Guest guest Posted January 25, 2002 Report Share Posted January 25, 2002 Yesterday I translated an article from #11, 2001 Xin Zhong Yi (New ) about the treatment of sinus tachycardia as a side effect of chlorpromazine (Thorazine) by administering Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan (Heavenly Emperor Supplement the Heart Elixir). The author of this article stated that the Thorazine had caused yin vacuity-vacuity heat in the 102 patients they saw. (They gave a list of the s & s they believed added up to this pattern discrimination, including tongue & pulse.) As it turned out, compared to propanolol (Inderal, a common beta-blocking antiarrhythmia med), the Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan did not do as good a job decreasing the sinus tachycardia, but it did do a much better job at treating all the s & s of yin vacuity-vacuity heat. In addition, the Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan was without side effects. I think this article gives us a leg up on a possible CM description of Thorazine. This med is for the treatment of psychosis which, in CM, tends to get categorized as mania (kuang), and mania is mainly due to heat harassing the heart spirit, often complicated by phlegm. Commonly, this heat is located in the liver and stomach besides the heart. To me, that suggests it is commonly, at least in part, depressive heat. This is also my clinical observation. To me, this suggests that Thorazine achieves its sedative effect by upbearing and out-thrusting and, therefore, dispersing and scattering the heart spirit. If this is so, this would tally according to CM logic with its observed effect of causing yin vacuity-vacuity heat. It also suggests that Inderal does not achieve its effect of regulating the heart rhythm by enriching yin and clearing the heart. As the Chinese author states, heart palpitations and heart fluster are mostly due to heart yin vacuity with heat harassing the heart spirit causing the spirit qi to stir chaotically. If Inderal does not achieve its intended therapeutic effect by enriching yin and clearing the heart, then how, in CM terms, does it? This suggests that, like Thorazine and so many other Western meds, Inderal works by a tour de force as opposed to restoring harmony and balance. (By tour de force, I mean doing something by force and technical leverage which is not done in an organic, normal, or natural way.) Having just done some research on antiarrhythmia meds, it seems they are prone to adverse reactions. Any thoughts or comments? BTW, my translation of this article should be posted in the next few days at the Free Articles section of: www.chinesemedicalpsychiatry.com Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2002 Report Share Posted January 25, 2002 I'm sorry, the last message was sent before it was finished. Let's try again. This is a very interesting topic to me, for a number of reasons. 1) I have noticed this yin vacuity/vacuity heat related not only to thorazine, but to a number of medications, such as valium and klonopin, that are used in psychiatric medicine. I use tian wang bu xin dan quite often in these cases, along with such prescriptions as yi guan jian and zhi bai di huang wan, depending on pattern. They can be very helpful. I have one recent patient who was given valium on the thought that reducing his anxiety would help a chronic prostate problem. When I saw him, his tongue was shrivled, greasy yellow coat, bright red with sores, and his pulse was very rapid, hollow, and shaking. The mouth sores appeared after taking valium. He was also given cipro for his prostate previously, and used a steroidal inhaler for asthma. He had stopped using speed last summer as well. He was suffering from anxiety, restlessness and difficulty sleeping since returning from Israel, complained of jet lag as well. I diagnosed heart/kidney/liver yin vacuity with heart fire, and administered tian wang bu xin dan plus huang lian. 2) I agree that medications such as inderal (and many others) work as a 'tour-de-force'. . . and that is part of the problem with many prescription medications. The mechanical 'forcing' of biomechanisms can easily lead to systemic chaos, leading to undesirable side effects and functional problems. I know it is not 'politically correct', but I do see countless problems with overmedication of patients, who are given liberally combinations of strong medicinals leading to strong side effects. I could write volumes on what I see in clinic every day. It is a problem, we do need to recognize it. Iatrogenesis is a lot of what we treat. I also recognize the grey areas (as in the above case) where people 'self-medicate' with recreational drugs, or that often many of these medications are necessary. But if multiple medicines are the 'wave of the future' in biomedicine, because of the complexity of modern diseases, application of Chinese polypharmacy principles may be very helpful in the near future. On