addition would medical > > Chinese language. It is a major missing link in our education at > > present. A one unit class per semester for 12 semesters would be an > > immense improvement, and not incredibly burdensome for the student or > > institution. > > > > >Can schools do it and remain > > >solvent? Are we are putting an extra burden on schools who often > > >have small enrollments and limited financial resources? Will a > > >language requirement discourage application to schools? > > -- > > I can't imagine any serious student intent on becoming a practitioner > > not signing up for this reason, assuming that it was a requirement at > > all schools. Of course, it would have to be a requirement for > > accreditation to create an even playing field. > > > > >The return > > >on this investment hasn't been demonstrated yet. > > -- > > Not sure what this means. Whose investment, in what? > > > > >If there are now > > >not enough competent teachers now for classes in English who can > > >survey the published translations and commentaries, the burden on > > >finding new teachers who know how to teach the language only > > >compounds a school's problems. > > -- > > I don't think it is necessary to find all new teachers. Finding a > > teacher for the medical Chinese class could not be too difficult. > > Current teachers of other CM classes can be brought up to speed over > > time, and if they refuse, can be replaced over the longer term. It > > doesn't need to be an all at once transition. In the short term, it > > would be more important that they be committed to the project, than > > to be expert. > > > > Rory > > -- > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare > practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing > in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, > including board approved online continuing education. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2001 Report Share Posted December 31, 2001 At 12:42 PM -0600 12/31/01, Mark Reese wrote: >Here's my thought on this now tiresome issue: > >I don't speak Chinese and have only a slight desire to learn -- You are personalizing an issue that wasn't under discussion. The discussion was about the content of new programs for new students, and for those who want to take the doctorate, in the interests of improving curricula in the future. No-one is suggesting we all go back to school. Otherwise I agree with what you say; that is my experience also. Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2001 Report Share Posted December 31, 2001 Having been "brought up" in a Tibetan refugee household for two decades >>>>Housing refugees? Alon - pemachophel2001 Monday, December 31, 2001 2:03 PM Re: language again Mark,I completely sympathize. When my first Chinese medical teacher said that to really understand CM one has to at least read Chinese, I was way too old and way too busy as a clinician to act on that suggestion. I was 32 and already read several languages. So I muddled along for 10 years, doing a passable job, often, like you, better than even some native Chinese speakers. However, when I finally did take the time, slowly, slowly over the last 12 years, a little bit, little bit day by day, I found that, the more Chinese I read and understood, the better clinician I became. This process eventually picked up steam and has continued to, at least from my point of view, snowballed. Bottom line for me here is that I believe that reading Chinese has made me a much, much better clinician. I was never interested in studying Chinese for purely academic reasons. Nor have I studied Chinese because I love the people and the culture. Having been "brought up" in a Tibetan refugee household for two decades, anyone who knows me knows that I am not a sinophile. I taught myself to read Chinese despite my many negative feelings towards that study only because every hour spent has had very real clinical and economic rewards.Bob, "Mark Reese" <tcm2@r...> wrote:> Here's my thought on this now tiresome issue:> > I don't speak Chinese and have only a slight desire to learn --- almost> entirely for the benefits that have been belabored time and again on this> list. I do have incredible access to translated works that serve me very> well and a critical mind. I also have a sizeable population of patients> that see me having already seen native Chinese speaking practitioners who> were unable to help them --- and are now improving.> > I also have a social life, hobbies and interests other than TCM. Believe it> or not. And I already spend more than a fair amount of time researching my> difficult cases, when not on the clock. Alon is right that it is a> prioritization in my time which must occur. I opt to enhance my clinical> abilities with the vast number of TCM clinical works in English, as well as> by perusing the biomedical works out there. Given an infinite amount of> free time or an incredible interest in Chinese culture I would learn> Chinese. I don't have either.> > Mark Reese> -> "Rory Kerr" <rorykerr@w...>> > Monday, December 31, 2001 12:16 PM> Re: dr. title/language again> > > > At 4:42 PM +0000 12/31/01, jramholz wrote:> > >The time/benefit *is* an important question, too...> > >> > >The issue of time/benefit at this stage of development in our> > >profession is largely about the social and financial considerations.> > >Are classes now adequate and sufficient to go the next step and> > >spend extra time requiring language?> > --> > As a teacher in two colleges and also on the seminar circuit, I'd say> > that without question the most valuable next addition would medical> > Chinese language. It is a major missing link in our education at> > present. A one unit class per semester for 12 semesters would be an> > immense improvement, and not incredibly burdensome for the student or> > institution.> >> > >Can schools do it and remain> > >solvent? Are we are putting an extra burden on schools who often> > >have small enrollments and limited financial resources? Will a> > >language requirement discourage application to schools?> > --> > I can't imagine any serious student intent on becoming a practitioner> > not signing up for this reason, assuming that it was a requirement at> > all schools. Of course, it would have to be a requirement for> > accreditation to create an even playing field.