Guest guest Posted January 16, 2002 Report Share Posted January 16, 2002 I have not participated in these posts primarily due to time and a desire to conserve bandwidth. The notion of the superior physician able to read in Chinese is correct. However, there are practitioners seeing 30 patients a day in their first year out. There is no way that people teaching, writing books, and participating heavily in lists like this are getting that kind of experience. Given sufficient basic training, medicine is first and foremost a game of experience. The skills of self cultivation, compassion, insight, wisdom, and bed side manner are not garnered from books; yet they are part and parcel of the journeyman practitioner. Do I think people are better off if they can read Chinese? Yes. Will they run into legal trouble if they can't? Only: 1. When there is a critical mass of practitioners reading 2. It is clearly established as a public safety risk. 3. A case precedent is set 4. Legislators consider it valuable.............this is not likely, we are still fairly geocentrically biased in this country. Medicine is a product of language and metaphor. Biomedicine relies on the metaphors of technology, Chinese medicine relies on the metaphors of the natural world and consequent evolution into an agricultural society. Also, the possibilities for a medicine reside in language. Grasping the subtle nuances of TCM improves with increasing language skills. However, there is also an advantage to rendering medicine into other languages, certain assumptions are confronted, new possibilities arise, and the medicine becomes transformed. Let those who want to focus on other issues of practice do so. Let those who want to read and speak Chinese do so. Those who spend their time translating will find gainful employment through books and seminars from the practitioners who choose to focus more time in practice. The community will organically fill in the niches of necessity. Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2002 Report Share Posted January 16, 2002 Will, Hear, hear! As was recently mentioned on another site I visit, diversity is what makes us whole! --Jody - WMorris116 Wednesday, January 16, 2002 7:55 AM Re: translation - Negligence I have not participated in these posts primarily due to time and a desire to conserve bandwidth. The notion of the superior physician able to read in Chinese is correct. However, there are practitioners seeing 30 patients a day in their first year out. There is no way that people teaching, writing books, and participating heavily in lists like this are getting that kind of experience. Given sufficient basic training, medicine is first and foremost a game of experience. The skills of self cultivation, compassion, insight, wisdom, and bed side manner are not garnered from books; yet they are part and parcel of the journeyman practitioner. Do I think people are better off if they can read Chinese? Yes. Will they run into legal trouble if they can't? Only: 1. When there is a critical mass of practitioners reading 2. It is clearly established as a public safety risk. 3. A case precedent is set 4. Legislators consider it valuable.............this is not likely, we are still fairly geocentrically biased in this country. Medicine is a product of language and metaphor. Biomedicine relies on the metaphors of technology, Chinese medicine relies on the metaphors of the natural world and consequent evolution into an agricultural society. Also, the possibilities for a medicine reside in language. Grasping the subtle nuances of TCM improves with increasing language skills. However, there is also an advantage to rendering medicine into other languages, certain assumptions are confronted, new possibilities arise, and the medicine becomes transformed. Let those who want to focus on other issues of practice do so. Let those who want to read and speak Chinese do so. Those who spend their time translating will find gainful employment through books and seminars from the practitioners who choose to focus more time in practice. The community will organically fill in the niches of necessity. Will Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2002 Report Share Posted January 16, 2002 , WMorris116@A... wrote: > > Do I think people are better off if they can read Chinese? Yes. Will they run > into legal trouble if they can't? I thought about this last night a bit as I am one of the uninformed. I do not think this would constitute negligence because acupuncture has such a great safety record over the past 30 years. There would have to be a pattern demonstrated. Add to this the somewhat disturbing fact that are now over 35,000 acupuncture practitioners in the US who have little or no training at all (MD's, chiros, etc.) there are only 10,000 of us. Very few, if any , of these medical acupuncturists read chinese and they are represented by powerful lobbies that would fight tooth and nail to defend them on this account. Many of those who read chinese well or just a little today were completely " uninformed " a few short years ago just like the rest of us. I would suspect that quite a few of those now engaged in learning to read chinese can make very little use of this skill on a day to day basis. If