Friday, January 25, 2002, at 07:41 AM, pemachophel2001 wrote: > Yesterday I translated an article from #11, 2001 Xin Zhong Yi (New > ) about the treatment of sinus tachycardia as a side > effect of chlorpromazine (Thorazine) by administering Tian Wang Bu Xin > Dan (Heavenly Emperor Supplement the Heart Elixir). The author of this > article stated that the Thorazine had caused yin vacuity-vacuity heat > in the 102 patients they saw. (They gave a list of the s & s they > believed added up to this pattern discrimination, including tongue & > pulse.) As it turned out, compared to propanolol (Inderal, a common > beta-blocking antiarrhythmia med), the Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan did not do > as good a job decreasing the sinus tachycardia, but it did do a much > better job at treating all the s & s of yin vacuity-vacuity heat. In > addition, the Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan was without side effects. > > I think this article gives us a leg up on a possible CM description of > Thorazine. This med is for the treatment of psychosis which, in CM, > tends to get categorized as mania (kuang), and mania is mainly due to > heat harassing the heart spirit, often complicated by phlegm. > Commonly, this heat is located in the liver and stomach besides the > heart. To me, that suggests it is commonly, at least in part, > depressive heat. This is also my clinical observation. > > To me, this suggests that Thorazine achieves its sedative effect by > upbearing and out-thrusting and, therefore, dispersing and scattering > the heart spirit. If this is so, this would tally according to CM > logic with its observed effect of causing yin vacuity-vacuity heat. > > It also suggests that Inderal does not achieve its effect of > regulating the heart rhythm by enriching yin and clearing the heart. > As the Chinese author states, heart palpitations and heart fluster are > mostly due to heart yin vacuity with heat harassing the heart spirit > causing the spirit qi to stir chaotically. If Inderal does not achieve > its intended therapeutic effect by enriching yin and clearing the > heart, then how, in CM terms, does it? This suggests that, like > Thorazine and so many other Western meds, Inderal works by a tour de > force as opposed to restoring harmony and balance. (By tour de > force, I mean doing something by force and technical leverage > which is not done in an organic, normal, or natural way.) Having just > done some research on antiarrhythmia meds, it seems they are prone to > adverse reactions. > > Any thoughts or comments? > > BTW, my translation of this article should be posted in the next few > days at the Free Articles section of: www.chinesemedicalpsychiatry.com > > Bob > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2002 Report Share Posted January 25, 2002 antiarrhythmia meds >>>>This meds are usually much more toxic than bata blockers like indoral. Since indoral can block agitation and increase bronchial spasm it may work via reducing mingman function. Alon - pemachophel2001 Friday, January 25, 2002 7:41 AM Thorazine & CM Yesterday I translated an article from #11, 2001 Xin Zhong Yi (New ) about the treatment of sinus tachycardia as a side effect of chlorpromazine (Thorazine) by administering Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan (Heavenly Emperor Supplement the Heart Elixir). The author of this article stated that the Thorazine had caused yin vacuity-vacuity heat in the 102 patients they saw. (They gave a list of the s & s they believed added up to this pattern discrimination, including tongue & pulse.) As it turned out, compared to propanolol (Inderal, a common beta-blocking antiarrhythmia med), the Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan did not do as good a job decreasing the sinus tachycardia, but it did do a much better job at treating all the s & s of yin vacuity-vacuity heat. In addition, the Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan was without side effects.I think this article gives us a leg up on a possible CM description of Thorazine. This med is for the treatment of psychosis which, in CM, tends to get categorized as mania (kuang), and mania is mainly due to heat harassing the heart spirit, often complicated by phlegm. Commonly, this heat is located in the liver and stomach besides the heart. To me, that suggests it is commonly, at least in part, depressive heat. This is also my clinical observation. To me, this suggests that Thorazine achieves its sedative effect by upbearing and out-thrusting and, therefore, dispersing and scattering the heart spirit. If this is so, this would tally according to CM logic with its observed effect of causing yin vacuity-vacuity heat. It also suggests that Inderal does not achieve its effect of regulating the heart rhythm by enriching yin and clearing the heart. As the Chinese author states, heart palpitations and heart fluster are mostly due to heart yin vacuity with heat harassing