fightin' words

[Guest guest]

, " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote:

> Alon,

>

> > Since you have made it clear that you failed

> > to gain anything of substantial benefit from

> > your study ofChinese medical language, which

> > is why you gave up the study and now characterize

> > it as being an economically unwise investment

> > of time and effort, it is quite easy to take

> > everything you say on the subject with a grain

> > of salt.

> > >>>I could reverse this and say since you have invested " your

self "

> within it so deeply your judgment may be questionable as well

>

> You sure could. In fact, I think you just

> did.

>

 

Normally I don't get mixed up in arguments like this (especially

since the gloves sure seemed to come off after the accusations of

onanism started flying), but this morning I feel strangely compelled

to chime in.

 

Alon's argument (if I've got this right) is that one's time is better

spent in learning biomedicine than medical Chinese, and he cites a

lack of evidence that learning medical Chinese can improve clinical

outcomes, which is his major concern.

 

While I'm not sure what evidence would be convincing, perhaps some

specific anecdotes would prove helpful -- I read a number of people

here who mention that the knowledge of medical Chinese has helped

them in improving outcomes, but no one to my knowledge has come forth

with a f'rinstance. So here's a little one from me.

 

I had a patient a couple of years ago who was coming in for fertility

treatments. She was in good health and the problems were

uncomplicated by any lesions etc so I thought it would be rather

easy. I was doing regular acupuncture and Danggui & Peony powder,

and months and months went by and nothing was happening. So I

happened to be squinting at Ikeda Masakazu's Dentou Shinkyuu Chiryou

Hou -- which I'd been " reading " very slowly and with a lot of effort

since my Japanese skills are abysmal -- and I came across a reference

to " Chujo-style moxibustion " being a well-known treatment for

infertility. Since it was unknown to me, I asked several Japanese

colleagues about it, including Junji Mizutani who sent me a photocopy

of a chapter in one of Fukaya's books (in Japanese) about it. I read

the chapter -- again laboriously -- and applied the technique as

Fukaya explained it, and *voila* she was pregnant within a month.

Even she felt it was the moxibustion that had been the deciding

factor. Since then I have applied the technique with similar

outcomes, so personally I am satisfied that this particular technique

is likely to produce roughly the same outcome in similar populations.

 

To make a long story even longer and restate the obvious, here was

something that is taken almost as common knowledge in Japan that I

would have had no idea about if I hadn't stuck my nose into a book

filled with kanji.

 

To Ken:

I admire your devotion to this cause. I think two reasons why your

arguments cause such discomfort in many people (and I include myself

in this category) is that 1)you're so erudite its scary, 2)I get this

feeling that the implied message in your arguments is that we're all

lazy and incompetent if we don't take the time to learn medical

Chinese.

 

Ironically, the latter is the same reason many people balk at

learning biomedicine, as Alon would suggest.

 

While (again if I've got this straight after the numbing onslaught of

verbiage over the past week or so) you seem to have lowered the bar a

bit in saying that a little medical Chinese is better than none, at

other times you sort of go back to scaring folks by pointing out the

enormity of the challenge that you propose. For example, when Todd

mentions that there are 6,000 technical terms to learn, you gleefully

retort that the number is closer to 60,000.

 

I remember Jim posing the question but I apologize if I missed the

answer: How much is enough medical CHinese? I've been living in a

Spanish speaking household for well over a decade, and while I can

converse and read some I still can't say that I have a grasp on all

the nuances that a native speaker ten years of age would have. If

the exegesis of the tong1 character is so torturously intricate, how

much more so 59,999 other characters?

 

Essentially what I hear behind your arguments is the very thing that

raises hackles of non-Asian practitioners everywhere: if you aren't

Asian by birth or culture, you have no business practicing this type

of medicine.

 

I realize that this is not what you mean to say but I think this is

the perceived subtext, which is why you are meeting with a lot of

resistance, even in people who are motivated about the medicine to

engage in this high-ish level discussion list.

 

Anyway, my rant.

 

regards,

Robert Hayden, L.Ac.

http://jabinet.net

[Guest guest]

, " kampo36 " <kampo36> wrote:

and I came across a reference

> to " Chujo-style moxibustion " being a well-known treatment for

> infertility. Since it was unknown to me, I asked several Japanese

> colleagues about it, including Junji Mizutani who sent me a

photocopy of a chapter in one of Fukaya's books (in Japanese) about

it. I read the chapter -- again laboriously -- and applied the

technique as Fukaya explained it, and *voila* she was pregnant

within a month. Even she felt it was the moxibustion that had been

the deciding factor. Since then I have applied the technique with

similar outcomes, so personally I am satisfied that this particular

technique is likely to produce roughly the same outcome in similar

populations.

 

 

Robert:

 

Can you describe the specific moxa technique?

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

> Alon's argument (if I've got this right) is that one's time is better

> spent in learning biomedicine than medical Chinese, and he cites a

> lack of evidence that learning medical Chinese can improve clinical

> outcomes, which is his major concern.

>

 

Just to add a few thoughts:

1) How can you ever gauge if someone's outcomes are better because of

some Chinese that they have learned or something else, that is an absurd

request. You can never prove that.

2) FACT: there is much VERY useful clinical information that is only

available in Chinese. This information can't help but improve one's

results, especially with all the new research that is coming out. Just

as in Biomedicine, new discoveries occur, the same is true in China and

CM, The medicine IS NOT static as many believe. Alon and others may use

a very effective integrative approach (osteopath, orthopedic) that

relies less on straight CM - making material much more available

(English) etc... But when it comes to internal medicine and herbs there

is not sub for CM literature.

3) FACT: Just on an understanding of basic theory, there is still much

that is not translated. One major thing that is left out of the English

books is the pathomechanisms. This is one of the most useful bits of

info when trying to understand theory/ a disease process and applying it

to real cases. IT takes the cookbook style approach that is prevalent

at the low levels of CM to an level or expertise. IT allows one to

understands the disease on a fluid instead of static level. Modifying

rx's much more effectively. Translating just 1 paragraph, can enable

one to have a completely new understanding of the disease process that

is NOT available in English (many of the times). For more on

understanding the importance of this, check out Bob Damone's lecture

series with Blue Poppy Press.

