Flow or Connection?

[Guest guest]

Bob,

 

You're an amazing guy. I want you to know

how highly I value your dedication and your

persistence. Despite whatever differences

we have on this or that point, I consider

it an honor to take part in these discussions

with you.

 

Thank you for posting these final results

of your poll. I believe they reemphasize

one of the points that Jason made about

the necessity of including the rationale

for interpretation of terms, term choices,

etc.

 

 

However, in a larger sense, if by connection and

> communication, one means " in normal functioning order, " then these

> terms might also be considered ok in relationship to pain. Dr.

Shuai

> felt that a full exposition of this would require an entire thesis.

>

Since this is more or less precisely what

I was trying to say at the beginning of

this thread, I would add that the contents

of such a thesis would have to include

an investigation into presumed notions of

anatomy and physiology that would explore

the meaning of such fundamental concepts

as qi4, jing1 luo4, etc.

 

That was the conversation that I've been

hoping to have with you about this.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Yes you do. Not only do you question people's integrity, you dismiss their discussions as masturbation, you dismiss people as elitist, and dismiss the whole subject as unnecessary

>>>>non of these question integrity. dimisive perhaps with the qualification I make.

Alon

 

-

dragon90405

Monday, January 14, 2002 12:35 PM

Re: Flow or Connection?

Alon,> >>I do not question anyone's integrity.Yes you do. Not only do you question people's integrity, you dismiss their discussions as masturbation, you dismiss people as elitist, and dismiss the whole subject as unnecessary. Perhaps we should all be conditioned by now to simply edit or filter what you have to say giving allowance for your self-professed poor language skills...although there was not such forbearancedisplayed in this forum for a chatty Taiwanese nurse. Since you have made it clear that you failed to gain anything of substantial benefit from your study ofChinese medical language, which is why you gave up the study and now characterize it as being an economically unwise investmentof time and effort, it is quite easy to take everything you say on the subject with a grain of salt.But please don't now assert that you donot question anyone's integrity when youhave been so entirely dismissive of othersand their integrity.I only wander about usefulness of translated materials for clinicians, as this is my only bottom line. As I have argued from the start, before this topic, there seems to be a divorce in this profession between useful, proven, tested, material and the need to 1. translate all that can be translated, 2. Making the "correctness" of translation an issue that may or not be material at all times. and 3. lack of critical input into translations and clinical guide type books (which to me is probably the most bothersome question). > Talking about, the almost mystic Chinese language as pertains to medicine, and suggesting that one can only understand the medicine if one can read the satellites of characters is another thing. I will again state that I would like to see more evidence for thisI don't have the slightest idea of preciselywhat you mean by "the satellites of characters"but I understand that remark as another flipattempt to dismiss the relevance of understandingChinese in the education of Chinese medicalpersonnel. You've already stated thatreading the evidence, which we presented inour book to support the position that thereare, indeed, substantial benefits to be gainedfrom the study and understanding of Chinesemedical language, culture, philosophy, etc.,had no effect for you. I accept that thereis nothing that I can say or offer in theway of further evidence that might succeedwhere Who Can Ride the Dragon did not in yourcase. But the evidence is all around you, and ifyou do want to see it, all you need to dois open your eyes and look.For thousands of years now, Chinese medicinehas been transmitted from one generationto the next through the various mechanismsand vehicles available in the Chinese language.The survival of the subject thus testifiesmost convincingly of the effectiveness ofthat language to transmit that knowledgebase. And if you look throughout Asia whereChinese medicine has been adopted by andadapted to local people in areas outsideof China, you will find that these peoplehave tended to rely upon the proven efficacyof Chinese as a primary vehicle for theirown reception and transmission of thesubject. They have built their owninnovations on a firm foundation ofChinese langauge sources.Only in the West and only rather recentlyhas the experiment been attempted by agrowing number of people to implementChinese medicine without such a strongfoundation. Will it work?It is far too soon to tell. KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Since you have made it clear that you failed to gain anything of substantial benefit from your study ofChinese medical language, which is why you gave up the study and now characterize it as being an economically unwise investmentof time and effort, it is quite easy to take everything you say on the subject with a grain of salt.>>>I could reverse this and say since you have invested "your self" within it so deeply your judgment may be questionable as well

Alon

 

-

dragon90405

Monday, January 14, 2002 12:35 PM

Re: Flow or Connection?

