Guest guest Posted January 21, 2002 Report Share Posted January 21, 2002 I am working with two patients for obesity who are by all objective measures (weight loss, blood work, energy levels, triglycerides, etc.) doing well on the Atkins diet. Both are spleen qi and kidney xu- the woman more kidney and the man more spleen, both with dampness. Both are older, significantly (70lbs+) overweight, insulin resistant, stressed, sedentary, deep weak thin pulses and pale puffy scalloped tongues. The Atkins diet, for those of you who are unfamiliar, is a very low carbohydrate diet consisting of approximately 40 grams (3-5 cups) of leafy green vegetables, with protein and (good) fat to taste and lots of water to keep kidneys function healthy. Virtually no grains and occasional low carb fruit. The initial 2 week induction phase only has 20 grams of carbohydrates. The diet has recently been evaluated by outside university studies and like many others is being rehabilitated after having been condemned. I am struggling to conceptualize the diet and who it works for in terms of Chinese medicine. The people I know well who have lost significant amounts of weight on high carbohydrate vegetarian diets have been more wind and fire types, but then my sample size is small. As an earth/metal type I've never been able to lose weight long term on anything but a low carbohydrate diet, in fact bloating and gaining weight on a macrobiotic-type diet. Given that this wasn't a significant problem (and the diet not a real possibility) in classical times, I've been coming up short on references. Most of the journal articles I've come across are short on etiology and long on auricular points. I did see Bob's article on obesity on the Blue Poppy site which gives several etiologies for obesity. Liu Zicheng et. al.'s auricular articles speaks of seven types of obesity (Stomach fire, Spleen and Lung qi xu, hyperactivity of Liver Yang, Damp blockage of Stomach and Spleen, consumption of Yin Fluid, Heart and Spleen xu, and Spleen and Kidney Qi Xu, elsewhere described as Postpartum, although that isn't the only cause.) None of the articles addresses low carbohydrate diets at all. Anyone want to try? Karen Vaughan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2002 Report Share Posted January 26, 2002 , " creationsgarden " < creationsgarden@j...> wrote: > I am working with two patients for obesity who are by all objective > measures (weight loss, blood work, energy levels, triglycerides, etc.) > doing well on the Atkins diet. Both are spleen qi and kidney xu- the > woman more kidney and the man more spleen, both with dampness. Both > are older, significantly (70lbs+) overweight, insulin resistant, > stressed, sedentary, deep weak thin pulses and pale puffy scalloped > tongues. Karen Sorry it has taken me so long to get to this, but it has been a busy week. I too am vey interested in the documented effects of high protein diets. they do seem to work for many people, especially those who have failed on high carb diets. Several things come to my mind. One is that these diets result in the body producing very little insulin. When insulin is low, growth hormone tends to be high and this encourage weight loss. Eating a lot of protein results in fat being replaced by muscle, so the benefit is good. If one also exercises, this benfit is increased manyfold. Eating at least some carbs will prevent ketosis, one of the problems found in bodybuilders who eat only protein in huge amounts with no carbs at all. Add to this the epidemiological evidence that certain peoples have thrived on such diets (eskimos, for example). So we need to be careful to put all our eggs in the asian style diet basket. this is merely one model of eating healthy that may have as much to do with genetics and a cultural bias (and/or economic necessity) favoring low calorie intake. when this subject was last discussed on this list, someone forwarded the okinawa centenarian study to the list to prove the indisputable value of high carb diet. However, the results of this study ignore two important points: 1. the genetic homogenity of the okinawans, which is quite distinct fromthat of europeans 2. the well documented okinanwan practice of only eating till one is 80% full. the fact is that many of the people who we look to for dietary inspiration have one major thing in common. for most of history, econnomic necessity has resulted in these peoples eating fairly low calorie diets. so total calories seems to be the common factor in many " healthy " diets. A high protein diet can be very nutrient dense with only moderate calories. the same amount of calories from high quality organic beef provides far more b vitamins, zinc, iron and EFA's thanthe same calories in grain form. > > The Atkins diet, for those of you who are unfamiliar, is a very low > carbohydrate diet consisting of approximately 40 grams (3-5 cups) of > leafy green vegetables, with protein and (good) fat to taste and lots > of water to keep kidneys function healthy. Virtually no grains and > occasional low carb fruit. The initial 2 week induction phase only > has 20 grams of carbohydrates. The