Guest guest Posted January 17, 2002 Report Share Posted January 17, 2002 , " hp " <hnp@m...> wrote: I understand your passion for the language > subject you post about but I simply think they it is off topic. Just my two > cents. Thanks > Howard Howard I started the CHA forum and it was never meant to talk only about herbs or cases. It was meant to talk about any topic that is relevant to the practice of chinese herbology. IMO, this issue of education is the crux of this field at this time. Without discussion on the issue of what constitutes adequate education in the field, we will remain stalemated in mediocrity. Some people think this is academic or a largely settled issue. But given the concerns of the biggest names in the field who post right here, it is obviously very much on their minds. Anyone is free to start a thread or submit a case at any time. Yes, 100's merely read the posts, but that is typical. How many people read a newspaper compared to the number who send letters to the editor? I have no interest in censoring what people wiser than me consider to be important and I would suggest that if these folks have been around for 20 years and they think this is critical, we should all take heed. How can anyone practice adequately if they don't even know what resources they may be lacking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2002 Report Share Posted January 17, 2002 Howard, Since you directed this to me, I want to just briefly throw in my two cents worth. In doing so, I want to get past the edge of discomfort that Robert pointed out I seem to like to tread. I want to suggest that those who find this topic uncomfortable do so for reasons. They are, in my mind, quite comparable to the kinds of reasons why anyone might find anything uncomfortable. I always find when examining patients that if a pain is experienced it must contain opposing forces. One of the reasons why I'm willing to spend the time reading and writing to this forum is that I learn a great deal about the nature of the forces that line up on various sides of this issue. If you don't want to talk about it, I guess the best thing to do is to just ignore it. But if you do care about it and have an opinion to express, please do so. And please express your rationale. As you see, who runs the place, wants this here. Maybe that's why it keeps coming back. I'm happy to carry on the discussion on the ChineseMedicine.net list. I have absolutely no desire to talk to anyone who doesn't wish to talk to me. And if you or anyone wants to talk about this or other topics on that list, I'm happy to meet you there. Of course, we'll have to deal with all that irrelevant traffic about herbs that's going on there now. Cute. Ken > I started the CHA forum and it was never meant to talk only about herbs > or cases. It was meant to talk about any topic that is relevant to the > practice of chinese herbology. IMO, this issue of education is the > crux of this field at this time. Without discussion on the issue of > what constitutes adequate education in the field, we will remain > stalemated in mediocrity. Some people think this is academic or a > largely settled issue. But given the concerns of the biggest names in > the field who post right here, it is obviously very much on their > minds. Anyone is free to start a thread or submit a case at any time. > Yes, 100's merely read the posts, but that is typical. How many people > read a newspaper compared to the number who send letters to the editor? > I have no interest in censoring what people wiser than me consider to > be important and I would suggest that if these folks have been around > for 20 years and they think this is critical, we should all take heed. > How can anyone practice adequately if they don't even know what > resources they may be lacking? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2002 Report Share Posted January 17, 2002 The way I see the subject of Chinese medicine, especially internal (i.e.) herbal medicine: Learning Chinese medicinals and prescriptions is not nearly as effective without understanding why and how to use them. A prescription is simply the result of a well-executed pattern diagnosis, which requires a deepening understanding of Chinese medical theory. We can say that the Chinese medicinals are the 'hardware' of Chinese medicine. (We can say the same for needles and moxabustion). Chinese medical theory is based on a form of logic, rooted in qi, yin and yang, five phases, and a series of steps in a process involving compiling information from a patient and using our judgement and observation powers to develop a diagnosis. Chinese medical theory is the 'software' of Chinese medicine. The 'code' on which the software is built are the characters that make up the Chinese language. Even a beginner's understanding of the characters enriches knowledge of the underlying code. Just as computer programmers can create software out of code, and software designers are what allows hardware to run, knowledge of Chinese language and Chinese medical theory allows the practitioner to practice herbal medicine in a precise and creative manner. If not, cookbook approaches prevail, and a limited understanding of what Chinese medicinals and prescriptions can accomplish. While I'd like to see more cases presented on CHA again, earlier on in the history of this site, many cases were presented with the desire to treat the