Alon,> >>I do not question anyone's integrity.Yes you do. Not only do you question people's integrity, you dismiss their discussions as masturbation, you dismiss people as elitist, and dismiss the whole subject as unnecessary. Perhaps we should all be conditioned by now to simply edit or filter what you have to say giving allowance for your self-professed poor language skills...although there was not such forbearancedisplayed in this forum for a chatty Taiwanese nurse. Since you have made it clear that you failed to gain anything of substantial benefit from your study ofChinese medical language, which is why you gave up the study and now characterize it as being an economically unwise investmentof time and effort, it is quite easy to take everything you say on the subject with a grain of salt.But please don't now assert that you donot question anyone's integrity when youhave been so entirely dismissive of othersand their integrity.I only wander about usefulness of translated materials for clinicians, as this is my only bottom line. As I have argued from the start, before this topic, there seems to be a divorce in this profession between useful, proven, tested, material and the need to 1. translate all that can be translated, 2. Making the "correctness" of translation an issue that may or not be material at all times. and 3. lack of critical input into translations and clinical guide type books (which to me is probably the most bothersome question). > Talking about, the almost mystic Chinese language as pertains to medicine, and suggesting that one can only understand the medicine if one can read the satellites of characters is another thing. I will again state that I would like to see more evidence for thisI don't have the slightest idea of preciselywhat you mean by "the satellites of characters"but I understand that remark as another flipattempt to dismiss the relevance of understandingChinese in the education of Chinese medicalpersonnel. You've already stated thatreading the evidence, which we presented inour book to support the position that thereare, indeed, substantial benefits to be gainedfrom the study and understanding of Chinesemedical language, culture, philosophy, etc.,had no effect for you. I accept that thereis nothing that I can say or offer in theway of further evidence that might succeedwhere Who Can Ride the Dragon did not in yourcase. But the evidence is all around you, and ifyou do want to see it, all you need to dois open your eyes and look.For thousands of years now, Chinese medicinehas been transmitted from one generationto the next through the various mechanismsand vehicles available in the Chinese language.The survival of the subject thus testifiesmost convincingly of the effectiveness ofthat language to transmit that knowledgebase. And if you look throughout Asia whereChinese medicine has been adopted by andadapted to local people in areas outsideof China, you will find that these peoplehave tended to rely upon the proven efficacyof Chinese as a primary vehicle for theirown reception and transmission of thesubject. They have built their owninnovations on a firm foundation ofChinese langauge sources.Only in the West and only rather recentlyhas the experiment been attempted by agrowing number of people to implementChinese medicine without such a strongfoundation. Will it work?It is far too soon to tell. KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

But the evidence is all around you, and ifyou do want to see it, all you need to dois open your eyes and look.>>>Well this is were my debate lays. We consider evidence in different ways

Alon

 

-

dragon90405

Monday, January 14, 2002 12:35 PM

Re: Flow or Connection?