diet has recently been evaluated > by outside university studies and like many others is being > rehabilitated after having been condemned. studies are indeed supporting the short term gains on this diet, as in blood work and weight loss. However, the jury is still out on the long term effects of such reduced vegetable consumption. It reamins ot be seenif cancer rates are higher inthoseon atkins diet. personally, I think many of the same results can be acquired with a much higher vegetable intake. Leafy grains aare very low carb and cuase almost no insulin production, either, so I think Atkins has went overbaord inthis regard. Fact is I have seen many people do just as well onthe zone diet or paleolithic prescription. all these diets have in common is the restriction of high glycemic carbs like grains. I think this is a much saner approach with all the benefits of the atkins, but none of the potential risks. > > I am struggling to conceptualize the diet and who it works for in > terms of Chinese medicine. The people I know well who have lost > significant amounts of weight on high carbohydrate vegetarian diets > have been more wind and fire types, but then my sample size is > small. As an earth/metal type I've never been able to lose weight > long term on anything but a low carbohydrate diet, in fact bloating > and gaining weight on a macrobiotic-type diet. this is of interest to me, as well. if you are familiar with blood type diets. type O is recommended a low carb, high protein diet for health rather than weight loss reasons. I wonder if anyone has seen any correlation between blood type and CM constitutions. type O is common amongst northern europeans, while type AB is more common in the mediterranean regions. AB is recommended a higher carb,lower protein diet. since blood type is linked to genetics, perhaps there is some rationale here. Different genotypes evolved to eat different diets. As we know, mediterranean diet has historically been high carb, while northern europe was high protein through much of history. So it might make sense that northern europeans do better on a different diet than asians or mediterraneans. Can we say that northrn europe has more earth/water types and asia more wind/fire? Well, northern europeans are certainly larger than asians. so perhaps. evidence from archaeology suggests that those who ate the so-called paleolithic diet were very healthy. > > I did see Bob's article on obesity on the Blue Poppy site which gives > several etiologies for obesity. Liu Zicheng et. al.'s auricular > articles speaks of seven types of obesity (Stomach fire, Spleen and > Lung qi xu, hyperactivity of Liver Yang, Damp blockage of Stomach and > Spleen, consumption of Yin Fluid, Heart and Spleen xu, and Spleen and > Kidney Qi Xu, elsewhere described as Postpartum, although that isn't > the only cause.) None of the articles addresses low carbohydrate > diets at all. well, asians don't eat low carb diets, so that is not surprising. As for TCM pattern and correct diet, something from ayurveda seems to conflict with your assessment of what type goes with what diet. Ayurveda recommends low protein diets to kapha types and higher protein diets to vata types. I think earth/water is much like kapha and wood/ fire more like vata/pitta. So this doesn't jibe well. And of course,all the diets still center around grains. As for textual references, I believe Bob Flaws new book on diabetes will have some discussion of this issue (due out this spring). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2002 Report Share Posted January 27, 2002 Hi Karen, I'm sending this as a go-between. I forwarded your post to a macrobiotic fellow student. She was unable to reply to the incomplete address. Here's what she had to say: From 20 years on macrobiotic diet, my experience is that gas/bloating is due to specific factors that are not a direct result of the high carbs: 1. not chewing well enough (at least 50 X mouthful) 2. combining fruit/fruitjuice with grains/flour/beans in desserts 3. overeating, esp grain or beans 4. not soaking grain, beans 5. eating too much variety in one meal 6. not including the fermented pickles necessary for digestion of the complex carbs I'm fascinated by your other considerations re body type, OM diagnosis, and type of diet/herbs, but don't have enough conclusions at this time to respond. Am busy finishing my MS in OM. --jf in fact bloating > and gaining weight on a macrobiotic-type diet. > > > Anyone want to try? > > Karen Vaughan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2002 Report Share Posted January 31, 2002 , " 1 " <@i...> wrote: I have been on this list for some time but never introduced myself. Most of what is discussed in this forum is well beyond my level and therefore I have just been " sitting in the back of the class " hoping to learn. I am studying Chinese Herbalism and Dietary therapy via correspondence with a particular interest in Dietary Therapy. I find this thread fascinating and will contribute the small bit I can. >> if you are familiar with blood type diets. type O is recommended a low carb, high protein diet for health rather than weight loss reasons. I wonder if anyone has seen any correlation between blood type and CM constitutions.