disease with a prescription though a disease-only model, this formula for an AIDS patient, this formula for a prostatitis patient, and so on. It showed that our body of practitioners is still weak in pattern diagnosis, and matching prescriptions precisely to cases. I think a lot of the discussion going on recently, as Todd has pointed out, is an attempt to rectify the deficiencies in our ability to practice Chinese medicine in the best possible way. Cure of illness must look to the root. On Thursday, January 17, 2002, at 08:46 AM, 1 wrote: > > Howard > > I started the CHA forum and it was never meant to talk only about herbs > or cases. It was meant to talk about any topic that is relevant to the > practice of chinese herbology. IMO, this issue of education is the > crux of this field at this time. Without discussion on the issue of > what constitutes adequate education in the field, we will remain > stalemated in mediocrity. Some people think this is academic or a > largely settled issue. But given the concerns of the biggest names in > the field who post right here, it is obviously very much on their > minds. Anyone is free to start a thread or submit a case at any time. > Yes, 100's merely read the posts, but that is typical. How many people > read a newspaper compared to the number who send letters to the editor? > I have no interest in censoring what people wiser than me consider to > be important and I would suggest that if these folks have been around > for 20 years and they think this is critical, we should all take heed. > How can anyone practice adequately if they don't even know what > resources they may be lacking? > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2002 Report Share Posted January 17, 2002 Learning Chinese medicinals and prescriptions is not nearly as effective without understanding why and how to use them. >>>How can you even practice without understanding the pathomechaniques of a so called prescription. By definition the prescription and modifications should only be used by understanding the patient condition. Unless one practices folk medicine which works on a so called disease or symptom Alon - Thursday, January 17, 2002 1:20 PM Re: topics/was digest 859 The way I see the subject of Chinese medicine, especially internal (i.e.) herbal medicine:Learning Chinese medicinals and prescriptions is not nearly as effective without understanding why and how to use them. A prescription is simply the result of a well-executed pattern diagnosis, which requires a deepening understanding of Chinese medical theory.We can say that the Chinese medicinals are the 'hardware' of Chinese medicine. (We can say the same for needles and moxabustion).Chinese medical theory is based on a form of logic, rooted in qi, yin and yang, five phases, and a series of steps in a process involving compiling information from a patient and using our judgement and observation powers to develop a diagnosis.Chinese medical theory is the 'software' of Chinese medicine.The 'code' on which the software is built are the characters that make up the Chinese language. Even a beginner's understanding of the characters enriches knowledge of the underlying code.Just as computer programmers can create software out of code, and software designers are what allows hardware to run, knowledge of Chinese language and Chinese medical theory allows the practitioner to practice herbal medicine in a precise and creative manner. If not, cookbook approaches prevail, and a limited understanding of what Chinese medicinals and prescriptions can accomplish.While I'd like to see more cases presented on CHA again, earlier on in the history of this site, many cases were presented with the desire to treat the disease with a prescription though a disease-only model, this formula for an AIDS patient, this formula for a prostatitis patient, and so on. It showed that our body of practitioners is still weak in pattern diagnosis, and matching prescriptions precisely to cases.I think a lot of the discussion going on recently, as Todd has pointed out, is an attempt to rectify the deficiencies in our ability to practice Chinese medicine in the best possible way.Cure of illness must look to the root. On Thursday, January 17, 2002, at 08:46 AM, 1 wrote: HowardI started the CHA forum and it was never meant to talk only about herbsor cases. It was meant to talk about any topic that is relevant to thepractice of chinese herbology. IMO, this issue of education is thecrux of this field at this time. Without discussion on the issue ofwhat constitutes adequate education in the field, we will remainstalemated in mediocrity. Some people think this is academic or alargely settled issue. But given the concerns of the biggest names inthe field who post right here, it is obviously very much on theirminds. Anyone is free to start a thread or submit a case at any time. Yes, 100's merely read the posts, but that is typical. How many peopleread a newspaper compared to the number who send letters to the editor? I have no interest in censoring what people wiser than me consider tobe important and I would suggest that if these folks have been aroundfor 20 years and they think this is critical, we should all take heed. How can anyone practice adequately if they don't even know whatresources they may be lacking?Todd Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2002 Report Share Posted January 17, 2002 Alon Marcus [alonmarcus] Learning Chinese medicinals and prescriptions is not nearly as effective without understanding why and how to use them. >>>How can you even practice without understanding the pathomechaniques of a so called prescription. By definition the prescription and modifications should only be used by understanding the patient condition. Unless one practices folk medicine which works on a so called disease or symptom Alon Alon- Correct me if I’m wrong, but I was under the impression a few msg.’s ago you were downgrading the importance of pathomechanisms calling it a place where MSU commonly resides and its use often fails in the clinics in China (?)