Alon,> >>I do not question anyone's integrity.Yes you do. Not only do you question people's integrity, you dismiss their discussions as masturbation, you dismiss people as elitist, and dismiss the whole subject as unnecessary. Perhaps we should all be conditioned by now to simply edit or filter what you have to say giving allowance for your self-professed poor language skills...although there was not such forbearancedisplayed in this forum for a chatty Taiwanese nurse. Since you have made it clear that you failed to gain anything of substantial benefit from your study ofChinese medical language, which is why you gave up the study and now characterize it as being an economically unwise investmentof time and effort, it is quite easy to take everything you say on the subject with a grain of salt.But please don't now assert that you donot question anyone's integrity when youhave been so entirely dismissive of othersand their integrity.I only wander about usefulness of translated materials for clinicians, as this is my only bottom line. As I have argued from the start, before this topic, there seems to be a divorce in this profession between useful, proven, tested, material and the need to 1. translate all that can be translated, 2. Making the "correctness" of translation an issue that may or not be material at all times. and 3. lack of critical input into translations and clinical guide type books (which to me is probably the most bothersome question). > Talking about, the almost mystic Chinese language as pertains to medicine, and suggesting that one can only understand the medicine if one can read the satellites of characters is another thing. I will again state that I would like to see more evidence for thisI don't have the slightest idea of preciselywhat you mean by "the satellites of characters"but I understand that remark as another flipattempt to dismiss the relevance of understandingChinese in the education of Chinese medicalpersonnel. You've already stated thatreading the evidence, which we presented inour book to support the position that thereare, indeed, substantial benefits to be gainedfrom the study and understanding of Chinesemedical language, culture, philosophy, etc.,had no effect for you. I accept that thereis nothing that I can say or offer in theway of further evidence that might succeedwhere Who Can Ride the Dragon did not in yourcase. But the evidence is all around you, and ifyou do want to see it, all you need to dois open your eyes and look.For thousands of years now, Chinese medicinehas been transmitted from one generationto the next through the various mechanismsand vehicles available in the Chinese language.The survival of the subject thus testifiesmost convincingly of the effectiveness ofthat language to transmit that knowledgebase. And if you look throughout Asia whereChinese medicine has been adopted by andadapted to local people in areas outsideof China, you will find that these peoplehave tended to rely upon the proven efficacyof Chinese as a primary vehicle for theirown reception and transmission of thesubject. They have built their owninnovations on a firm foundation ofChinese langauge sources.Only in the West and only rather recentlyhas the experiment been attempted by agrowing number of people to implementChinese medicine without such a strongfoundation. Will it work?It is far too soon to tell. KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Will it work?>>>The question is also did it work

Alon

 

-

dragon90405

Monday, January 14, 2002 12:35 PM

Re: Flow or Connection?

Alon,> >>I do not question anyone's integrity.Yes you do. Not only do you question people's integrity, you dismiss their discussions as masturbation, you dismiss people as elitist, and dismiss the whole subject as unnecessary. Perhaps we should all be conditioned by now to simply edit or filter what you have to say giving allowance for your self-professed poor language skills...although there was not such forbearancedisplayed in this forum for a chatty Taiwanese nurse. Since you have made it clear that you failed to gain anything of substantial benefit from your study ofChinese medical language, which is why you gave up the study and now characterize it as being an economically unwise investmentof time and effort, it is quite easy to take everything you say on the subject with a grain of salt.But please don't now assert that you donot question anyone's integrity when youhave been so entirely dismissive of othersand their integrity.I only wander about usefulness of translated materials for clinicians, as this is my only bottom line. As I have argued from the start, before this topic, there seems to be a divorce in this profession between useful, proven, tested, material and the need to 1. translate all that can be translated, 2. Making the "correctness" of translation an issue that may or not be material at all times. and 3. lack of critical input into translations and clinical guide type books (which to me is probably the most bothersome question). > Talking about, the almost mystic Chinese language as pertains to medicine, and suggesting that one can only understand the medicine if one can read the satellites of characters is another thing. I will again state that I would like to see more evidence for thisI don't have the slightest idea of preciselywhat you mean by "the satellites of characters"but I understand that remark as another flipattempt to dismiss the relevance of understandingChinese in the education of Chinese medicalpersonnel. You've already stated thatreading the evidence, which we presented inour book to support the position that thereare, indeed, substantial benefits to be gainedfrom the study and understanding of Chinesemedical language, culture, philosophy, etc.,had no effect for you. I accept that thereis nothing that I can say or offer in theway of further evidence that might succeedwhere Who Can Ride the Dragon did not in yourcase. But the evidence is all around you, and ifyou do want to see it, all you need to dois open your eyes and look.For thousands of years now, Chinese medicinehas been transmitted from one generationto the next through the various mechanismsand vehicles available in the Chinese language.The survival of the subject thus testifiesmost convincingly of the effectiveness ofthat language to transmit that knowledgebase. And if you look throughout Asia whereChinese medicine has been adopted by andadapted to local people in areas outsideof China, you will find that these peoplehave tended to rely upon the proven efficacyof Chinese as a primary vehicle for theirown reception and transmission of thesubject. They have built their owninnovations on a firm foundation ofChinese langauge sources.Only in the West and only rather recentlyhas the experiment been attempted by agrowing number of people to implementChinese medicine without such a strongfoundation. Will it work?It is far too soon to tell. KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

At 9:11 AM -0800 1/14/02, wrote:

>When I first read about the " qi wild " pulse in a magazine article on

>the Hammer system a few years ago, I tried to look it up right away.