the heart spirit causing the spirit qi to stir chaotically. If Inderal does not achieve its intended therapeutic effect by enriching yin and clearing the heart, then how, in CM terms, does it? This suggests that, like Thorazine and so many other Western meds, Inderal works by a tour de force as opposed to restoring harmony and balance. (By tour de force, I mean doing something by force and technical leverage which is not done in an organic, normal, or natural way.) Having just done some research on antiarrhythmia meds, it seems they are prone to adverse reactions.Any thoughts or comments?BTW, my translation of this article should be posted in the next few days at the Free Articles section of: www.chinesemedicalpsychiatry.comBobThe Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2002 Report Share Posted January 25, 2002 I know it is not 'politically correct', but I do see countless problems with overmedication of patients, who are given liberally combinations of strong medicinals leading to strong side effects. I could write volumes on what I see in clinic every day. It is a problem, we do need to recognize it. Iatrogenesis is a lot of what we treat >>>Why not politically correct? AAlon - Friday, January 25, 2002 4:50 PM Re: Thorazine & CM I'm sorry, the last message was sent before it was finished.Let's try again.This is a very interesting topic to me, for a number of reasons.1) I have noticed this yin vacuity/vacuity heat related not only to thorazine, but to a number of medications, such as valium and klonopin, that are used in psychiatric medicine. I use tian wang bu xin dan quite often in these cases, along with such prescriptions as yi guan jian and zhi bai di huang wan, depending on pattern. They can be very helpful.I have one recent patient who was given valium on the thought that reducing his anxiety would help a chronic prostate problem. When I saw him, his tongue was shrivled, greasy yellow coat, bright red with sores, and his pulse was very rapid, hollow, and shaking. The mouth sores appeared after taking valium. He was also given cipro for his prostate previously, and used a steroidal inhaler for asthma. He had stopped using speed last summer as well. He was suffering from anxiety, restlessness and difficulty sleeping since returning from Israel, complained of jet lag as well.I diagnosed heart/kidney/liver yin vacuity with heart fire, and administered tian wang bu xin dan plus huang lian. 2) I agree that medications such as inderal (and many others) work as a 'tour-de-force'. . . and that is part of the problem with many prescription medications. The mechanical 'forcing' of biomechanisms can easily lead to systemic chaos, leading to undesirable side effects and functional problems. I know it is not 'politically correct', but I do see countless problems with overmedication of patients, who are given liberally combinations of strong medicinals leading to strong side effects. I could write volumes on what I see in clinic every day. It is a problem, we do need to recognize it. Iatrogenesis is a lot of what we treat.I also recognize the grey areas (as in the above case) where people 'self-medicate' with recreational drugs, or that often many of these medications are necessary. But if multiple medicines are the 'wave of the future' in biomedicine, because of the complexity of modern diseases, application of Chinese polypharmacy principles may be very helpful in the near future.On Friday, January 25, 2002, at 07:41 AM, pemachophel2001 wrote: Yesterday I translated an article from #11, 2001 Xin Zhong Yi (New) about the treatment of sinus tachycardia as a sideeffect of chlorpromazine (Thorazine) by administering Tian Wang Bu XinDan (Heavenly Emperor Supplement the Heart Elixir). The author of thisarticle stated that the Thorazine had caused yin vacuity-vacuity heatin the 102 patients they saw. (They gave a list of the s & s theybelieved added up to this pattern discrimination, including tongue & pulse.) As it turned out, compared to propanolol (Inderal, a common beta-blocking antiarrhythmia med), the Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan did not doas good a job decreasing the sinus tachycardia, but it did do a muchbetter job at treating all the s & s of yin vacuity-vacuity heat. Inaddition, the Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan was without side effects.I think this article gives us a leg up on a possible CM description ofThorazine. This med is for the treatment of psychosis which, in CM,tends to get categorized as mania (kuang), and mania is mainly due toheat harassing the heart spirit, often complicated by phlegm.Commonly, this heat is located in the liver and stomach besides theheart. To me, that suggests it is commonly, at least in part,depressive heat. This is also my clinical observation.To me, this suggests that Thorazine achieves its sedative effect byupbearing and out-thrusting and, therefore, dispersing and scatteringthe heart spirit. If this is