4) Finally, IMO, learning just a little Chinese will not improve

clinical results. IT will give some insights into the culture, and

provide a deeper understanding of the medicine and appreciation for the

past. This in turn might indirectly improve results. But with a little

work, one can read the textbooks and understand the disease process in

ways that have not be communicated into English.

 

-

[Guest guest]

, " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote:

>

> Robert:

>

> Can you describe the specific moxa technique?

>

> Jim Ramholz

 

Hi Jim,

 

Actually, I believe it is the same points given in Deadman as

Sanjiaojiu. The width of the patient's smile is measured and an

equilateral triangle is made with the navel as the apex. The navel

is not treated but the other two points (roughly around ST27) are

burned with direct moxa, I believe Fukaya said 21 half-rice-grain

sized each. If I'm mistaken about the number, that's at least how I

do the tx. I usually combine it with a root tx (Meridian Therapy or

Sawada style), but I think the Chujo moxa is pretty much specific to

fertility tx.

 

Take care,

Robert

[Guest guest]

biomedicine than medical Chinese, and he cites a lack of evidence that learning medical Chinese can improve clinical outcomes, which is his major concern.>>>>Robert,

I am not suggesting that time is better served learning biomedicine. I think a clinician should spend as much time studying any type of information that is helpful. And as I have already conceded knowing Chinese or Japanese does give one much more excess to information. That is obvious and I am sure some, or much of the information could be very useful and we all be better served if we could read it. The question is more about the ability to understand the principles of TCM. That is all I am questioning. Perhaps I am misunderstood.

Can you share with us the moxa protocol

Thanks Alon

 

-

kampo36

Tuesday, January 15, 2002 9:10 AM

fightin' words

, "dragon90405" <yulong@m...> wrote:> Alon,> > > Since you have made it clear that you failed > > to gain anything of substantial benefit from > > your study ofChinese medical language, which > > is why you gave up the study and now characterize > > it as being an economically unwise investment> > of time and effort, it is quite easy to take > > everything you say on the subject with a grain > > of salt.> > >>>I could reverse this and say since you have invested "your self" > within it so deeply your judgment may be questionable as well> > You sure could. In fact, I think you just> did.> Normally I don't get mixed up in arguments like this (especially since the gloves sure seemed to come off after the accusations of onanism started flying), but this morning I feel strangely compelled to chime in.Alon's argument (if I've got this right) is that one's time is better spent in learning biomedicine than medical Chinese, and he cites a lack of evidence that learning medical Chinese can improve clinical outcomes, which is his major concern.While I'm not sure what evidence would be convincing, perhaps some specific anecdotes would prove helpful -- I read a number of people here who mention that the knowledge of medical Chinese has helped them in improving outcomes, but no one to my knowledge has come forth with a f'rinstance. So here's a little one from me.I had a patient a couple of years ago who was coming in for fertility treatments. She was in good health and the problems were uncomplicated by any lesions etc so I thought it would be rather easy. I was doing regular acupuncture and Danggui & Peony powder, and months and months went by and nothing was happening. So I happened to be squinting at Ikeda Masakazu's Dentou Shinkyuu Chiryou Hou -- which I'd been "reading" very slowly and with a lot of effort since my Japanese skills are abysmal -- and I came across a reference to "Chujo-style moxibustion" being a well-known treatment for infertility. Since it was unknown to me, I asked several Japanese colleagues about it, including Junji Mizutani who sent me a photocopy of a chapter in one of Fukaya's books (in Japanese) about it. I read the chapter -- again laboriously -- and applied the technique as Fukaya explained it, and *voila* she was pregnant within a month. Even she felt it was the moxibustion that had been the deciding factor. Since then I have applied the technique with similar outcomes, so personally I am satisfied that this particular technique is likely to produce roughly the same outcome in similar populations.To make a long story even longer and restate the obvious, here was something that is taken almost as common knowledge in Japan that I would have had no idea about if I hadn't stuck my nose into a book filled with kanji.To Ken:I admire your devotion to this cause. I think two reasons why your arguments cause such discomfort in many people (and I include myself in this category) is that 1)you're so erudite its scary, 2)I get this feeling that the implied message in your arguments is that we're all lazy and incompetent if we don't take the time to learn medical Chinese.Ironically, the latter is the same reason many people balk at learning biomedicine, as Alon would suggest.While (again if I've got this straight after the numbing onslaught of verbiage over the past week or so) you seem to have lowered the bar a bit in saying that a little medical Chinese is better than none, at other times you sort of go back to scaring folks by pointing out the enormity of the challenge that you propose. For example, when Todd mentions that there are 6,000 technical terms to learn, you gleefully retort that the number is closer to 60,000.I remember Jim posing the question but I apologize if I missed the answer: How much is enough medical CHinese? I've been living in a Spanish speaking household for well over a decade, and while I can converse and read some I still can't say that I have a grasp on all the nuances that a native speaker ten years of age would have. If the exegesis of the tong1 character is so torturously intricate, how much more so 59,999 other characters?Essentially what I hear behind your arguments is the very thing that raises hackles of non-Asian practitioners everywhere: if you aren't Asian by birth or culture, you have no business practicing this type of medicine. I realize that this is not what you mean to say but I think this is the perceived subtext, which is why you are meeting with a lot of resistance, even in people who are motivated about the medicine to engage in this high-ish level discussion list.Anyway, my rant.regards,Robert Hayden, L.Ac.http://jabinet.netThe Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

 

----- Original MessageFACT: there is much VERY useful clinical information that is onlyavailable in Chinese. This information can't help but improve one'sresults, especially with all the new research that is coming out.