>I couldn't find it in the Clinical Dictionary, but I did find luan3

>in the Wiseman English-Chinese Chinese-English Dictionary, and

>assumed that was what Dr. Hammer was talking about. I also

>connected it with Chace and Shou-zhong's translation of the term

> " chaotic qi " as used in their Jia Yi Jing/Systematic Classic of

>Acupuncture and Moxabustion. However, the average student is not

>going to be able to make this connection, beyond the glossary in the

>Hammer pulse book. Why should it be a problem to remove the

>guesswork for students and practitioners who would like to

>understand these concepts correctly and use them? A standard

>terminology helps, I agree.

--

 

Z'ev, to the best of my knowledge there is no such thing as a qi wild

pulse offered by either John Shen or Leon Hammer. Qi wild is a

condition of chaotic disorder, that may be deduced by diagnosis by

the 4 methods. I've heard it equated to the separation of yin and

yang. There are several possible pulse qualities (for example the

rootless qualities) that could help define the condition, but that

would only be part of the diagnosis. These pulse qualities can also

be present when there is no 'qi wild' condition. There should be

indications in the persons other symptoms and disease process, before

using that term.

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

At 11:22 AM -0800 1/14/02, ALON MARCUS wrote:

wrote:

don't see how 'nervous system'

pulse can be a useful description if it is not talking about the

actual nervous system. It may be clear to you, but try teaching it to

a class of forty students.

>>I

was talking about sensation of pulses not interpretations. Shen

however has formulas for each of these pulses

--

 

At the risk of being repetitive, I have not heard either Leon

Hammer or John Shen use the term nervous system pulse in the way

implied here. My understanding is that John Shen defined 2 conditions,

'nervous system tense' & 'nervous system weak'. Neither of these

conditions are defined solely by the pulse, but are terms used to

describe general disorders or tendencies, which are hard to categorize

according to standard pattern ID because they have several mild and

variable symptoms from different systems, and no distinct

disease.

 

'Nervous system tense' is a term used to describe someone of

generally tense personality type, and who has a pulse which is some

flavor of bowstring/xian in all positions. However, not all people

with bowstring pulses should be described as nervous system

tense.

 

Likewise 'Nervous system weak' is a term that describes someone

with a constitutionally weak nervous system, ie a lifelong history of

instability, weakness and vulnerability. The most likely pulse quality

with this condition is a feeble/ruo pulse, with a slight tightness at

the point of engagement with the pulse (at the 3rd or organ depth).

However, you would not use the term 'nervous system weak' with this

pulse quality if the other conditions were not present.

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

Rory -

 

I take it you don't recall the tables Leon handed out entitled 'Qi Wild' pulses?

 

However, as you indicate, he and Dr. Shen usually used the four methods to render a diagnosis of 'Qi Wild' or 'Nervous System Tense' in practice. These are not pulse images per se.

 

Will

 

In a message dated 1/14/02 2:33:07 PM Pacific Standard Time, rorykerr writes:

 

 

Z'ev, to the best of my knowledge there is no such thing as a qi wild pulse offered by either John Shen or Leon Hammer. Qi wild is a condition of chaotic disorder, that may be deduced by diagnosis by the 4 methods. I've heard it equated to the separation of yin and yang. There are several possible pulse qualities (for example the rootless qualities) that could help define the condition, but that would only be part of the diagnosis. These pulse qualities can also be present when there is no 'qi wild' condition. There should be indications in the persons other symptoms and disease process, before using that term.

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

> Since you have made it clear that you failed

> to gain anything of substantial benefit from

> your study ofChinese medical language, which

> is why you gave up the study and now characterize

> it as being an economically unwise investment

> of time and effort, it is quite easy to take

> everything you say on the subject with a grain

> of salt.

> >>>I could reverse this and say since you have invested " your self "

within it so deeply your judgment may be questionable as well

 

You sure could. In fact, I think you just

did.

 

Do I understand you correctly to be saying

that if people do not devote themselves to

the rigorous study of a subject they are

thereby qualified to put forth their opinions of

that subject, but if they do devote " themselves "

then they are not?