… Also you stated that your teachers in China never emphasized it…. Well my teachers (from China that spoke enough English) always have mentioned it (at least) in the higher level classes and always emphasized its importance, And if you consult the internal medicine books in Chinese you see the importance it plays in understanding the disease patterns. If you compare to the English internal medicine texts (i.e. Practical Therapeutics) which is a great book, it leaves much to be desired when it comes to understanding the Pathomechanisms, hence the disease. It is setup as a cookbook. So you can practice from the cookbook and use what elaboration/ pathomechanisms are available for common diseases… But pathomechanisms aside, many diseases are not even translated into English yet! What then do you do? Well you may have enough hand written notes from your China trips to sift through and find some above average solutions, but most of us do not have that option, and personally I place that kind of info low on the totem pole. Or one may try something that they heard works, or just treat the pattern they see.. which are all fine, but mediocre at best… But, The solution for me is : read Chinese, because the info is just not available yet. -Jason .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2002 Report Share Posted January 17, 2002 - Correct me if I’m wrong, but I was under the impression a few msg.’s ago you were downgrading the importance of pathomechanisms calling it a place where MSU commonly resides and its use often fails in the clinics in China (?)… Also you stated that your teachers in China never emphasized it…. Jason >>>>>No your wrong my teachers have always emphasized it to a great degree. And I did not say it. It is just that to me too often it seemed more of an intellectual exercise than one that can be proven for a patient. It was always entertaining to me when one dr will get a new patient that has failed someone else's treatment and he would go over this elaborate pathomechnisims to explain how his approach will be the right one and why the other failed but at the end after a few months there was no change with the patient again. That is all I am saying. To practice TCM one has to do the methodology and I except and do this every day. But again I like to look at things not only from one perspective and at the end its only about the result. When I put my TCM hat on I think within TCM paradigm and pathomechnisims it were one starts. I am not sure what is new here. This has been always the way we learned it even back in 1982 at ACTCM. That is most of what Dr Lai and Chen ever talked about. It was never this Organ diagnosis Only. - Thursday, January 17, 2002 7:18 PM RE: topics/was digest 859 Alon Marcus [alonmarcus] Learning Chinese medicinals and prescriptions is not nearly as effective without understanding why and how to use them. >>>How can you even practice without understanding the pathomechaniques of a so called prescription. By definition the prescription and modifications should only be used by understanding the patient condition. Unless one practices folk medicine which works on a so called disease or symptom Alon Alon- Correct me if I’m wrong, but I was under the impression a few msg.’s ago you were downgrading the importance of pathomechanisms calling it a place where MSU commonly resides and its use often fails in the clinics in China (?)… Also you stated that your teachers in China never emphasized it…. Well my teachers (from China that spoke enough English) always have mentioned it (at least) in the higher level classes and always emphasized its importance, And if you consult the internal medicine books in Chinese you see the importance it plays in understanding the disease patterns. If you compare to the English internal medicine texts (i.e. Practical Therapeutics) which is a great book, it leaves much to be desired when it comes to understanding the Pathomechanisms, hence the disease. It is setup as a cookbook. So you can practice from the cookbook and use what elaboration/ pathomechanisms are available for common diseases… But pathomechanisms aside, many diseases are not even translated into English yet! What then do you do? Well you may have enough hand written notes from your China trips to sift through and find some above average solutions, but most of us do not have that option, and personally I place that kind of info low on the totem pole. Or one may try something that they heard works, or just treat the pattern they see.. which are all fine, but mediocre at best… But, The solution for me is : read Chinese, because the info is just not available yet. -Jason .. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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