>>>>>Agian this has never been my agument

Alon

-----

 

Tuesday, January 15, 2002 10:46 AM

RE: fightin' words

> Alon's argument (if I've got this right) is that one's time is better> spent in learning biomedicine than medical Chinese, and he cites a> lack of evidence that learning medical Chinese can improve clinical> outcomes, which is his major concern.> Just to add a few thoughts:1) How can you ever gauge if someone's outcomes are better because ofsome Chinese that they have learned or something else, that is an absurdrequest. You can never prove that.2) FACT: there is much VERY useful clinical information that is onlyavailable in Chinese. This information can't help but improve one'sresults, especially with all the new research that is coming out. Justas in Biomedicine, new discoveries occur, the same is true in China andCM, The medicine IS NOT static as many believe. Alon and others may usea very effective integrative approach (osteopath, orthopedic) thatrelies less on straight CM - making material much more available(English) etc... But when it comes to internal medicine and herbs thereis not sub for CM literature.3) FACT: Just on an understanding of basic theory, there is still muchthat is not translated. One major thing that is left out of the Englishbooks is the pathomechanisms. This is one of the most useful bits ofinfo when trying to understand theory/ a disease process and applying itto real cases. IT takes the cookbook style approach that is prevalentat the low levels of CM to an level or expertise. IT allows one tounderstands the disease on a fluid instead of static level. Modifyingrx's much more effectively. Translating just 1 paragraph, can enableone to have a completely new understanding of the disease process thatis NOT available in English (many of the times). For more onunderstanding the importance of this, check out Bob Damone's lectureseries with Blue Poppy Press.4) Finally, IMO, learning just a little Chinese will not improveclinical results. IT will give some insights into the culture, andprovide a deeper understanding of the medicine and appreciation for thepast. This in turn might indirectly improve results. But with a littlework, one can read the textbooks and understand the disease process inways that have not be communicated into English.-Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

One major thing that is left out of the Englishbooks is the pathomechanisms.

 

Jason

 

>>>>>I have never been to a good lecture here at school, from my teachers and in china were pathomechanisms were not the central part of the information. However, It is my personal opinion (and has nothing to do with TCM thinking it self) is that it is also the were what I like to call theoretical make stuff up has been in the literature for a long time. It may be nice to read the coming and goings of systems of correspondence and how these can lead to that and therefore this and that can or will occur etc. But it too often has nothing to do with the complex real life diseases we see. And I believe from what I have seen in the Clinics in China that this process often fails.

I have been reading Bobs new book of treatment of biomedical diseases, in which I think they did an EXCELLENT job, but which is also an example of this process.

 

But going back to this argument. I am not saying that knowing Chinese is not beneficial. I only question that one can not understand "the medicine" if one does not understand the complexity of the characters "in Chinese".

 

Also, the personal statement I made is that I have a lot of materials in English from personal translations done by friends in china, class notes from school, and the constantly growing publications (and yes Ken, I can not verify for myself that they did not make mistakes) to meet most of my needs, and true I see about 60% musculoskeletal disorders in my practice.

Also to tell you the truth I don't think it possible for anyone to truly absorb the material I have in my liberties at it is. So for me time spent on learning Chinese has never been rewarding enough.

 

What I am still open to and still question is that I am somehow missing on understanding TCM because I do not know Chinese.And that it is somehow not transmittable in translation.

Hope this makes things clear.

Alon

 

-

 

Tuesday, January 15, 2002 10:46 AM

RE: fightin' words

> Alon's argument (if I've got this right) is that one's time is better> spent in learning biomedicine than medical Chinese, and he cites a> lack of evidence that learning medical Chinese can improve clinical> outcomes, which is his major concern.> Just to add a few thoughts:1) How can you ever gauge if someone's outcomes are better because ofsome Chinese that they have learned or something else, that is an absurdrequest. You can never prove that.2) FACT: there is much VERY useful clinical information that is onlyavailable in Chinese. This information can't help but improve one'sresults, especially with all the new research that is coming out. Justas in Biomedicine, new discoveries occur, the same is true in China andCM, The medicine IS NOT static as many believe. Alon and others may usea very effective integrative approach (osteopath, orthopedic) thatrelies less on straight CM - making material much more available(English) etc... But when it comes to internal medicine and herbs thereis not sub for CM literature.3) FACT: Just on an understanding of basic theory, there is still muchthat is not translated. One major thing that is left out of the Englishbooks is the pathomechanisms. This is one of the most useful bits ofinfo when trying to understand theory/ a disease process and applying itto real cases. IT takes the cookbook style approach that is prevalentat the low levels of CM to an level or expertise. IT allows one tounderstands the disease on a fluid instead of static level. Modifyingrx's much more effectively. Translating just 1 paragraph, can enableone to have a completely new understanding of the disease process thatis NOT available in English (many of the times). For more onunderstanding the importance of this, check out Bob Damone's lectureseries with Blue Poppy Press.4) Finally, IMO, learning just a little Chinese will not improveclinical results. IT will give some insights into the culture, andprovide a deeper understanding of the medicine and appreciation for thepast. This in turn might indirectly improve results. But with a littlework, one can read the textbooks and understand the disease process inways that have not be communicated into English.-Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

Robert,

 

> I admire your devotion to this cause. I think two reasons why your

> arguments cause such discomfort in many people (and I include

myself

> in this category) is that 1)you're so erudite its scary, 2)I get

this

> feeling that the implied message in your arguments is that we're

all

> lazy and incompetent if we don't take the time to learn medical

> Chinese.

 

Thank you for your comments. I appreciate

your feedback. My main motivation in

participating in this forum is to learn

more of what people think about these

subjects.

 

I recognize that the message can be

daunting and that to tell people that

there has been something missing from

their education is a presumptuous thing

to do, but I haven't yet figured out

any other way to state what seems like an

obvious fact to me.

 

I'm not the least bit concerned or focused

on people's laziness. No one is lazier than

me. I am very much concerned about competence.

I believe that the entire issue is producing

clinical competence.

 

And I believe that the continued omission

of medical Chinese, along with the range of

subjects and materials that are included

in a proper study of the medical language,

from the curricula of Chinese medical schools

will continue to be an unnecessary challenge

for students, graduates, and practitioners

to overcome in their personal quest for

clinical competence.