>> I can only speak for myself, but I have type O blood and am a strong Vata constitution. This would directly conflict with the above in that Vatas need carbohydrates in higher proportions than the other two body types. Years ago due to candidiasis I was put on the Atkins diet. I lost weight that I could not afford to lose very quickly. It served me well short term to get the condition under control, but long term would have been very detrimental. Thus, following a Vata diet has improved my health, whereas following a blood type O diet was detrimental. I am of Irish/German descent. >> As for TCM pattern and correct diet, something from ayurveda seems to conflict with your assessment of what type goes with what diet. Ayurveda recommends low protein diets to kapha types and higher protein diets to vata types.>> << I think earth/water is much like kapha and wood/fire more like vata/pitta. So this doesn't jibe well.>> I think the confusion might lie in the different types of protein. Vatas need more protein primarily due to the fact that they will become deficient more readily than the other two types. Vatas also need the highest amount of grain due to the light dry nature of the body type. Kaphas need less protein because they come from the " strongest stock " ; yet, because Kapha is inherently damp in nature, they do well with the least amount of grain. Therefore Vatas do best with more protein from meat sources and more grain. Kaphas do better with less grain but more vegetable protein, particularly in the form of beans due to their diuretic nature. Vegetable protein is lower in protein than meat sources (Kaphas need lower protein). Pittas would fall somewhere in between. It's a pleasure to make everyone's acquaintance. Lynn Durst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2002 Report Share Posted January 31, 2002 Lynn, I'm hampered in trying to understand your post by being unfamiliar with the terms you're using. Can you either define them or tell me where I can find the defintions of vata, kapha, and pitta? Thanks, Ken , " gdurst1774 " <GDurst1774@a...> wrote: > , " 1 " <@i...> wrote: > > I have been on this list for some time but never introduced myself. > Most of what is discussed in this forum is well beyond my level and > therefore I have just been " sitting in the back of the class " hoping > to learn. I am studying Chinese Herbalism and Dietary therapy via > correspondence with a particular interest in Dietary Therapy. I find > this thread fascinating and will contribute the small bit I can. > > >> if you are familiar with blood type diets. type O is recommended > a low carb, high protein diet for health rather than weight loss > reasons. I wonder if anyone has seen any correlation between blood > type and CM constitutions.>> > > I can only speak for myself, but I have type O blood and am a strong > Vata constitution. This would directly conflict with the above in > that Vatas need carbohydrates in higher proportions than the other > two body types. Years ago due to candidiasis I was put on the Atkins > diet. I lost weight that I could not afford to lose very quickly. > It served me well short term to get the condition under control, but > long term would have been very detrimental. Thus, following a Vata > diet has improved my health, whereas following a blood type O diet > was detrimental. > > I am of Irish/German descent. > > >> As for TCM pattern and correct diet, something from ayurveda seems > to conflict with your assessment of what type goes with what diet. > Ayurveda recommends low protein diets to kapha types and higher > protein diets to vata types.>> > > << I think earth/water is much like kapha and wood/fire more like > vata/pitta. So this doesn't jibe well.>> > > I think the confusion might lie in the different types of protein. > Vatas need more protein primarily due to the fact that they will > become deficient more readily than the other two types. Vatas also > need the highest amount of grain due to the light dry nature of the > body type. Kaphas need less protein because they come from > the " strongest stock " ; yet, because Kapha is inherently damp in > nature, they do well with the least amount of grain. > > Therefore Vatas do best with more protein from meat sources and more > grain. Kaphas do better with less grain but more vegetable protein, > particularly in the form of beans due to their diuretic nature. > Vegetable protein is lower in protein than meat sources (Kaphas need > lower protein). Pittas would fall somewhere in between. > > It's a pleasure to make everyone's acquaintance. > > Lynn Durst Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2002 Report Share Posted January 31, 2002 , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote: > I'm hampered in trying to understand your post > by being unfamiliar with the terms you're using. > Can you either define them or tell me where > I can find the defintions of vata, kapha, and > pitta? These are Ayurvedic terms to distinguish body