 

That is an innovative approach.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Rory, thanks for the clarification.

 

 

On Monday, January 14, 2002, at 03:07 PM, Rory Kerr wrote:

 

> At 11:22 AM -0800 1/14/02, ALON MARCUS wrote:

> wrote:

>

>  don't see how 'nervous system' pulse can be a useful description if it

> is not talking about the actual nervous system. It may be clear to you,

> but try teaching it to a class of forty students.

>

> >>I was talking about sensation of pulses not interpretations. Shen

> however has formulas for each of these pulses

>

> --

>

> At the risk of being repetitive, I have not heard either Leon Hammer or

> John Shen use the term nervous system pulse in the way implied here. My

> understanding is that John Shen defined 2 conditions, 'nervous system

> tense' & 'nervous system weak'. Neither of these conditions are defined

> solely by the pulse, but are terms used to describe general disorders

> or tendencies, which are hard to categorize according to standard

> pattern ID because they have several mild and variable symptoms from

> different systems, and no distinct disease.

>

[Guest guest]

At 11:16 PM -0500

1/14/02, WMorris116 wrote:

I take it you don't recall the tables Leon handed out

entitled 'Qi Wild' pulses?

 

However, as you indicate, he and Dr. Shen usually used the four

methods to render a diagnosis of 'Qi Wild' or 'Nervous System Tense'

in practice. These are not pulse images per se.

--

Good point - I think these tables are a confusing way to organize

the information.

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

Ken,

 

I agree that Prof. Shuai's response does substantiate your point of

view. He also said that such a thesis would have to discuss such

things as qi and blood, channels and network vessels, vacuity and

repletion, etc. Unfortunately, he did not offer to write such a

thesis. Also unfortunately, although I gave every person I queried the

URL for this discussion, none seem to have been inclined to join this

discussion directly themselves.

 

As the CEO of a company with three divisions which are growing at an

average rate of 30% per year, I'm frustrated by not having the leisure

to make this forum a priority. I agree that these topics deserve a

full, well thought-out discussion to do them justice. Unfortunately, I

don't typically have the time for that. My partners already questioin

the ROI on my participation in this forum during " company hours. " I'm

envious that you seem to have unlimited time to respond in such great

depth and with such focus to even those who seem to kvetch for the

sake of kvetching. I keep trying to retire, but all my attempts in

that direction seem to involve me ever more complexly in the business

(i.e., busy-ness).

 

Bob

 

, " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote:

> Bob,

>

> You're an amazing guy. I want you to know

> how highly I value your dedication and your

> persistence. Despite whatever differences

> we have on this or that point, I consider

> it an honor to take part in these discussions

> with you.

>

> Thank you for posting these final results

> of your poll. I believe they reemphasize

> one of the points that Jason made about

> the necessity of including the rationale

> for interpretation of terms, term choices,

> etc.

>

>

> However, in a larger sense, if by connection and

> > communication, one means " in normal functioning order, " then these

> > terms might also be considered ok in relationship to pain. Dr.

> Shuai

> > felt that a full exposition of this would require an entire

thesis.

> >

> Since this is more or less precisely what

> I was trying to say at the beginning of

> this thread, I would add that the contents

> of such a thesis would have to include

> an investigation into presumed notions of

> anatomy and physiology that would explore

> the meaning of such fundamental concepts

> as qi4, jing1 luo4, etc.

>

> That was the conversation that I've been

> hoping to have with you about this.

>

> Ken

[Guest guest]

 

----- Original Message Do I understand you correctly to be saying that if people do not devote themselves to the rigorous study of a subject they are thereby qualified to put forth their opinions of that subject, but if they do devote "themselves" then they are not?

>>>No what I am saying is that it is certly posible to loos perspective

Alon-----

dragon90405

Monday, January 14, 2002 6:41 PM

Re: Flow or Connection?