 

One for one, people who have successfully

studied the language of Chinese medicine

have realized the enormous advantages that

such study provides.

>

> Ironically, the latter is the same reason many people balk at

> learning biomedicine, as Alon would suggest.

 

I think people, myself included, balk at

learning most things. But people who are

dedicated to become doctors ought to be

given the opportunity to at least have

a shot at learning the most fundamental

issues clearly. This, I believe, can only

be done properly and thoroughly through

reference to the Chinese language and to

the particular subset of the Chinese language

that is known as Chinese medical Chinese.

 

 

>

> While (again if I've got this straight after the numbing onslaught

of

> verbiage over the past week or so) you seem to have lowered the bar

a

> bit in saying that a little medical Chinese is better than none,

 

I haven't lowered any bars. When one begins

one does a little. If a little is properly

done, it leads to more. Personally I consider

learning to be a lifetime pursuit. I don't

know why anyone would go to the trouble of

having a mind if they didn't take the time

and trouble to constantly improve it.

 

at

> other times you sort of go back to scaring folks by pointing out

the

> enormity of the challenge that you propose.

 

It's scary. I may well be scaring people

by pointing out that the study of Chinese

medicine is a vast and complex task. But

it is. I think what is far scarier would

be to tell people that a tall mountain

or a vast ocean might be easily crossed.

This would lead people unsuspectingly

to engage in activities that might end up

costing them dearly for lack of proper

preparation. Part of the process of education

is the matriculation of students, and it

is not possible to correctly assess the

likely potential of students to succeed in

medical studies if they are not familiar

with the scope of the undertaking, at least

in general terms.

 

In other words, people who can be scared

off with a few words are probably better off

wherever they get scared off to than wasting

their time and money trying to become doctors.

 

For example, when Todd

> mentions that there are 6,000 technical terms to learn, you

gleefully

> retort that the number is closer to 60,000.

 

Personally, the size of the nomenclature

inspires dread and gloom in me. Not glee.

I have to learn it, too. And as I said,

few are lazier than I. Don't take my

word for it. Just ask my wife.

>

> I remember Jim posing the question but I apologize if I missed the

> answer: How much is enough medical CHinese? I've been living in a

> Spanish speaking household for well over a decade, and while I can

> converse and read some I still can't say that I have a grasp on all

> the nuances that a native speaker ten years of age would have. If

> the exegesis of the tong1 character is so torturously intricate,

how

> much more so 59,999 other characters?

 

There are some basics that you have to

get under your belt in order to proceed

with a reasonable expectation of success.

We're now putting together a course to

address this issue. I'm currently envisioning

a two year course that would bring a student

to the point where they could make routine

progress on their own or through a series

of continuing courses.

 

I can't post the details of " what's enough "

only because the answer is lying in pieces

on our desks. But believe me as soon as

we get it all assembled, we won't be shy

about letting others see it.

 

>

> Essentially what I hear behind your arguments is the very thing

that

> raises hackles of non-Asian practitioners everywhere: if you aren't

> Asian by birth or culture, you have no business practicing this

type

> of medicine.

 

Well, that is certainly and emphatically

not my message. Our entire focus is on how

to successfully transmit traditional Chinese

ideas to non-Chinese minds. If I believed

what you have stated, I wouldn't waste my

time.

 

Perhaps there is something even more terrible

behind my arguments. I believe that the

reception and acculturation of Chinese medicine

in this country has been highly influenced

by the philosophy of hedonism, which gave

the world the California lifestyle. This

philosophy holds that the only worthwhile

pursuit is pleasure. Anything that is bitter

or painful should be avoided altogether

and one should devote one's days to

whatever makes you feel good.

 

 

>

> I realize that this is not what you mean to say but I think this is

> the perceived subtext, which is why you are meeting with a lot of

> resistance,

 

I realize that this resistance exists and

I mean to meet it.

 

even in people who are motivated about the medicine to

> engage in this high-ish level discussion list.

 

My intention is to provide people with as

accurate a view as I can of the issues

as I see them. Beyond that I mean to exhort

the sincere students at their study and

to challenge those who agitate for lower

standards.

 

 

>

> Anyway, my rant.

>

And mine.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Last night, I was party to a conversation of students who thought it was

patently ridiculous that medical Chinese was not required for the

masters degree, not to say the doctorate (on a national level. PCOM

will require it). As one student, with a degree in pharmacology put it,

" to not study the language in which the majority of the subject matter

exists is not only negligent, but unprofessional " .

 

Among the students, there is a realization that simply memorizing

indications for points and herbs from an English language textbook is

not going to cut it in the profession, even as a bottom line entry level

standard.

 

The time is now. A little goes a long way, as Robert points out in his

investigations.

 

 

On Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 10:11 AM, dragon90405 wrote:

 

> Robert,

>

> > I admire your devotion to this cause.  I think two reasons why your

> > arguments cause such discomfort in many people (and I include

> myself

> > in this category) is that 1)you're so erudite its scary, 2)I get

> this

> > feeling that the implied message in your arguments is that we're

> all

> > lazy and incompetent if we don't take the time to learn medical

> > Chinese.

>

> Thank you for your comments. I appreciate

> your feedback. My main motivation in

> participating in this forum is to learn

> more of what people think about these

> subjects.

>

> I recognize that the message can be

> daunting and that to tell people that

> there has been something missing from

> their education is a presumptuous thing

> to do, but I haven't yet figured out

> any other way to state what seems like an

> obvious fact to me.

>

[Guest guest]

, " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote:

I believe that the

> reception and acculturation of Chinese medicine

> in this country has been highly influenced

> by the philosophy of hedonism, which gave

> the world the California lifestyle.

 

Hey, what's wrong with hedonism? Now you've raised my hackles.