> >> > >The return> > >on this investment hasn't been demonstrated yet.> > --> > Not sure what this means. Whose investment, in what?> >> > >If there are now> > >not enough competent teachers now for classes in English who can> > >survey the published translations and commentaries, the burden on> > >finding new teachers who know how to teach the language only> > >compounds a school's problems.> > --> > I don't think it is necessary to find all new teachers. Finding a> > teacher for the medical Chinese class could not be too difficult.> > Current teachers of other CM classes can be brought up to speed over> > time, and if they refuse, can be replaced over the longer term. It> > doesn't need to be an all at once transition. In the short term, it> > would be more important that they be committed to the project, than> > to be expert.> >> > Rory> > --> >> > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare> practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing> in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,> including board approved online continuing education.> >> > http://www..org> >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2001 Report Share Posted December 31, 2001 Bob, except for the fact that you obviously exposed yourself to a lot more literature how did knowing Chinese helped you. I am still trying to understand why with CM knowing Chinese is so different than learning any subject in a native langue Alon - pemachophel2001 Monday, December 31, 2001 2:03 PM Re: language again Mark,I completely sympathize. When my first Chinese medical teacher said that to really understand CM one has to at least read Chinese, I was way too old and way too busy as a clinician to act on that suggestion. I was 32 and already read several languages. So I muddled along for 10 years, doing a passable job, often, like you, better than even some native Chinese speakers. However, when I finally did take the time, slowly, slowly over the last 12 years, a little bit, little bit day by day, I found that, the more Chinese I read and understood, the better clinician I became. This process eventually picked up steam and has continued to, at least from my point of view, snowballed. Bottom line for me here is that I believe that reading Chinese has made me a much, much better clinician. I was never interested in studying Chinese for purely academic reasons. Nor have I studied Chinese because I love the people and the culture. Having been "brought up" in a Tibetan refugee household for two decades, anyone who knows me knows that I am not a sinophile. I taught myself to read Chinese despite my many negative feelings towards that study only because every hour spent has had very real clinical and economic rewards.Bob, "Mark Reese" <tcm2@r...> wrote:> Here's my thought on this now tiresome issue:> > I don't speak Chinese and have only a slight desire to learn --- almost> entirely for the benefits that have been belabored time and again on this> list. I do have incredible access to translated works that serve me very> well and a critical mind. I also have a sizeable population of patients> that see me having already seen native Chinese speaking practitioners who> were unable to help them --- and are now improving.> > I also have a social life, hobbies and interests other than TCM. Believe it> or not. And I already spend more than a fair amount of time researching my> difficult cases, when not on the clock. Alon is right that it is a> prioritization in my time which must occur. I opt to enhance my clinical> abilities with the vast number of TCM clinical works in English, as well as> by perusing the biomedical works out there. Given an infinite amount of> free time or an incredible interest in Chinese culture I would learn> Chinese. I don't have either.> > Mark Reese> -> "Rory Kerr" <rorykerr@w...>> > Monday, December 31, 2001 12:16 PM> Re: dr. title/language again> > > > At 4:42 PM +0000 12/31/01, jramholz wrote:> > >The time/benefit *is* an important question, too...> > >> > >The issue of time/benefit at this stage of development in our> > >profession is largely about the social and financial considerations.> > >Are classes now adequate and sufficient to go the next step and> > >spend extra time requiring language?> > --> > As a teacher in two colleges and also on the seminar circuit, I'd say> > that without question the most valuable next addition would medical> > Chinese language. It is a major missing link in our education at> > present. A one unit class per semester for 12 semesters would be an> > immense improvement, and not incredibly burdensome for the student or> > institution.> >> > >Can schools do it and remain> > >solvent? Are we are putting an extra burden on schools who often> > >have small enrollments and limited financial resources? Will a> > >language requirement discourage application to schools?> > --> > I can't imagine any serious student intent on becoming a practitioner> > not signing up for this reason, assuming that it was a requirement at> > all schools. Of course, it would have to be a requirement for> > accreditation to create an even playing field.> >> > >The return> > >on this investment hasn't been demonstrated yet.> > --> > Not sure what this means. Whose investment, in what?> >> > >If there are now> > >not enough competent teachers now for classes in English who can> > >survey the published translations and commentaries, the burden on> > >finding new teachers who know how to teach the language only> > >compounds a school's problems.> > --> > I don't think it is necessary to find all new teachers. Finding a> > teacher for the medical Chinese class could not be too difficult.> > Current teachers of other CM classes can be brought up to speed over> > time, and if they refuse, can be replaced over the longer term. It> > doesn't need to be an all at once transition. In the short term, it> > would be more important that they be committed to the project, than> > to be expert.> >> > Rory> > --> >> > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare> practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing> in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services,> including board approved online continuing education.> >> > http://www..org> >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.