types. Ayurveda has three (Vata, Pitta, Kapha) as opposed to TCM's five (Fire, Earth, Metal, Water, Wood). As Todd mentioned previously: << " I think earth/water is much like kapha and wood/fire more like vata/pitta " >> Vata is cold, dry and light in nature. Pitta is hot, oily and moist in nature. Kapha is cold, damp and heavy in nature. Thus Kapha seems as though it would most closely correspond to an Earth/Water type in TCM. Pitta most closely corresponds to a Fire type, although it also displays aspects of Earth and Wood to varying degrees as well. I have been taught that Vata most closely relates to Yin Deficiency in TCM . This body type could be the most debatable as to how it relates to TCM types, but it seems to most frequently translate into a combo of Metal/Wood/Fire, depending on the individual. Vata also most typically displays weakness in Earth and Water. Vata is movement, Pitta is heat and Kapha is substance. It is my understanding that TCM evolved from Ayurveda. The terms are different but the basic principles the same. Therefore I have found it extremely helpful (if not imperative) to gain a full working knowledge of Ayurveda, before attempting to work with diet from a TCM perspective. It has much to offer. Lynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2002 Report Share Posted January 31, 2002 I don't think this is historically accurate. Both systems developed independently, as did Greco-Arabic medicine, but obviously there are aspects in common. Ayurvedic influences were visible in Chinese medicine in Sun Zi-miao's time, such as Nagarjuna's opthomology text in the 4th century, C.E., but this does not validate origin claims, as the Mawangdui manuscripts are very original in scope and over 3000 years old. On Thursday, January 31, 2002, at 11:17 AM, gdurst1774 wrote: > It is my understanding that TCM evolved from Ayurveda. The terms are > different but the basic principles the same. Therefore I have found > it extremely helpful (if not imperative) to gain a full working > knowledge of Ayurveda, before attempting to work with diet from a TCM > perspective. It has much to offer. > > Lynn > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2002 Report Share Posted January 31, 2002 Lynn, Thanks for the clarification. > > It is my understanding that TCM evolved from Ayurveda. The terms are > different but the basic principles the same. Therefore I have found > it extremely helpful (if not imperative) to gain a full working > knowledge of Ayurveda, before attempting to work with diet from a TCM > perspective. It has much to offer. Can you say where this understanding stems from? I'm not very familiar with the history of ayurvedic medicine. Do you have some details about this supposed evolution? Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2002 Report Share Posted February 1, 2002 , " dragon90405 " <yulong@m...> wrote: > Lynn, > Can you say where this understanding > stems from? I'm not very familiar with > the history of ayurvedic medicine. > Do you have some details about this > supposed evolution? Well it appears as though I am wrong about this from 's previous post. It's very likely that I may have misunderstood something that I read in the course I am taking ... or I suspect the course was speaking very generally, simply encouraging the basic understanding of Ayurvedic principles. Ayurvedic principles were outlined prior to the introduction of TCM principles. We have also been encouraged to utilize both, depending on the needs of the individual. Understanding Ayurveda has helped me to treat " the whole " more easily in regards to diet. Without full understanding of the constitutional element, I found myself more likely to " symptom chase " . Working with the two systems at once, narrows the field, allowing for a more accurate and reliable response. I have much to learn and I am by no means proficient! Yet, thus far it has proven to be a very promising approach. In corresponding with some of the other students, I found that many seemed more confused by this approach. Thus, as with everything ... it would not be helpful to everyone. I find that I have the most success if I determine Ayurvedic constitution first, determine which aspects may be related to imbalance, choose diet according to Ayurvedic principles and then ... fine tune utilizing TCM. The three Ayurvedic body types are basically condensed versions of TCM's five. Lynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2002 Report Share Posted February 1, 2002 Well Lynn, I'd have to agree that Adamo's blood type diet doesn't seem to work on me, although his theories are interesting. It's probably far more complicated than he makes out. If I were to follow his Type A grain-based diet I'd bloat and gain weight. I test out as a Kapha/pitta type-and the low carb diet works. In TCM terms I am more Earth/Metal, K-Sp Qi xu with dampness That means that a low carb diet puts me at odds with what I generally read as TCM dietary advice. But maybe not. If Fire isn't sufficiently controlling dampness, maybe more meats are needed. (Does anyone know where I can get a 5 elements food chart? I've misplaced my notes from Annemarie Colbin's class a decade or so ago.) And what do people think about generating heat? Karen Vaughan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2002 Report Share Posted February 1, 2002 , " creationsgarden " <creationsgarden@j...