 

[Guest guest]

Without the adventuresome spirit of " 60's type people " , with its

" can-do " attitude, willingness to take risks, and to follow through with

great enthusiasm, Chinese medicine may have entered the Western arena,

if at all, as an attenuated medical acupuncture adjunct technique. The

presence of large Chinese, Japanese and Korean communities in large

cities helped as well. But it took the '60's people to break the

cultural barriers and help introduce this medicine to the culture at

large. And, for me, that was the greatness of the 60's revolution. Not

the drugs or 'free love', (although the music was great), but the great

exchange of cultures that happened, and, to some degree, continues to

happen.

 

However, it is time for our profession to grow up. . . not to lose our

original inspiration, but to learn, teach and practice the subject with

the rigor it deserves.

 

 

On Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 11:11 AM, 1 wrote:

 

> , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote:

> I believe that the

> > reception and acculturation of Chinese medicine

> > in this country has been highly influenced

> > by the philosophy of hedonism, which gave

> > the world the California lifestyle.

>

> Hey, what's wrong with hedonism?  Now you've raised my hackles. 

>

 

>

>

>

 

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " " <zrosenbe@s...>

wrote:

> Last night, I was party to a conversation of students who thought it

was

> patently ridiculous that medical Chinese was not required for the

> masters degree, not to say the doctorate (on a national level. PCOM

> will require it). As one student, with a degree in pharmacology put

it,

> " to not study the language in which the majority of the subject

matter

> exists is not only negligent, but unprofessional " .

>

 

-- I would put " unprofessional " first and " negligent " second.

Negligent is a term in law that has potentially serious financial and

punitive repercussions. Perhaps more people will be prodded into

learning some medical Chinese when someone is sued for negligence for

practicing Chinese medicine while being ignorant of the literature. I

have been told that one can be sued for negligence as a doctor if one

does not keep up with the most important journals. For instance, if

you're hauled into court for using a treatment method that others

have found fault with, you can't use as your excuse the fact that you

didn't read the article in which that treatment was criticized. In

other words, courts assume that being professional means reading the

contemporary professional literature. Since, as it has been pointed

out, that literature is almost entirely in one or more Far East Asian

languages, not being able to read any of those languages might very

well be considered negligent in its legal sense. To make this

hypothesis more interesting, also consider that it is an insurance

statistic that doctors are sued on an average of once every seven

years. You could say it's only a matter of time.

 

Bob

 

 

> Among the students, there is a realization that simply memorizing

> indications for points and herbs from an English language textbook

is

> not going to cut it in the profession, even as a bottom line entry

level

> standard.

>

> The time is now. A little goes a long way, as Robert points out in

his

> investigations.

>

>

> On Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 10:11 AM, dragon90405 wrote:

>

> > Robert,

> >

> > > I admire your devotion to this cause.  I think two reasons why

your

> > > arguments cause such discomfort in many people (and I include

> > myself

> > > in this category) is that 1)you're so erudite its scary, 2)I get

> > this

> > > feeling that the implied message in your arguments is that we're

> > all

> > > lazy and incompetent if we don't take the time to learn medical

> > > Chinese.

> >

> > Thank you for your comments. I appreciate

> > your feedback. My main motivation in

> > participating in this forum is to learn

> > more of what people think about these

> > subjects.

> >

> > I recognize that the message can be

> > daunting and that to tell people that

> > there has been something missing from

> > their education is a presumptuous thing

> > to do, but I haven't yet figured out

> > any other way to state what seems like an

> > obvious fact to me.

> >

[Guest guest]

Jason,

 

Just to set the record straight, Bob Damone is teaching for Blue Poppy

Institute, not Blue Poppy Press. These are two different divisions of

the parent company, Blue Poppy Enterprises., Inc. In addition, there

is a third division, Blue Poppy Herbs. Blue Poppy Institute is an

educational organization which runs both live continuing medical

education seminars as well as a wide variety of Distance Learning

programs. Blue Poppy Institute has been awarded CEU-granting status by

all states which require CEUs from acupuncturists as well as

PDA-sponsorship status with the NCCAOM. Other current faculty of BPI

include Craig Mitchell, Charles (Chip) Chace, Robert Anderson, Honora

Lee Wolfe, Marilyn Allen, David Kailin, and myself, with Marnae Ergil

hopefully joining our faculty later this year. Blue Poppy Press only

publishes books, Research Reports, front office materials, and a

quarterly on-line CM journal (with 1,300 rs worldwide).

 

Bob

 

, " " <@o...> wrote:

> > Alon's argument (if I've got this right) is that one's time is

better

> > spent in learning biomedicine than medical Chinese, and he cites a

> > lack of evidence that learning medical Chinese can improve

clinical

> > outcomes, which is his major concern.

> >

>

> Just to add a few thoughts:

> 1) How can you ever gauge if someone's outcomes are better because

of

> some Chinese that they have learned or something else, that is an

absurd

> request. You can never prove that.

> 2) FACT: there is much VERY useful clinical information that is only

> available in Chinese. This information can't help but improve one's

> results, especially with all the new research that is coming out.

Just

> as in Biomedicine, new discoveries occur, the same is true in China

and

> CM, The medicine IS NOT static as many believe. Alon and others may

use

> a very effective integrative approach (osteopath, orthopedic) that

> relies less on straight CM - making material much more available

> (English) etc... But when it comes to internal medicine and herbs

there

> is not sub for CM literature.

> 3) FACT: Just on an understanding of basic theory, there is still

much

> that is not translated. One major thing that is left out of the

English

> books is the pathomechanisms. This is one of the most useful bits

of

> info when trying to understand theory/ a disease process and

applying it

> to real cases. IT takes the cookbook style approach that is

prevalent

> at the low levels of CM to an level or expertise. IT allows one to

> understands the disease on a fluid instead of static level.

Modifying

> rx's much more effectively. Translating just 1 paragraph, can

enable

> one to have a completely new understanding of the disease process

that

> is NOT available in English (many of the times). For more on

> understanding the importance of this, check out Bob Damone's lecture

> series with Blue Poppy Press.

