Guest guest Posted January 10, 2002 Report Share Posted January 10, 2002 <<<IT is Moot as far as I’m concerned… The reality is no one knows and an argument like this is all speculation (from the original text)… But thanx for the post…<<< Agree, the Shang Han Lun was first written as such by Wang Shu-he who collected it from bits and pieces of the Shang Han Za Bing Lun, Zhang Zhong-jing's work. Then it was lost again and printed in the Song (!) Dynasty, almost 1000 years later. And not even that first print exists today but rather a later print from that Song version. It is even speculated that the arrangement of the book according to the six channels was Wang Shu-he's idea and not Zhang Zhong-jing's. He may have arranged it according to treatment principles. This is introduction material in Mitchell, Feng, and Wiseman's version. Simon Becker -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----Von: []Gesendet: Donnerstag, 10. Januar 2002 17:24An: Betreff: RE: Re: SHL WMorris116 [WMorris116] Thursday, January 10, 2002 12:55 AM Subject: Re: SHL Dear Friends, I had a moment with Yang Tiande and inquired about pulse mastery by Jiang Ji. Dr. Yang's response was an emphatic "Yes, of course he was a master of pulse diagnosis." I asked whether the pulse was considered critical in SHL, he responded "It was the most important." I Dr Yang: "Because it is the first line in every section." Well… This is just not true, at least in my versions…??? So we all have different opinions, doesn’t mean any of them are right (or wrong), but as Ken was requesting in a previous conversation, The logic of one’s decision is much more important than what one’s teacher or friend has said. Anyone can find people to say anything, and then argue that this or that person has more credentials… IT is Moot as far as I’m concerned… The reality is no one knows and an argument like this is all speculation (from the original text)… But thanx for the post… -Jason .. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2002 Report Share Posted January 10, 2002 Yes, The SHL as we have it is kind of patchwork. But there is a section on SHL pulse that has been separated from the text, (included in the Mai Jing), " Zhang Zhang-jing's Treatise on the Pulse " that has more detail than in the SHL itself. Was is written by Wang Shu-he? Je ne sais pas . But the pulse material in the SHL, in my opinion, is entirely appropriate for the patterns that are discussed, i.e. relatively simple patterns of wai gan/external contraction. There are also interesting mentions of the fu yang pulse, St 42, and occasional mentions of acupuncture or moxa treatment. Obviously the author assumes a base of knowledge on the part of the reader, as there are no specific details on how to do the acu/moxa treatments, or feel body pulses. On Thursday, January 10, 2002, at 09:58 AM, Simon wrote: > > Agree, the Shang Han Lun was first written as such by Wang Shu-he who > collected it from bits and pieces of the Shang Han Za Bing Lun, Zhang > Zhong-jing's work. Then it was lost again and printed in the Song (!) > Dynasty, almost 1000 years later. And not even that first print exists > today but rather a later print from that Song version. It is even > speculated that the arrangement of the book according to the six > channels was Wang Shu-he's idea and not Zhang Zhong-jing's. He may have > arranged it according to treatment principles. This is introduction > material in Mitchell, Feng, and Wiseman's version. > > > > Simon Becker > > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: [] > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 10. Januar 2002 17:24 > An: > Betreff: RE: Re: SHL > > > > > > > WMorris116 [WMorris116] > Sent:Thursday, January 10, 200212:55 AM > > Re: SHL > > > > Dear Friends, > I had a moment with Yang Tiande and inquired about pulse mastery by > Jiang Ji. Dr. Yang's response was an emphatic " Yes, of course he was a > master of pulse diagnosis. " I asked whether the pulse was considered > critical in SHL, he responded " It was the most important. " > > > > > I Dr Yang: " Because it is the first line in every section. " > > > > > > Well… This is just not true, at least in my versions…??? So we all have > different opinions, doesn’t mean any of them are right (or wrong), but > as Ken was requesting in a previous conversation, The logic of one’s > decision is much more important than what one’s teacher or friend has > said. Anyone can find people to say anything, and then argue that this > or that person has more credentials… IT is Moot as far as I’m > concerned… The reality is no one knows and an argument like this is > all speculation (from the original text)… But thanx for the post… > > > > -Jason > > > > . > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2002 Report Share Posted January 10, 2002 >>>Agree, the Shang Han Lun was first written as such by Wang Shu-he who collected it from bits and pieces of the Shang Han Za Bing Lun, Zhang Zhong-jing's work. <<< It should at least be noted that as an undergraduate student at the Beijing University of TCM, Yang Tiende actually memorized the SHL word for word. Is that dedication or stupidity? I have not found Dr. Yang to be a stupid man. Though it is true as Jason mentioned, it is all opinion, when it comes to the SHL, I give Dr. Yang a lot of credit. -- Al Stone L.Ac. <AlStone http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2002 Report Share Posted January 10, 2002 I agree, Al. It is dedication, and his words deserve our deep respect. Some opinions are more weighty than others. Again, we must remember that the SHL has been the source of much scholarly debate and commentary for many centuries. On Thursday, January 10, 2002, at 11:23 AM, Al Stone wrote: > > > > It should at least be noted that as an undergraduate student at the > Beijing University of TCM, Yang Tiende actually memorized the SHL word > for word. > > Is that dedication or stupidity? > > I have not found Dr. Yang to be a stupid man. Though it is true as > Jason mentioned, it is all opinion, when it comes to the SHL, I give Dr. > Yang a lot of credit. > > -- > Al Stone L.Ac. > <AlStone > http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2002 Report Share Posted January 11, 2002 At 8:23 AM -0800 1/10/02, wrote: Anyone can find people to say anything, and then argue that this or that person has more credentialsŠ IT is Moot as far as I'm concernedŠ The reality is no one knows and an argument like this is all speculation (from the original text)Š But thanx for the postŠ At 11:06 AM -0800 1/10/02, wrote: But there is a section on SHL pulse that has been separated from the text, (included in the Mai Jing), " Zhang Zhang-jing's Treatise on the Pulse " that has more detail than in the SHL itself. -- I'm not sure how or why this got started. As Zev points out, there is a section in the Pulse Classic by Zhang. In addition to that there are several references in other places in the Pulse Classic that make it clear he was considered an authority on the pulse in and about his own time, (see p xi, Blue Poppy Press), where he is one of the 3 people mentioned as " ...the most excellent of physicians... " . So this is not simply speculation; there is good evidence. Also, anyone who has read the SHL and used the SHL in practice would know that Zhang's pulse information is essential to understanding his diagnostic system. That could hardly have been put together without experience and understanding. Rory -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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