> wrote: > But maybe not. If Fire isn't sufficiently controlling dampness, > maybe more meats are needed. > And what do people think about generating heat? White meat chicken and turkey are fine but all other meats could pose problems. Dark meat poultry contains too much fat (generates heat) and red meats generate heat ... Beef is dampening due to it's correspondence with the Earth Element. Too much Damp will inevitably transform into heat. Pork tones the Yin and would be too cooling. Fish is fine occasionally, preferably lake fish. Ocean fish is salty which will in turn supplement Yin, not what you would want to do in this case. Tuna and Salmon are fatty and will also generate Heat and Damp. Thus Kapha/Pittas need to have a high proportion of their protein in the form of beans and legumes. The diuretic nature of these foods helps to distribute the moisture and eliminate excess. Yellow split peas are great. Since they are yellow ... they more strongly tonify the Spleen. Aduki's are very good too. They treat Damp-Heat, yet still have a neutral rather than cool nature and directly nourish the Heart. Toning the Heart .... tonifies the Spleen. Most all beans are fine with the exception of red lentils and mung beans. Kapha/Pittas do well with lots of cooked vegetables, but go easy on root vegetables. They tone Earth, but due to their correspondence with the Earth element, they also create Damp. Spices need to be restricted to mild neutral energied ones like cumin, coriander, fennel, dill. Grains are really tough with this body type. Grains in the form of dry cereals, even though not as nutritious as whole grain, are better because of the light and dry nature. Heavy, cooked cereals will pose problems. Barley is good in moderation, but it is cooling and needs to be used cautiously. Basmati rice is fine in moderation. Wild rice can be good. Dry oats good. Think " light and dry " . The biggest problem with grains that I have seen with this body type is that all of the grains (other than barley) that are good for Kapha (rye, corn, quinoa etc) .... aggravate Pitta. Thus one just exchanges one problem for another. Dietary treatment is more successful if one concentrates on clearing Damp as primary, rather than attempting to tone. One can't tone efficiently when Damp is present. Lynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2002 Report Share Posted February 1, 2002 And what do people think about generating heat? Karen Vaughan Karen, obesity and weight management are pretty difficult issues, as you have stated. In terms of heat, if one simplifies the types of heat into metabolic heat and pathological heat, we know that even if pathological heat is present there can easily be a lack of metabolic heat. Which means, in terms of TCM, yang xu and damp heat and or liver yang excess etc can co-exist. The question is whether increasing kidney yang in someone that has GB/Liv damp heat will add flame to the fire or not. I have tested this dicotomy on myself and others and, as a very general statement, find that Ki and Sp -yang tonics flame the fire more in those with severe stasis and heat than those with dampness and heat. Although, it greatly depends on the severity of the pathological heat and its pathogenesis. I'd be interested to know what others have found. In terms of weight loss products, most of them have appetite suppresants, almost all of which are stimulants, like ma huang. The " increasing metabolism " concept, of weight loss stimulants seems to be targeted at increasing the metabolic rate (nervous system) rather than improving the metabolism of nutrients. I believe that the reason people gain the weight back is just that reason, they have not improved the metabolism of nutrients. The hormone leptin is quite interesting in its relationship to weight management. It has been shown to influence what the body does with nutrients in the blood, i.e. whether to burn them up for energy or convert them and store them as triglycerides. Leptin also appears to regulate the rate at which stored nutrients, i.e. triglycerides, are broken and used as fuel for energy production. If leptin keeps taking potential energy in the blood and storing it, and not breaking down what is stored, then you get hungry a lot just to keep the Random Access nutrients available. I have been experimenting with ways to regulate the activity of leptin with herbs in order to improve the metabolism of nutrients for the sake of weight management. The jury is still out, although I will just mention that my findings do not in any way contradict what you would likely choose to do based on traditional concepts of CM. But I do believe that stimulating the metabolic rate, whether it is with heat inducing herbs, white crosses, cocaine, cigarettes, or coffee, in the end, will deplete the body's ability to produce its own heat, and that the proper utilization