> 4) Finally, IMO, learning just a little Chinese will not improve

> clinical results. IT will give some insights into the culture, and

> provide a deeper understanding of the medicine and appreciation for

the

> past. This in turn might indirectly improve results. But with a

little

> work, one can read the textbooks and understand the disease process

in

> ways that have not be communicated into English.

>

> -

[Guest guest]

Ken,

 

Thanks for clarifying some of these issues. You're absolutely

tireless in this regard. Again, apologies as I'm sure you've said

these things before but I usually read the digest so I end up

scrolling endlessly through all the recycled quotations and I know I

miss things as a result,

 

, " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote:

>

> There are some basics that you have to

> get under your belt in order to proceed

> with a reasonable expectation of success.

> We're now putting together a course to

> address this issue. I'm currently envisioning

> a two year course that would bring a student

> to the point where they could make routine

> progress on their own or through a series

> of continuing courses.

>

> I can't post the details of " what's enough "

> only because the answer is lying in pieces

> on our desks. But believe me as soon as

> we get it all assembled, we won't be shy

> about letting others see it.

>

 

" We " refers to...? You and your wife? The school at which you

teach? How do you envision implementing this program? As an

independent CEU certificate program or are you thinking of trying to

get the schools to adopt your curriculum?

 

> >

> > Essentially what I hear behind your arguments is the very thing

> that

> > raises hackles of non-Asian practitioners everywhere: if you

aren't

> > Asian by birth or culture, you have no business practicing this

> type

> > of medicine.

>

> Well, that is certainly and emphatically

> not my message. Our entire focus is on how

> to successfully transmit traditional Chinese

> ideas to non-Chinese minds. If I believed

> what you have stated, I wouldn't waste my

> time.

 

Again, thank you for making this clear. I think this is an important

issue which gets skirted around sometimes -- the sort of nagging

inferiority complex many non-Asian practitioners have hanging over

them. I remember hearing one experienced Western TCM practitioner

talking about how we " don't need to be beholden to these people

(meaning Asian teachers) anymore " . The " insider/outsider " dynamic is

very complex and may come out in hostile ways if it is not properly

aired and addressed.

 

>

> Perhaps there is something even more terrible

> behind my arguments. I believe that the

> reception and acculturation of Chinese medicine

> in this country has been highly influenced

> by the philosophy of hedonism, which gave

> the world the California lifestyle. This

> philosophy holds that the only worthwhile

> pursuit is pleasure. Anything that is bitter

> or painful should be avoided altogether

> and one should devote one's days to

> whatever makes you feel good.

>

>

 

Again, I think these are all very real issues that need to be talked

about -- feelings and attitudes are very important in promoting

change and can often get shoved aside as people strive to put on

their professional " game face " . My wife works in the area of

diversity training and these kinds of things get discussed quite a

bit around the house. People need to not feel attacked about the way

they think and feel but at the same time need to be nudged toward

honest personal and professional self-examination if any meaningful

changes are going to happen. It's a very tricky thing. People differ

as to the rate at which they can be brought to challenge their own

assumptions, and strategies to implement change differ (Malcolm vs

MLK, for example), but I think ultimately what you Ken are doing is

extremely valuable and necessary...... even if you cut a little close

to the comfort zone sometimes....

 

robert

[Guest guest]

> , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote:

> I believe that the

> > reception and acculturation of Chinese medicine

> > in this country has been highly influenced

> > by the philosophy of hedonism, which gave

> > the world the California lifestyle.

 

 

Dude, chill. ;-)

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

Robert,

>

> Thanks for clarifying some of these issues. You're absolutely

> tireless in this regard. Again, apologies as I'm sure you've said

> these things before but I usually read the digest so I end up

> scrolling endlessly through all the recycled quotations and I know

I

> miss things as a result,

 

I'm sure we all do. It's gotten to be a pretty

busy place.

 

> >

> > I can't post the details of " what's enough "

> > only because the answer is lying in pieces

> > on our desks. But believe me as soon as

> > we get it all assembled, we won't be shy

> > about letting others see it.

> >

>

> " We " refers to...? You and your wife? The school at which you

> teach?

 

I don't currently teach at any of the schools.

" We " refers to a group of people that is

currently forming up to do this. Yu Huan

and I are doing most of the grunt work

on the layout of the course(s). And since

she is Chinese, we rely on her to do the

heavy lifting of those aspects directly

related to the language itself.

 

How do you envision implementing this program? As an

> independent CEU certificate program or are you thinking of trying

to

> get the schools to adopt your curriculum?

 

Well, as has been pointed out more than

once, we're not very realistic people.

We start with the idea of what will it

take to get someone up to speed and take

it from there, working from the inside

out, so to speak. Others will be involved

heavily in the implementation of any

course(s) that develop. We're talking to

a couple of schools, including both

acupuncture schools and four-year colleges

and universities, both here and in China.

 

 

 

>

> Again, thank you for making this clear. I think this is an

important

> issue which gets skirted around sometimes -- the sort of nagging

> inferiority complex many non-Asian practitioners have hanging over

> them. I remember hearing one experienced Western TCM practitioner

> talking about how we " don't need to be beholden to these people

> (meaning Asian teachers) anymore " . The " insider/outsider " dynamic

is

> very complex and may come out in hostile ways if it is not properly

> aired and addressed.

 

Well, you're welcome and I agree they are

important issues. And certainly people

bring a lot of baggage, as we all do to

everything that we do. But I believe

very strongly that knowledge is power

and anyone who wants to overcome whatever

it is that they feel may be holding them

back can do far worse than to make the

investment in themselves of acquiring

knowledge of the language of Chinese medicine.

 

 

>

> >

> > Perhaps there is something even more terrible

> > behind my arguments. I believe that the

> > reception and acculturation of Chinese medicine

> > in this country has been highly influenced

> > by the philosophy of hedonism, which gave

> > the world the California lifestyle. This

> > philosophy holds that the only worthwhile

> > pursuit is pleasure. Anything that is bitter

> > or painful should be avoided altogether

> > and one should devote one's days to

> > whatever makes you feel good.