it takes you 12 hours to translate a single journal article, you do not use this skill regularly in your practice. At best you may be able to apply it to less than a handful of patients per month. It is my new years resolution to increase my skills in this area, but Ken Rose told me that it will take me years before I can do much with this skill. Having said this, anyone who denies the rationale behind Bob's oft- stated position really doesn't have much of a leg to stand upon. If your MD did not have access to the bulk of the medical literature in his field, you would probably be alarmed. As to what degree this really impacts one's skills is hard to say. I know plenty of people who read chinese who couldn't treat their way out of a paper bag and plenty who can't who consistently get great results. So something else certainly comes into play here. Granted, it seems easier to get away with practicing acupuncture with limited book knowledge than it seems for herbology. Acupuncture is very forgiving in this way. However, we should be mindful that if, as a profession, we accept the idea that things like compassion, insight, etc. can be just as crucial to successful practice as proper book learning, than we also need to be comfortable with MD's practicing our medicine. Again, it comes down to safety, effectiveness and patient satisfaction. According to surveys, patient satisfaction is very high amongst patients of acus, even those with only 200 hours training. MD's are apparently getting good results with needles, so we should be cautious about attacking them before we hear that this is the pot calling the kettle black. I have been wondering if I should teach or practice anymore. Maybe I should find a new job. I do only teach entry level materia medica and it is my lack of chinese that makes me feel inadequate to teach upper level classes. I leave that to Z'ev and Bob Damone and the chinese staff at PCOM. However, I also supervise in clinic. I wonder if this is OK. I know I demand more rigor of my interns than many chinese colleagues I have worked with over the years. I make sure they keep their eye on the ball as far as justifying dx and selecting correct tx principles. Clearly, my lack of chinese means there are many things I cannot answer with authority. On the other hand, I am often stunned how many of my colleagues are unfamiliar with even the english language literature out there. So let's be fair. there are levels of book learning. someone who is fully conversant with eastland, blue poppy and paradigm's books, s to the BP online journal, regularly consults with those who do read chinese, etc. is head and shoulders above those who have never read anything besides giovanni. I wonder if I will ever have the skills I seek in chinese, but I also know I could spend the rest of my life just trying to understand the english literature already out there. Books like the pi wei lun, shang han lun, jia yi jing, qin bo wei anthologies and nan jing, all available in rigorous translation, are so dense that their study alone might be all one could muster outside of a busy practice, anyway. And unschuld's nei jing is on the way. And let us not forget that in days past, a chinese physician may have had access to only a handful of texts to guide him. Zhang zhong jing makes reference to only about 6 he considered important. So this demigod of herbology was perhaps " uninformed " himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2002 Report Share Posted January 16, 2002 wonder if I will ever have the skills I seek in chinese, but I also know I could spend the rest of my life just trying to understand the english literature already out there. Books like the pi wei lun, shang han lun, jia yi jing, qin bo wei anthologies and nan jing, all available in rigorous translation, are so dense that their study alone might be all one could muster outside of a busy practice, anyway. And unschuld's nei jing is on the way. And let us not forget that in days past, a chinese physician may have had access to only a handful of texts to guide him. Zhang zhong jing makes reference to only about 6 he considered important. So this demigod of herbology was perhaps "uninformed" himself.>>>>>My feeling as well Alon - 1 Wednesday, January 16, 2002 9:17 AM Re: translation - Negligence , WMorris116@A... wrote:> > Do I think people are better off if they can read Chinese? Yes. Will they run > into legal trouble if they can't?I thought about this last night a bit as I am one of the uninformed. I do not think this would constitute negligence because acupuncture has such a great safety record over the past 30 years. There would have to be a pattern demonstrated. Add to this the somewhat disturbing fact that are now over 35,000 acupuncture practitioners in the US who have little or no training at all (MD's, chiros, etc.) there are only 10,000 of us. Very few, if any , of these medical acupuncturists read chinese and they are represented by powerful lobbies that would fight tooth and nail to defend them on this account.Many of those who read chinese well or just a little today were completely "uninformed" a few short years ago just like the rest of us. I would suspect that quite a few of those now engaged in learning to read chinese