so, this would tally according to CMlogic with its observed effect of causing yin vacuity-vacuity heat.It also suggests that Inderal does not achieve its effect ofregulating the heart rhythm by enriching yin and clearing the heart.As the Chinese author states, heart palpitations and heart fluster aremostly due to heart yin vacuity with heat harassing the heart spiritcausing the spirit qi to stir chaotically. If Inderal does not achieveits intended therapeutic effect by enriching yin and clearing theheart, then how, in CM terms, does it? This suggests that, likeThorazine and so many other Western meds, Inderal works by a tour deforce as opposed to restoring harmony and balance. (By tour deforce, I mean doing something by force and technical leveragewhich is not done in an organic, normal, or natural way.) Having justdone some research on antiarrhythmia meds, it seems they are prone toadverse reactions.Any thoughts or comments?BTW, my translation of this article should be posted in the next fewdays at the Free Articles section of: www.chinesemedicalpsychiatry.comBob Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2002 Report Share Posted January 26, 2002 Z'ev, Bob, Alon, and all, This area iatrogenesis from combinations of strong medicinals that we see so much of--It is a vast gap in my knowledge. People on this list so far have been helpful in opening up the considerations. I'd like to see more discussions. Cases are a good way to begin. Thank you. Frances Z'ev wrote: <I do see countless problems with overmedication of patients, who are given liberally combinations of strong medicinals leading to strong side effects. I could write volumes on what I see in clinic every day. It is a problem, we do need to recognize it. Iatrogenesis is a lot of what we treat> - Z'ev Rosenberg Friday, January 25, 2002 4:50 PM Re: Thorazine & CM I'm sorry, the last message was sent before it was finished. Let's try again. This is a very interesting topic to me, for a number of reasons. 1) I have noticed this yin vacuity/vacuity heat related not only to thorazine, but to a number of medications, such as valium and klonopin, that are used in psychiatric medicine. I use tian wang bu xin dan quite often in these cases, along with such prescriptions as yi guan jian and zhi bai di huang wan, depending on pattern. They can be very helpful. I have one recent patient who was given valium on the thought that reducing his anxiety would help a chronic prostate problem. When I saw him, his tongue was shrivled, greasy yellow coat, bright red with sores, and his pulse was very rapid, hollow, and shaking. The mouth sores appeared after taking valium. He was also given cipro for his prostate previously, and used a steroidal inhaler for asthma. He had stopped using speed last summer as well. He was suffering from anxiety, restlessness and difficulty sleeping since returning from Israel, complained of jet lag as well. I diagnosed heart/kidney/liver yin vacuity with heart fire, and administered tian wang bu xin dan plus huang lian. 2) I agree that medications such as inderal (and many others) work as a 'tour-de-force'. . . and that is part of the problem with many prescription medications. The mechanical 'forcing' of biomechanisms can easily lead to systemic chaos, leading to undesirable side effects and functional problems. I know it is not 'politically correct', but I do see countless problems with overmedication of patients, who are given liberally combinations of strong medicinals leading to strong side effects. I could write volumes on what I see in clinic every day. It is a problem, we do need to recognize it. Iatrogenesis is a lot of what we treat. I also recognize the grey areas (as in the above case) where people 'self-medicate' with recreational drugs, or that often many of these medications are necessary. But if multiple medicines are the 'wave of the future' in biomedicine, because of the complexity of modern diseases, application of Chinese polypharmacy principles may be very helpful in the near future. On Friday, January 25, 2002, at 07:41 AM, pemachophel2001 wrote: <?bigger>Yesterday I translated an article from #11, 2001 Xin Zhong Yi (New ) about the treatment of sinus tachycardia as a side effect of chlorpromazine (Thorazine) by administering Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan (Heavenly Emperor Supplement the Heart Elixir). The author of this article stated that the Thorazine had caused yin vacuity-vacuity heat in the 102 patients they saw. (They gave a list of the s & s they believed added up to this pattern discrimination, including tongue & pulse.) As it turned out, compared to propanolol (Inderal, a common beta-blocking antiarrhythmia med), the Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan did not do as good a job decreasing the sinus tachycardia, but it did do a much better job at treating all the s & s of yin vacuity-vacuity heat. In addition, the Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan was without side effects. I think this article gives us a leg up on a possible CM description of Thorazine. This med is for the treatment of psychosis which, in CM, tends to get categorized as mania (kuang), and mania is mainly due to heat harassing the heart spirit, often complicated by phlegm. Commonly, this heat is located in the liver and stomach besides the heart. To me, that suggests it is commonly, at least in part, depressive heat. This is also my clinical observation. To me, this suggests that Thorazine achieves its sedative effect by upbearing and out-thrusting and, therefore, dispersing and scattering the heart spirit. If this is so, this would tally according to CM logic with its observed effect of causing yin vacuity-vacuity heat. It also suggests that Inderal does not achieve its effect of regulating the heart rhythm by enriching yin and clearing the heart. As the Chinese author states, heart palpitations and heart fluster are mostly due to heart yin vacuity with heat harassing the heart spirit causing the spirit qi to stir chaotically. If Inderal does not achieve its intended therapeutic effect by enriching yin and clearing the heart, then how, in CM terms, does it? This suggests that, like Thorazine and so many other Western meds, Inderal works by a tour de force as opposed to restoring harmony and balance. (By tour de force, I mean doing something by force and technical leverage which is not done in an organic, normal, or natural way.) Having just done some research on antiarrhythmia meds, it seems they are prone to adverse reactions. Any thoughts or comments? BTW, my translation of this article should be posted in the next few days at the Free Articles section of: www.chinesemedicalpsychiatry.com Bob Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2002 Report Share Posted January 26, 2002 This area iatrogenesis from combinations of strong medicinals that we see so much of-- >>>>Unfortunately the problem is so large that even the biomedical community does not know much about it. Remember that there are very few studies not drug combinations. Most of the information is empirical. So any time you hear somebody criticize herbalogy just remind them of this issue Alon - Frances Gander Saturday, January 26, 2002 6:13 AM Re: Thorazine & CM Z'ev, Bob, Alon, and all, This area iatrogenesis from combinations of strong medicinals that we see so much of--It is a vast gap in my knowledge. People on this list so far have been helpful in opening up the considerations. I'd like to see more discussions. Cases are a good way to begin. Thank you. Frances Z'ev wrote: <I do see countless problems with overmedication of patients, who are given liberally combinations of strong medicinals leading to strong side effects. I could write volumes on what I see in clinic every day. It is a problem, we do need to recognize it. Iatrogenesis is a lot of what we treat> - Friday, January 25, 2002 4:50 PM Re: Thorazine & CM I'm sorry, the last message was sent before it was finished. Let's try again. This is a very interesting topic to me, for a number of reasons. 1) I have noticed this yin vacuity/vacuity heat related not only to thorazine, but to a number of medications, such as valium and klonopin, that are used in psychiatric medicine. I use tian wang bu xin dan quite often in these cases, along with such prescriptions as yi guan jian and zhi bai di huang wan, depending on pattern. They can be very helpful. I have one recent patient who was given valium on the thought that reducing his anxiety would help a chronic prostate problem. When I saw him, his tongue was shrivled, greasy yellow coat, bright red with sores, and his pulse was very rapid, hollow, and shaking. The mouth sores appeared after taking valium. He was also given cipro for his prostate previously, and used a steroidal inhaler for asthma. He had stopped using speed last summer as well. He was suffering from anxiety, restlessness and difficulty sleeping since returning from Israel, complained of jet lag as well. I diagnosed heart/kidney/liver yin vacuity with heart fire, and administered tian wang bu xin dan plus huang lian. 2) I agree that medications such as inderal (and many others) work as a 'tour-de-force'. . . and that is part of the problem with many prescription medications. The mechanical 'forcing' of biomechanisms can easily lead to systemic chaos, leading to undesirable side effects and functional problems. I know it is not 'politically correct', but I do see countless problems with overmedication of patients, who are given liberally combinations of strong medicinals leading to strong side effects. I could write volumes on what I see in clinic every day. It is a problem, we do need to recognize it. Iatrogenesis is a lot of what we treat. I also recognize the grey areas (as in the above case) where people 'self-medicate' with recreational drugs, or that often many of these medications are necessary. But if multiple medicines are