> >

> >

>

> Again, I think these are all very real issues that need to be

talked

> about -- feelings and attitudes are very important in promoting

> change and can often get shoved aside as people strive to put on

> their professional " game face " . My wife works in the area of

> diversity training and these kinds of things get discussed quite a

> bit around the house. People need to not feel attacked about the

way

> they think and feel but at the same time need to be nudged toward

> honest personal and professional self-examination if any meaningful

> changes are going to happen. It's a very tricky thing.

 

Agreed. I'd say that the kind of personal

considerations you describe here are more

appropriately placed at the level of individual,

perhaps class-sized group interactions. At

the level of community-wide discussions of

standards I believe we must set and hold a

hard line on certain issues. People have

to know what they are getting themselves

into, and once in, they must be gotten through

whatever difficulties they encounter so that

they do indeed acquire basic competence with

such regularity that the bulk of graduates

succeed not only at obtaining licensure but

at establishing themselves as respected,

trusted, and utilized members of their

community's health care profession.

 

The lack of widespread professional success

over periods exceeding five years after

graduation among graduates of existing

programs suggests to me that something

has indeed been missing from the education.

 

I believe that the various somethings that

one might identify on further investigation

of this situation can, to a great extent,

be linked to the issues of language and

literature, as we have discussed here over

the past couple of years.

 

I might also point out that though as individuals

we might feel overcooked on this subject, in

fact it takes persistence at putting this

message forward over a long period of time

before it will really begin to sink in

among members of the community.

 

Just this morning my wife, who is nearing

completion of a project she's been working on

for nearly a year now, wrote out the following

old saying and hung it up on the wall as a way

of bolstering her spirits.

 

" xing2 bai3 li3 zhe3 ban4 jiu3 shi2 "

 

It means " 90 li3 is only half of a 100 li3 journey. "

Li3 being the traditional measure of distance

equal to about 1/3 of a mile.

 

As the Yi4 Jing1 puts it: perseverance furthers.

 

People differ

> as to the rate at which they can be brought to challenge their own

> assumptions, and strategies to implement change differ (Malcolm vs

> MLK, for example), but I think ultimately what you Ken are doing is

> extremely valuable and necessary...... even if you cut a little

close

> to the comfort zone sometimes....

 

Neither for me is it a pursuit of comfort.

Although I was born in California and am

indeed one of those sixties people that

Z'ev eulogizes...well, sort of...I never

bought into the philosophy of hedonism.

 

All my life I've believed in hard work

as the basis of achievement, which is

how I come to recognize how lazy I am.

It's also part of what makes me attracted

to Daoism and its philosophy of non-action.

 

And believe me, I'm not erudite. I have

a big vocabulary because I'm a writer.

I can say what I mean and survive on

the basis of being able to communicate

in writing.

 

So of course I have a certain affinity

for words, but a campaign to get instruction

in Chinese medical language and culture

included in the education of Chinese

medical personnel is not a hobbie horse

I'm trying to ride. It's born of a recognition

of what I think a growing number of people

is now coming to see as an obvious fact.

 

Ken

 

PS Anyone who just can't get enough of

this can find a fairly lengthy editorial

by me and my wife in the current issue

of CAOM, that's Vol 2. No. 4. I just

received my copies the other day so

rs should have theirs in hand

shortly. In this editorial we have

attempted to sum up the issues realted

to the importance of language learning

and building up access to the knowledge

base of the subject for non-Chinese

students, practitioners, researchers,

etc.

[Guest guest]

For instance, if you're hauled into court for using a treatment method that others have found fault with, you can't use as your excuse the fact that you didn't read the article in which that treatment was criticized

>>>Only if it is standard of care. Also if it is in Tai and you do not read Tai J or Japanese are you "unprofessional" first and "negligent"

Alon

 

-

pemachophel2001

Tuesday, January 15, 2002 3:06 PM

Re: fightin' words

, "" <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:> Last night, I was party to a conversation of students who thought it was > patently ridiculous that medical Chinese was not required for the > masters degree, not to say the doctorate (on a national level. PCOM > will require it). As one student, with a degree in pharmacology put it, > "to not study the language in which the majority of the subject matter > exists is not only negligent, but unprofessional".> -- I would put "unprofessional" first and "negligent" second. Negligent is a term in law that has potentially serious financial and punitive repercussions. Perhaps more people will be prodded into learning some medical Chinese when someone is sued for negligence for practicing Chinese medicine while being ignorant of the literature. I have been told that one can be sued for negligence as a doctor if one does not keep up with the most important journals. For instance, if you're hauled into court for using a treatment method that others have found fault with, you can't use as your excuse the fact that you didn't read the article in which that treatment was criticized. In other words, courts assume that being professional means reading the contemporary professional literature. Since, as it has been pointed out, that literature is almost entirely in one or more Far East Asian languages, not being able to read any of those languages might very well be considered negligent in its legal sense. To make this hypothesis more interesting, also consider that it is an insurance statistic that doctors are sued on an average of once every seven years. You could say it's only a matter of time.Bob> Among the students, there is a realization that simply memorizing > indications for points and herbs from an English language textbook is > not going to cut it in the profession, even as a bottom line entry level > standard.> > The time is now. A little goes a long way, as Robert points out in his > investigations.> > > On Tuesday, January 15, 2002, at 10:11 AM, dragon90405 wrote:> > > Robert,> >> > > I admire your devotion to this cause. I think two reasons why your> > > arguments cause such discomfort in many people (and I include> > myself> > > in this category) is that 1)you're so erudite its scary, 2)I get> > this> > > feeling that the implied message in your arguments is that we're> > all> > > lazy and incompetent if we don't take the time to learn medical> > > Chinese.> >> > Thank you for your comments. I appreciate> > your feedback. My main motivation in> > participating in this forum is to learn> > more of what people think about these> > subjects.> >> > I recognize that the message can be> > daunting and that to tell people that> > there has been something missing from> > their education is a presumptuous thing> > to do, but I haven't yet figured out> > any other way to state what seems like an> > obvious fact to me.> >Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