Alon,> Since you have made it clear that you failed > to gain anything of substantial benefit from > your study ofChinese medical language, which > is why you gave up the study and now characterize > it as being an economically unwise investment> of time and effort, it is quite easy to take > everything you say on the subject with a grain > of salt.> >>>I could reverse this and say since you have invested "your self" within it so deeply your judgment may be questionable as wellYou sure could. In fact, I think you justdid.Do I understand you correctly to be saying that if people do not devote themselves to the rigorous study of a subject they are thereby qualified to put forth their opinions of that subject, but if they do devote "themselves" then they are not?That is an innovative approach.KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Shen however has formulas for each of these pulses

>>>Should have said conditions. But again I like many of Leon's pulse names has they do a better job at describing the actual sensation one feels

Alon

 

-

 

Monday, January 14, 2002 6:51 PM

Re: Re: Flow or Connection?

Rory, thanks for the clarification. On Monday, January 14, 2002, at 03:07 PM, Rory Kerr wrote:

At 11:22 AM -0800 1/14/02, ALON MARCUS wrote: wrote: don't see how 'nervous system' pulse can be a useful description if it is not talking about the actual nervous system. It may be clear to you, but try teaching it to a class of forty students.>>I was talking about sensation of pulses not interpretations. Shen however has formulas for each of these pulses--At the risk of being repetitive, I have not heard either Leon Hammer or John Shen use the term nervous system pulse in the way implied here. My understanding is that John Shen defined 2 conditions, 'nervous system tense' & 'nervous system weak'. Neither of these conditions are defined solely by the pulse, but are terms used to describe general disorders or tendencies, which are hard to categorize according to standard pattern ID because they have several mild and variable symptoms from different systems, and no distinct disease.

[Guest guest]

I do not have a problem with proposing something like a 'cotton' pulse,

or descriptions of clinical phenomena, especially in modern practice

where we sometimes see very bizarre stuff with mixed patterns and lots

of drugs. I do have a problem with this type of material being

presented in a 'standard textbook' format. These observations should

have been presented to the professional community for peer review and to

be tested in the clinic, ideally (recognizing that the present situation

is hardly ideal). Just as when new medicinal substances are proposed

for the Chinese materia medica, they should be reviewed, scrutinized,

confirmed and tested.

 

Part of the problem is the lack of English language material on pulse

diagnosis. When a book like this appears, it takes on the appearance of

an authoritative textbook.

 

Obviously Dr. Shen, and his student Dr. Hammer, were able to collect

some very interesting material on patients and their pulses, and I can

confirm with my own insights what is described as " qi wild " . When this

material, however, is presented to a practitioner base that is still

largely unskilled in pulse diagnosis, without an agreed upon terminology

for those pulses, in my opinion this only leads to more confusion.

 

I think some steps to produce clarity need to be taken here.

 

 

On Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 08:47 AM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

> Shen however has formulas for each of these pulses

> >>>Should have said conditions. But again I like many of Leon's pulse

> names has they do a better job at describing the actual sensation one

> feels

> Alon

[Guest guest]

'standard textbook' format. These observations should have been presented to the professional community for peer review and to be tested in the clinic

>>>>well, does any of the other material that we except as gospel have really gone through true peer review?

Alon

 

-

 

Tuesday, January 15, 2002 11:18 AM

Re: Re: Flow or Connection?

I do not have a problem with proposing something like a 'cotton' pulse, or descriptions of clinical phenomena, especially in modern practice where we sometimes see very bizarre stuff with mixed patterns and lots of drugs. I do have a problem with this type of material being presented in a 'standard textbook' format. These observations should have been presented to the professional community for peer review and to be tested in the clinic, ideally (recognizing that the present situation is hardly ideal). Just as when new medicinal substances are proposed for the Chinese materia medica, they should be reviewed, scrutinized, confirmed and tested.Part of the problem is the lack of English language material on pulse diagnosis. When a book like this appears, it takes on the appearance of an authoritative textbook.Obviously Dr. Shen, and his student Dr. Hammer, were able to collect some very interesting material on patients and their pulses, and I can confirm with my own insights what is described as "qi wild". When this material, however, is presented to a practitioner base that is still largely unskilled in pulse diagnosis, without an agreed upon terminology for those pulses, in my opinion this only leads to more confusion.I think some steps to produce clarity need to be taken here.On Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 08:47 AM, Alon Marcus wrote:

Shen however has formulas for each of these pulses>>>Should have said conditions. But again I like many of Leon's pulse names has they do a better job at describing the actual sensation one feelsAlon

[Guest guest]

No, not really. And that is a problem. Does state or national board

approval have to be the only standard for textbooks?