the 'wave of the future' in biomedicine, because of the complexity of modern diseases, application of Chinese polypharmacy principles may be very helpful in the near future. On Friday, January 25, 2002, at 07:41 AM, pemachophel2001 wrote: <?bigger>Yesterday I translated an article from #11, 2001 Xin Zhong Yi (New ) about the treatment of sinus tachycardia as a side effect of chlorpromazine (Thorazine) by administering Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan (Heavenly Emperor Supplement the Heart Elixir). The author of this article stated that the Thorazine had caused yin vacuity-vacuity heat in the 102 patients they saw. (They gave a list of the s & s they believed added up to this pattern discrimination, including tongue & pulse.) As it turned out, compared to propanolol (Inderal, a common beta-blocking antiarrhythmia med), the Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan did not do as good a job decreasing the sinus tachycardia, but it did do a much better job at treating all the s & s of yin vacuity-vacuity heat. In addition, the Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan was without side effects. I think this article gives us a leg up on a possible CM description of Thorazine. This med is for the treatment of psychosis which, in CM, tends to get categorized as mania (kuang), and mania is mainly due to heat harassing the heart spirit, often complicated by phlegm. Commonly, this heat is located in the liver and stomach besides the heart. To me, that suggests it is commonly, at least in part, depressive heat. This is also my clinical observation. To me, this suggests that Thorazine achieves its sedative effect by upbearing and out-thrusting and, therefore, dispersing and scattering the heart spirit. If this is so, this would tally according to CM logic with its observed effect of causing yin vacuity-vacuity heat. It also suggests that Inderal does not achieve its effect of regulating the heart rhythm by enriching yin and clearing the heart. As the Chinese author states, heart palpitations and heart fluster are mostly due to heart yin vacuity with heat harassing the heart spirit causing the spirit qi to stir chaotically. If Inderal does not achieve its intended therapeutic effect by enriching yin and clearing the heart, then how, in CM terms, does it? This suggests that, like Thorazine and so many other Western meds, Inderal works by a tour de force as opposed to restoring harmony and balance. (By tour de force, I mean doing something by force and technical leverage which is not done in an organic, normal, or natural way.) Having just done some research on antiarrhythmia meds, it seems they are prone to adverse reactions. Any thoughts or comments? BTW, my translation of this article should be posted in the next few days at the Free Articles section of: www.chinesemedicalpsychiatry.com Bob Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2002 Report Share Posted January 26, 2002 Alon Marcus wrote: This area iatrogenesis from combinations of strong medicinals that we see so much of-->>>>Unfortunately the problem is so large that even the biomedical community does not know much about it. Remember that there are very few studies not drug combinations. Most of the information is empirical. So any time you hear somebody criticize herbalogy just remind them of this issueAlon Alon, this is good to know. Frances - Frances Gander Saturday, January 26, 2002 6:13 AM Re: Thorazine & CM Z'ev, Bob, Alon, and all, This area iatrogenesis from combinations of strong medicinals that we see so much of--It is a vast gap in my knowledge. People on this list so far have been helpful in opening up the considerations. I'd like to see more discussions. Cases are a good way to begin. Thank you. Frances Z'ev wrote: <I do see countless problems with overmedication of patients, who are given liberally combinations of strong medicinals leading to strong side effects. I could write volumes on what I see in clinic every day. It is a problem, we do need to recognize it. Iatrogenesis is a lot of what we treat> - Z'ev Rosenberg Friday, January 25, 2002 4:50 PM Re: Thorazine & CM I'm sorry, the last message was sent before it was finished. Let's try again. This is a very interesting topic to me, for a number of reasons. 