The lack of widespread professional successover periods exceeding five years aftergraduation among graduates of existingprograms suggests to me that somethinghas indeed been missing from the education.>>>>>I certainly agree with this. And most of students I have seen have very poor clinical skills

Alon

 

-

dragon90405

Tuesday, January 15, 2002 6:00 PM

Re: fightin' words

Robert,> > Thanks for clarifying some of these issues. You're absolutely > tireless in this regard. Again, apologies as I'm sure you've said > these things before but I usually read the digest so I end up > scrolling endlessly through all the recycled quotations and I know I > miss things as a result,I'm sure we all do. It's gotten to be a prettybusy place. > > > > I can't post the details of "what's enough"> > only because the answer is lying in pieces> > on our desks. But believe me as soon as> > we get it all assembled, we won't be shy> > about letting others see it.> > > > "We" refers to...? You and your wife? The school at which you > teach?I don't currently teach at any of the schools."We" refers to a group of people that is currently forming up to do this. Yu Huanand I are doing most of the grunt workon the layout of the course(s). And sinceshe is Chinese, we rely on her to do theheavy lifting of those aspects directlyrelated to the language itself. How do you envision implementing this program? As an > independent CEU certificate program or are you thinking of trying to > get the schools to adopt your curriculum?Well, as has been pointed out more thanonce, we're not very realistic people.We start with the idea of what will ittake to get someone up to speed and takeit from there, working from the insideout, so to speak. Others will be involvedheavily in the implementation of anycourse(s) that develop. We're talking toa couple of schools, including bothacupuncture schools and four-year collegesand universities, both here and in China.> > Again, thank you for making this clear. I think this is an important > issue which gets skirted around sometimes -- the sort of nagging > inferiority complex many non-Asian practitioners have hanging over > them. I remember hearing one experienced Western TCM practitioner > talking about how we "don't need to be beholden to these people > (meaning Asian teachers) anymore". The "insider/outsider" dynamic is > very complex and may come out in hostile ways if it is not properly > aired and addressed.Well, you're welcome and I agree they areimportant issues. And certainly peoplebring a lot of baggage, as we all do toeverything that we do. But I believevery strongly that knowledge is powerand anyone who wants to overcome whateverit is that they feel may be holding themback can do far worse than to make theinvestment in themselves of acquiringknowledge of the language of Chinese medicine.> > > > > Perhaps there is something even more terrible> > behind my arguments. I believe that the > > reception and acculturation of Chinese medicine> > in this country has been highly influenced> > by the philosophy of hedonism, which gave> > the world the California lifestyle. This> > philosophy holds that the only worthwhile> > pursuit is pleasure. Anything that is bitter> > or painful should be avoided altogether> > and one should devote one's days to > > whatever makes you feel good.> > > > > > Again, I think these are all very real issues that need to be talked > about -- feelings and attitudes are very important in promoting > change and can often get shoved aside as people strive to put on > their professional "game face". My wife works in the area of > diversity training and these kinds of things get discussed quite a > bit around the house. People need to not feel attacked about the way > they think and feel but at the same time need to be nudged toward > honest personal and professional self-examination if any meaningful > changes are going to happen. It's a very tricky thing.Agreed. I'd say that the kind of personalconsiderations you describe here are moreappropriately placed at the level of individual,perhaps class-sized group interactions. Atthe level of community-wide discussions ofstandards I believe we must set and hold ahard line on certain issues. People haveto know what they are getting themselvesinto, and once in, they must be gotten throughwhatever difficulties they encounter so thatthey do indeed acquire basic competence withsuch regularity that the bulk of graduatessucceed not only at obtaining licensure butat establishing themselves as respected,trusted, and utilized members of theircommunity's health care profession.The lack of widespread professional successover periods exceeding five years aftergraduation among graduates of existingprograms suggests to me that somethinghas indeed been missing from the education.I believe that the various somethings thatone might identify on further investigationof this situation can, to a great extent,be linked to the issues of language and literature, as we have discussed here overthe past couple of years.I might also point out that though as individualswe might feel overcooked on this subject, infact it takes persistence at putting thismessage forward over a long period of timebefore it will really begin to sink inamong members of the community. Just this morning my wife, who is nearingcompletion of a project she's been working onfor nearly a year now, wrote out the followingold saying and hung it up on the wall as a wayof bolstering her spirits."xing2 bai3 li3 zhe3 ban4 jiu3 shi2"It means "90 li3 is only half of a 100 li3 journey."Li3 being the traditional measure of distanceequal to about 1/3 of a mile.As the Yi4 Jing1 puts it: perseverance furthers. People differ > as to the rate at which they can be brought to challenge their own > assumptions, and strategies to implement change differ (Malcolm vs > MLK, for example), but I think ultimately what you Ken are doing is > extremely valuable and necessary...... even if you cut a little close > to the comfort zone sometimes....Neither for me is it a pursuit of comfort.Although I was born in California and amindeed one of those sixties people thatZ'ev eulogizes...well, sort of...I neverbought into the philosophy of hedonism.All my life I've believed in hard workas the basis of achievement, which ishow I come to recognize how lazy I am.It's also part of what makes me attractedto Daoism and its philosophy of non-action.And believe me, I'm not erudite. I havea big vocabulary because I'm a writer.I can say what I mean and survive onthe basis of being able to communicatein writing. So of course I have a certain affinityfor words, but a campaign to get instructionin Chinese medical language and cultureincluded in the education of Chinese medical personnel is not a hobbie horseI'm trying to ride. It's born of a recognitionof what I think a growing number of peopleis now coming to see as an obvious fact.KenPS Anyone who just can't get enough ofthis can find a fairly lengthy editorialby me and my wife in the current issueof CAOM, that's Vol 2. No. 4. I justreceived my copies the other day sors should have theirs in handshortly. In this editorial we haveattempted to sum up the issues realtedto the importance of language learningand building up access to the knowledgebase of the subject for non-Chinesestudents, practitioners, researchers,etc.Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.