of stored energy (fat) and the effective use of recently consumed nutrients is really a key target for long term success. Which usually comes back to Sp yang, Ki yang, and relaxing the liver. Stephen Morrissey OMD Botanica BioScience Corp P.O. Box 1477 Ojai, CA 93024 Ph: 805-646-6062 Fx: 805-646-3026 email: stephen web: www.botanica-bioscience.com Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2002 Report Share Posted February 2, 2002 , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > I don't think this is historically accurate. Both systems developed > independently, as did Greco-Arabic medicine, but obviously there are > aspects in common. Ayurvedic influences were visible in Chinese > medicine in Sun Zi-miao's time, such as Nagarjuna's opthomology text in > the 4th century, C.E., but this does not validate origin claims, Ayurveda has accounts of a point system called marmas,many of which correspond to acupoints. the ayurveda system definitely predates the neijing and ma wang dui texts. however, there is no evidence that chinese acupuncture evolved from this system. this claim has been made by ayurveda proponents, but there is no archaeology or written texts available to substantiate this. However, it is also true that the culture of India was more advanced regarding medicine, technology and writing than the chinese at an earlier point in history. I believe the culture we think of as chinese (han) is probably no more than 3000 years old, while vedic culture is about 5000 years old. there is also some evidence form ayurvedic texts that are much older than the shen nong ben cao that india was already describing herbs via taste and temp. And even more interesting, the categories of herbs were more delineated in ancient India at an earlier period of history. I think the influence of buddhist monks from india in the 4th century onwards may have played a significant role in the evolution of chinese herbology from a pragmatic empirical science (as described by unschuld) into one based upon herb categories and pattern differentiation. TCM as a pattern based form of herbology only came to fruition in the jinyuan dynasties in the middle ages. ayurveda had been practicing pattern based herbology for at least the previous 1500 years. we know there was much communication between these two cultures, so while I wouldn't say TCM evolved from ayurveda, I suspect ayurveda inspired chinese physicians to develop their own system of pattern based herbology using their own native concepts (yinyang, five phase, channels, etc.) as the > Mawangdui manuscripts are very original in scope and over 3000 years old. these texts were in a tomb dated at 167 BC, a little more than 2000 years old Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2002 Report Share Posted February 2, 2002 , " creationsgarden " < creationsgarden@j...> wrote: > Well Lynn, I'd have to agree that Adamo's blood type diet doesn't > seem to work on me, although his theories are interesting. quite interesting, indeed, but I also have not found them to correlate well with either TCM, ayurveda or empirical clinical observations. Interestingly, since I am susceptible to placebo effects, I found myself reacting to foods that were wrong for my blood type when I was enamored of D'adamo and now have no such reactions since my fascination has subsided. the jury is definitely still out on this and till I know better, I will put my faith in time tested ideas, not the latest science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2002 Report Share Posted February 2, 2002 I have a friend, naturopath/acupuncturist, that works with James D'Adamo. James is Peter D'Adamo's father, and started the blood type diet. It is more involved than what they put out for mass consumption in the books, Peter's books. People also fall into sub-types and they use D'Adamo's system of iridology, which is supposed to further individualize treatments. In the end, besides dietary counseling they give people tons of supplements, or herbs, colonics, foot soaks, chiropractic, acupuncture etc.. So following the diet alone may not be enough to bring you into balance by their reckoning. ********************************************Sean P. Doherty, M.Sc., M.S., L.Ac., D.N.B.A.O.Nashua Natural Medicine76 Northeastern Blvd., Unit 36ANashua, NH 03062ph(603) 579-0956fax(603) 579-0957Healthcare for the whole family...Naturally!www.nashuanaturalmedicine.com 1 Saturday, February 02, 2002 5:24 PM Subject: Re: Conceptualizing the Atkins Diet, "creationsgarden" <creationsgarden@j...> wrote:> Well Lynn, I'd have to agree that Adamo's blood type diet doesn't > seem to work on me, although his theories are interesting. quite interesting, indeed, but I also have not found them to correlate well with either TCM, ayurveda or empirical clinical observations. Interestingly, since I am susceptible to placebo effects, I found myself reacting to foods that were wrong for my blood type when I was enamored of D'adamo and now have no such reactions since my fascination has subsided. the jury is definitely still out on this and till I know better, I will put my faith in time tested ideas, not the latest science.ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2002 Report Share Posted February 2, 2002 I agree that Ayurvedic medicine has outlined a comprehensive approach to dietetics that allows one to teach a coherent approach to people, even though the English language material on diagnosis by the tridoshas is somewhat simplified. The only English text I am aware of that has the full complexity of the medicine is Dr. Vasant Lad's book on pulse diagnosis. One of the reasons you are attracted to the Ayurvedic approach to diet is because little has been translated from Chinese on dietetics, certainly not enough to teach a coherent approach. From my observations, teachers of Ayurveda are generally more careful about their own practice of proper diet, and tend to emphasize it more with their patients that TCM practitioners do. On Friday, February 1, 2002, at 05:05 AM, gdurst1774 wrote: > > > Well it appears as though I am wrong about this from 's > previous post. It's very likely that I may have misunderstood > something that I read in the course I am taking ... or I suspect the > course was speaking very generally, simply encouraging the basic > understanding of Ayurvedic principles. Ayurvedic principles were > outlined prior to the introduction of TCM principles. We have also > been encouraged to utilize both, depending on the needs of the > individual. > > Understanding Ayurveda has helped me to treat " the whole " more easily > in regards to diet. Without full understanding of the constitutional > element, I found myself more likely to " symptom chase " . Working with > the two systems at once, narrows the field, allowing for a more > accurate and reliable response. I have much to learn and I am by no > means proficient! Yet, thus far it has proven to be a very promising > approach. > > In corresponding with some of the other students, I found that many > seemed more confused by this approach. Thus, as with everything ... > it would not be helpful to everyone. I find that I have the most > success if I determine Ayurvedic constitution first, determine which > aspects may be related to imbalance, choose diet according to > Ayurvedic principles and then ... fine tune utilizing TCM. The three > Ayurvedic body types are basically condensed versions of TCM's five. > > Lynn > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2002 Report Share Posted February 2, 2002 Origins in medicine are hard to trace, especially several thousand years ago, and are open to speculation. Often we hear claims in different cultures that may be patriotic, but questionable. Tibetan physicians I have spoken with claim that acupuncture came from Tibet and was passed on to China, although the evidence clearly is to the contrary. Undoubtedly Ayurvedic medicine influenced Chinese medicine. . . was there a reciprocal influence? Hard to say. Tibetan medicine we know was an interesting hybrid of Ayurvedic, Chinese and Greco-Arabic medicine. I have an interesting text by a Jewish physician in the 7th century that claims that Ayurvedic and Egyptian medicine jointly descended from teachings given to Noah on Mt. Ararat when the ark landed there. Yes, you are correct on the dating of the Mawangdui manuscripts. I'll be more careful next time. On Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 02:19 PM, 1 wrote: > Ayurveda has accounts of a point system called marmas,many of which > correspond to acupoints. the ayurveda system definitely predates the > neijing and ma wang dui texts. however, there is no evidence that > chinese acupuncture evolved from this system. this claim has been made > by ayurveda proponents, but there is no archaeology or written texts > available to substantiate this. However, it is also true that the > culture of India was more advanced regarding medicine, technology and > writing than the chinese at an earlier point in history. I believe the > culture we think of as chinese (han) is probably no more than 3000 > years old, while vedic culture is about 5000 years old. there is also > some evidence form ayurvedic texts that are much older than the shen > nong ben cao that india was already describing herbs via taste and > temp. And even more interesting, the categories of herbs were more > delineated in ancient India at an earlier period of history. I think > the influence of buddhist monks from india in the 4th century onwards > may have played a significant role in the evolution of chinese > herbology from a pragmatic empirical science (as described by unschuld) > into one based upon herb categories and pattern differentiation. TCM > as a pattern based form of herbology only came to fruition in the > jinyuan dynasties in the middle ages. ayurveda had been practicing > pattern based herbology for at least the previous 1500 years. we know > there was much communication between these two cultures, so while I > wouldn't say TCM evolved from ayurveda, I suspect ayurveda inspired > chinese physicians to develop their own system of pattern based > herbology using their own native concepts (yinyang, five phase, > channels, etc.) > > as the > > Mawangdui manuscripts are very original in scope and over 3000 years > old. > > these texts were in a tomb dated at 167 BC, a little more than 2000 > years old > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2002 Report Share Posted February 2, 2002 , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote:I have an interesting text by a Jewish physician in the 7th > century that claims that Ayurvedic and Egyptian medicine jointly > descended from teachings given to Noah on Mt. Ararat when the ark landed there. Z'ev: Who was left to give it to him? Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2002 Report Share Posted February 2, 2002 The angel Raphael (which means angel of healing in Hebrew). On Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 11:10 PM, jramholz wrote: > , " " <zrosenbe@s...> > wrote:I have an interesting text by a Jewish physician in the 7th > > century that claims that Ayurvedic and Egyptian medicine jointly > > descended from teachings given to Noah on Mt. Ararat when the ark > landed there. > > > Z'ev: > > Who was left to give it to him? > > Jim Ramholz > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2002 Report Share Posted February 3, 2002 7th> century >>>Zev how is the author. Also does it say ayurvedic? does it contain treatments? Alon - Sunday, February 03, 2002 1:29 AM Re: Re: Conceptualizing the Atkins Diet The angel Raphael (which means angel of healing in Hebrew).On Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 11:10 PM, jramholz wrote: , "" <zrosenbe@s...>wrote:I have an interesting text by a Jewish physician in the 7th> century that claims that Ayurvedic and Egyptian medicine jointly> descended from teachings given to Noah on Mt. Ararat when the arklanded there.Z'ev:Who was left to give it to him?Jim Ramholz Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2002 Report Share Posted February 3, 2002 The title is Assaph HaRofe, a manuscript translated by Fred Rosner. It was never officially published, because of the difficulty in figuring out some of the herbal medicinals from the Babylonian era after the destruction of the Temple. I have one of the few English copies in zerox manuscript. It is available in Hebrew, however. I don't remember if it uses the term ayurvedic, I'll look it up, but it discusses how the medical teachings spread into India, Egypt and Mesopotamia to become separate medical systems. On Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 09:44 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > 7th > > century > >>>Zev how is the author. Also does it say ayurvedic? does it contain > treatments? > Alon > > - > > > Sunday, February 03, 2002 1:29 AM > Re: Re: Conceptualizing the Atkins Diet > > The angel Raphael (which means angel of healing in Hebrew). > > > On Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 11:10 PM, jramholz wrote: > > , " " <zrosenbe@s...> > wrote:I have an interesting text by a Jewish physician in the 7th > > century that claims that Ayurvedic and Egyptian medicine jointly > > descended from teachings given to Noah on Mt. Ararat when the ark > landed there. > > > Z'ev: > > Who was left to give it to him? > > Jim Ramholz > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2002 Report Share Posted February 3, 2002 thanks - Sunday, February 03, 2002 1:09 PM Re: Re: Conceptualizing the Atkins Diet The title is Assaph HaRofe, a manuscript translated by Fred Rosner. It was never officially published, because of the difficulty in figuring out some of the herbal medicinals from the Babylonian era after the destruction of the Temple. I have one of the few English copies in zerox manuscript. It is available in Hebrew, however.I don't remember if it uses the term ayurvedic, I'll look it up, but it discusses how the medical teachings spread into India, Egypt and Mesopotamia to become separate medical systems.On Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 09:44 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: 7th> century>>>Zev how is the author. Also does it say ayurvedic? does it contain treatments?Alon- Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 1:29 AMRe: Re: Conceptualizing the Atkins DietThe angel Raphael (which means angel of healing in Hebrew).On Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 11:10 PM, jramholz wrote:, "" <zrosenbe@s...>wrote:I have an interesting text by a Jewish physician in the 7th> century that claims that Ayurvedic and Egyptian medicine jointly> descended from teachings given to Noah on Mt. Ararat when the arklanded there.Z'ev:Who was left to give it to him?Jim RamholzChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2002 Report Share Posted February 4, 2002 Stephen; Are you perchance coming to Rutgers for the next tox book meeting? DAVE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2002 Report Share Posted February 5, 2002 , acuman1@a... wrote: > Stephen; > Are you perchance coming to Rutgers for the next tox book meeting? > DAVE I got my biology degree at Rutgers. What meeting do you refer to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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