 

Paradigm Press and Blue Poppy I know have a type of peer review process,

Bob Felt and Bob Flaws can probably do a better job of answering your

question. I know that many of the newer Eastland Press textbooks also

are reviewed by senior teachers and practitioners, including myself.

 

 

 

 

On Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 04:43 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

> 'standard textbook' format. These observations should have been

> presented to the professional community for peer review and to be

> tested in the clinic

> >>>>well, does any of the other material that we except as gospel have

> really gone through true peer review?

> Alon

>

[Guest guest]

Z've I am talking about Chinese materials including so called classical work

Alon

 

-

 

Tuesday, January 15, 2002 7:13 PM

Re: Re: Flow or Connection?

No, not really. And that is a problem. Does state or national board approval have to be the only standard for textbooks?Paradigm Press and Blue Poppy I know have a type of peer review process, Bob Felt and Bob Flaws can probably do a better job of answering your question. I know that many of the newer Eastland Press textbooks also are reviewed by senior teachers and practitioners, including myself. On Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 04:43 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

'standard textbook' format. These observations should have been presented to the professional community for peer review and to be tested in the clinic>>>>well, does any of the other material that we except as gospel have really gone through true peer review?Alon

[Guest guest]

At 6:43 PM -0600 1/15/02, Alon Marcus wrote:

>'standard textbook' format. These observations should have been

>presented to the professional community for peer review and to be

>tested in the clinic

> >>>>well, does any of the other material that we except as gospel

>have really gone through true peer review?

--

I imagine (but don't know for sure) that the Chinese textbooks like

Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion, and Fundamentals of Chinese

Medicine, must have gone through rather careful review processes, as

they are used in Chinese medical schools.

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion, and Fundamentals of , must have gone through rather careful review processes, as they are used in Chinese medical schools

>>>Modern texts yes

Alon

 

-

Rory Kerr

Tuesday, January 15, 2002 9:19 PM

Re: Re: Flow or Connection?

At 6:43 PM -0600 1/15/02, Alon Marcus wrote:>'standard textbook' format. These observations should have been >presented to the professional community for peer review and to be >tested in the clinic> >>>>well, does any of the other material that we except as gospel >have really gone through true peer review?--I imagine (but don't know for sure) that the Chinese textbooks like Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion, and Fundamentals of , must have gone through rather careful review processes, as they are used in Chinese medical schools.Rory-- Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

At 1:39 AM -0600 1/16/02, Alon Marcus

wrote:

Chinese

Acupuncture and Moxibustion, and Fundamentals of Chinese

Medicine, must have gone through rather careful review processes,

as

they are used in Chinese medical schools

>>>Modern texts yes

--

Meaning what? If you think there are examples of classic texts

that haven't been reviewed, give us examples...

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

Beginning in 2000, Blue Poppy Press did institute a peer review

process that has two steps to it. That process begins with our

Acquistions (or selection) Committee. This committee is made up of

myself as CM technical editor, our sales & marketing manager (who is

also a Dipl. Ac. & Fellow of the NAAOM), our production manager, and

our bookkeeper. At this initial meeting, book proposals are presented

to the committee. Myself and Honora Wolfe make an initial judgement

about the technical quality of the Chinese medicine. I also make a

technical judgement about the English language used and how difficult

the book will be to edit. The production manager then determines if

there are any special difficulties in terms of design and production,

such as the necessity of creating illustrations, how many there would

need to be, where these are going to come from, how much they would

cost, whether the book should be a hardback or paperback, etc. The

sales and marketing manager looks at the potential market and projects

estimated number of sales over the first one and three years of

publication. She also come sup with a basic marketing plan for the

first year. Then the bookkeeper figures the ROI and discusses other

competing concerns such as cash flow.