can make very little use of this skill on a day to day basis. If it takes you 12 hours to translate a single journal article, you do not use this skill regularly in your practice. At best you may be able to apply it to less than a handful of patients per month. It is my new years resolution to increase my skills in this area, but Ken Rose told me that it will take me years before I can do much with this skill. Having said this, anyone who denies the rationale behind Bob's oft-stated position really doesn't have much of a leg to stand upon. If your MD did not have access to the bulk of the medical literature in his field, you would probably be alarmed. As to what degree this really impacts one's skills is hard to say. I know plenty of people who read chinese who couldn't treat their way out of a paper bag and plenty who can't who consistently get great results. So something else certainly comes into play here. Granted, it seems easier to get away with practicing acupuncture with limited book knowledge than it seems for herbology. Acupuncture is very forgiving in this way. However, we should be mindful that if, as a profession, we accept the idea that things like compassion, insight, etc. can be just as crucial to successful practice as proper book learning, than we also need to be comfortable with MD's practicing our medicine. Again, it comes down to safety, effectiveness and patient satisfaction. According to surveys, patient satisfaction is very high amongst patients of acus, even those with only 200 hours training. MD's are apparently getting good results with needles, so we should be cautious about attacking them before we hear that this is the pot calling the kettle black. I have been wondering if I should teach or practice anymore. Maybe I should find a new job. I do only teach entry level materia medica and it is my lack of chinese that makes me feel inadequate to teach upper level classes. I leave that to Z'ev and Bob Damone and the chinese staff at PCOM. However, I also supervise in clinic. I wonder if this is OK. I know I demand more rigor of my interns than many chinese colleagues I have worked with over the years. I make sure they keep their eye on the ball as far as justifying dx and selecting correct tx principles. Clearly, my lack of chinese means there are many things I cannot answer with authority. On the other hand, I am often stunned how many of my colleagues are unfamiliar with even the english language literature out there. So let's be fair. there are levels of book learning. someone who is fully conversant with eastland, blue poppy and paradigm's books, s to the BP online journal, regularly consults with those who do read chinese, etc. is head and shoulders above those who have never read anything besides giovanni. I wonder if I will ever have the skills I seek in chinese, but I also know I could spend the rest of my life just trying to understand the english literature already out there. Books like the pi wei lun, shang han lun, jia yi jing, qin bo wei anthologies and nan jing, all available in rigorous translation, are so dense that their study alone might be all one could muster outside of a busy practice, anyway. And unschuld's nei jing is on the way. And let us not forget that in days past, a chinese physician may have had access to only a handful of texts to guide him. Zhang zhong jing makes reference to only about 6 he considered important. So this demigod of herbology was perhaps "uninformed" himself.ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2002 Report Share Posted January 16, 2002 > No, I don't think you need to find a new job. The insistence of study > of Chinese by various parties on this list is to begin the journey. As > it says in the Talmud, an equally if not more daunting study, " your job > is not to complete, but begin " . Again, a little goes a long way. > Knowing a few simple characters that one can connect with the concepts > learned originally in English and Pinyin can expand one's comprehension > of the medicine. And, yes, there is a vast improvement in much of the translated literature. As previously discussed, a text like the Mitchell/Wiseman/Feng Shang Han Lun is a great way to get Chinese study going. With dictionaries and glossaries, one has the tools to go beneath the surface of the latest textbooks that are in English. This is not an either/or, all or nothing proposition. It just behooves us to get on with the show, no matter where we stand. > (Todd wrote) > I have been wondering if I should teach or practice anymore. Maybe I > should find a new job. I do only teach entry level materia medica and > it is my lack of chinese that makes me feel inadequate to teach upper > level classes. I leave that to Z'ev and Bob Damone and the chinese > staff at PCOM. However, I also supervise in clinic. I wonder if this > is OK. I know I demand more rigor of my interns than many chinese > colleagues I have worked with over the years. I make sure they keep > their eye on the ball as far as justifying dx and selecting correct tx > principles. Clearly, my lack of chinese means there are many things I > cannot answer with authority. On the other hand, I am often stunned > how many of my colleagues are unfamiliar with even the english language > literature out there. So let's be fair. there are levels of book > learning. someone who is fully conversant with eastland, blue poppy > and paradigm's books, s to the BP online journal, regularly > consults with those who do read chinese, etc. is head and shoulders > above those who have never read anything besides giovanni. > > I wonder if I will ever have the skills I seek in chinese, but I also > know I could spend the rest of my life just trying to understand the > english literature already out there. Books like the pi wei lun, shang > han lun, jia yi jing, qin bo wei anthologies and nan jing, all > available in rigorous translation, are so dense that their study alone > might be all one could muster outside of a busy practice, anyway. And > unschuld's nei jing is on the way. And let us not forget that in days > past, a chinese physician may have had access to only a handful of > texts to guide him. Zhang zhong jing makes reference to only about 6 > he considered important. So this demigod of herbology was perhaps > " uninformed " himself. > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2002 Report Share Posted January 16, 2002 I think it's important that we not let the size, scope or difficulty of any given task discourage us from undertaking it, if indeed it seems reasonable that it's a task that needs to be accomplished. Since you referred to our conversation about Chinese study, I want to clarify for others what I meant. First, you described a study schedule that was fairly light, if I recall correctly and I said that without devoting a good deal of time every day to studying that it could be expected to stretch out over years. But as to what one can expect to be able to accomplish through such study, I believe the benefits begin to accrue almost at once when one sets out on such a path. Something is accomplished, in other words, with each moment spent studying Chinese words and particularly the medical terminology. If there is a good method employed, these accomplishments can be maximized. If many moments are spent, benefits naturally increase. All of this can and should be adjusted to individual needs, capacities and circumstances. I don't think that dwelling on the potential for legal liabilities is the most productive use of time, since the best way to avoid legal entanglements is to be competent and we ought to keep the focus on pursuit of competence and excellence. There are always liabilities associated with doing darn near anything. Seems to me that the more I do, the more people are angry at me. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2002 Report Share Posted January 16, 2002 Will, I'm interested to know what, if anything, from your perspective as a dean at a college of Oriental medicine, stands in the way of including study of Chinese medical language and the necessary related material in the curriculum of candidates for both the Masters and new Doctorate. Aside from endorsing the idea of such study, as you seem to be doing here, what concrete steps do you envision that can be taken to see to it that more students experience the benefits you descirbe below? Ken have the benefits that you, WMorris116@A... wrote: > I have not participated in these posts primarily due to time and a desire to > conserve bandwidth. > > The notion of the superior physician able to read in Chinese is correct. > However, there are practitioners seeing 30 patients a day in their first year > out. There is no way that people teaching, writing books, and participating > heavily in lists like this are getting that kind of experience. Given > sufficient basic training, medicine is first and foremost a game of > experience. The skills of self cultivation, compassion, insight, wisdom, and > bed side manner are not garnered from books; yet they are part and parcel of > the journeyman practitioner. > > Do I think people are better off if they can read Chinese? Yes. Will they run > into legal trouble if they can't? Only: 1. When there is a critical mass of > practitioners reading 2. It is clearly established as a public safety risk. > 3. A case precedent is set 4. Legislators consider it > valuable.............this is not likely, we are still fairly geocentrically > biased in this country. > > Medicine is a product of language and metaphor. Biomedicine relies on the > metaphors of technology, Chinese medicine relies on the metaphors of the > natural world and consequent evolution into an agricultural society. Also, > the possibilities for a medicine reside in language. Grasping the subtle > nuances of TCM improves with increasing language skills. However, there is > also an advantage to rendering medicine into other languages, certain > assumptions are confronted, new possibilities arise, and the medicine becomes > transformed. > > Let those who want to focus on other issues of practice do so. Let those who > want to read and speak Chinese do so. Those who spend their time translating > will find gainful employment through books and seminars from the > practitioners who choose to focus more time in practice. The community will > organically fill in the niches of necessity. > > Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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