 

As part of this initial review process, the author(s) must submit a

resume or curriculum vitae. As published on our Website in the FAQ

section, we only accept books from authors who meet certain basic

criteria. First, at least one author must be able to read at least one

Far East Asian language germane to the topic at hand. Secondly, at

least one author must have been in practice not less than five years

and, preferrably, more than 10. We also require a bibliography showing

what sort of literary sources they are drawing from. If there is not

an already completed ms., then we need to see the Introduction, the

Table of Contents, and at least one chapter containing CM technical

materials. Therefore, just our submission process tends to separate

the sheep from the goats. We receive numerous book proposals from

students and recent graduates who do not meet the above credential

requirements which we reject pretty much out of hand. If the authors

of a book proposal do not meet our credential requirements, the

proposal never makes it to the Acquistions Committee.

 

If a book proposal makes it through this committee, a contract is

negotiated and written, and the manuscript is submitted, the book goes

through its initial edit. If the book is meant as a potential standard

textbook, then, before going to the page designer, it is sent to 10-12

peer reviewers. This is the second technical review process. These are

all professional practitioners of acupuncture and Chinese medicine.

Typically, we try to choose a combination of Lic.Acs, MDs, DCs,

teachers, and clinicians. We then ask these readers their opinions

about the book and, more importantly, we also ask for their

suggestions for improvement or correction. This allows us to in-put

such additions, modifications, suggestions, and corrections before the

book goes to the designer. (The names of these peer reviewers along

with their credentials are published in the front of the book.) Then

the pages are designed and the book is sent out to a professional

proofreader for a first proofread. When the proofreader sends back

their corrections, these are in-put and the book is sent out for a

second proofread. If there are still corrections to be made from this

second proofing, these are in-put and someone here goes through the

book one more time before the book is sent to press. Then the printer

creates a press proof which is sent back to us and someone here goes

through it yet one more, final time.

 

In addition, since 2000, BPP has switched from publishing books meant

as potential textbooks written by a single author to books that have

been co-authored by a team, thus insuring that at least two

aknowledged experts are working on a project and the book is not the

sole creation of a single person. Examples of this new co-authoring

process are Dr. Lake's and my Chinese Medical Psychiatry, Philippe

Sionneau's and my The Treatment of Modern Western Medical Diseases

with , and Dr. Casanas', Lynn Kuchinski's and my The

Treatment of Diabetes with (due to be released in

Spring 2002). We also have a couple of other similar medical specialty

textbooks in the works written by such teams (one on cardiovascular

diseases and, hopefully, one on nephrology).

 

I hope this gives some idea of how Blue Poppy Press titles are

currently being reviewed and vetted prior to the ink hitting the page.

 

Bob

 

, " " <zrosenbe@s...>

wrote:

> No, not really. And that is a problem. Does state or national

board

> approval have to be the only standard for textbooks?

>

> Paradigm Press and Blue Poppy I know have a type of peer review

process,

> Bob Felt and Bob Flaws can probably do a better job of answering

your

> question. I know that many of the newer Eastland Press textbooks

also

> are reviewed by senior teachers and practitioners, including myself.

>

>

>

>

> On Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 04:43 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

>

> > 'standard textbook' format. These observations should have been

> > presented to the professional community for peer review and to be

> > tested in the clinic

> > >>>>well, does any of the other material that we except as gospel

have

> > really gone through true peer review?

> > Alon

> >

[Guest guest]

Meaning what? If you think there are examples of classic texts that haven't been reviewed, give us examples

>>>do you think for example that Li Dang's writing went through some kind of peer review as they were created

Alon

 

-

Rory Kerr

Wednesday, January 16, 2002 4:33 AM

Re: Re: Flow or Connection?

 

At 1:39 AM -0600 1/16/02, Alon Marcus wrote:

Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion, and Fundamentals of ChineseMedicine, must have gone through rather careful review processes, asthey are used in Chinese medical schools

>>>Modern texts yes

--

Meaning what? If you think there are examples of classic texts that haven't been reviewed, give us examples...

 

Rory-- Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

At 9:29 AM -0800 1/16/02, ALON MARCUS wrote:

>do you think for example that Li Dang's writing went through some

>kind of peer review as they were created

--

 

Who is Li Dang?

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

Li Dang

>>>Sp St

Alon

 

-

Rory Kerr

Friday, January 18, 2002 7:30 AM

Re: Re: Flow or Connection?

At 9:29 AM -0800 1/16/02, ALON MARCUS wrote:>do you think for example that Li Dang's writing went through some >kind of peer review as they were created--Who is Li Dang?Rory-- Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.