1) I have noticed this yin vacuity/vacuity heat related not only to thorazine, but to a number of medications, such as valium and klonopin, that are used in psychiatric medicine. I use tian wang bu xin dan quite often in these cases, along with such prescriptions as yi guan jian and zhi bai di huang wan, depending on pattern. They can be very helpful. I have one recent patient who was given valium on the thought that reducing his anxiety would help a chronic prostate problem. When I saw him, his tongue was shrivled, greasy yellow coat, bright red with sores, and his pulse was very rapid, hollow, and shaking. The mouth sores appeared after taking valium. He was also given cipro for his prostate previously, and used a steroidal inhaler for asthma. He had stopped using speed last summer as well. He was suffering from anxiety, restlessness and difficulty sleeping since returning from Israel, complained of jet lag as well. I diagnosed heart/kidney/liver yin vacuity with heart fire, and administered tian wang bu xin dan plus huang lian. 2) I agree that medications such as inderal (and many others) work as a 'tour-de-force'. . . and that is part of the problem with many prescription medications. The mechanical 'forcing' of biomechanisms can easily lead to systemic chaos, leading to undesirable side effects and functional problems. I know it is not 'politically correct', but I do see countless problems with overmedication of patients, who are given liberally combinations of strong medicinals leading to strong side effects. I could write volumes on what I see in clinic every day. It is a problem, we do need to recognize it. Iatrogenesis is a lot of what we treat. I also recognize the grey areas (as in the above case) where people 'self-medicate' with recreational drugs, or that often many of these medications are necessary. But if multiple medicines are the 'wave of the future' in biomedicine, because of the complexity of modern diseases, application of Chinese polypharmacy principles may be very helpful in the near future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2002 Report Share Posted January 26, 2002 Although I admit at times in the past my tone has been strident, I have been accused of being " anti-Western medicine " when I point out problems such as overmedication, iatrogenesis, and unnecessary procedures. So I have toned down my 'rhetoric'. Although I still see these problems happening, I also appreciate the strengths of biomedicine. I believe strongly in Hippocrates credo, " first do no harm " , and it upsets me when I see it violated so easily, often without conscience. Many physicians I communicate with actually agree with my concerns. In a time when 'integrative medicine' has been the popular agenda . there seems to be fear of criticizing biomedical practices, when some of them are damaging and not in the best interest of patients. Constructive criticism could be very helpful in improving the overall character of medicine. On Friday, January 25, 2002, at 06:33 PM, ALON MARCUS wrote: > I know it is not 'politically correct', but I do see countless problems > with overmedication of patients, who are given liberally combinations > of strong medicinals leading to strong side effects. I could write > volumes on what I see in clinic every day. It is a problem, we do need > to recognize it. Iatrogenesis is a lot of what we treat > >>>Why not politically correct? > AAlon > > - > > > Friday, January 25, 2002 4:50 PM > Re: Thorazine & CM > > I'm sorry, the last message was sent before it was finished. > > Let's try again. > > > This is a very interesting topic to me, for a number of reasons. > > 1) I have noticed this yin vacuity/vacuity heat related not only to > thorazine, but to a number of medications, such as valium and klonopin, > that are used in psychiatric medicine. I use tian wang bu xin dan quite > often in these cases, along with such prescriptions as yi guan jian and > zhi bai di huang wan, depending on pattern. They can be very helpful. > > I have one recent patient who was given valium on the thought that > reducing his anxiety would help a chronic prostate problem. When I saw > him, his tongue was shrivled, greasy yellow coat, bright red with > sores, and his pulse was very rapid, hollow, and shaking. The mouth > sores appeared after taking valium. He was also given cipro for his > prostate previously, and used a steroidal inhaler for asthma. He had > stopped using speed last summer as well. > > He was suffering from anxiety, restlessness and difficulty sleeping > since returning from Israel, complained of jet lag as well. > > I diagnosed heart/kidney/liver yin vacuity with heart fire, and > administered tian wang bu xin dan plus huang lian. > > 2) I agree that medications such as inderal (and many others) work as a > 'tour-de-force'. . . and that is part of the problem with many > prescription medications. The mechanical 'forcing' of biomechanisms can > easily lead to systemic chaos, leading to undesirable side effects and > functional problems. > > I know it is not 'politically correct', but I do see countless problems > with overmedication of patients, who are given liberally combinations > of strong medicinals leading to strong side effects. I could write > volumes on what I see in clinic every day. It is a problem, we do need > to recognize it. Iatrogenesis is a lot of what we treat. > > I also recognize the grey areas (as in the above case) where people > 'self-medicate' with recreational drugs, or that often many of these > medications are necessary. But if multiple medicines are the 'wave of > the future' in biomedicine, because of the complexity of modern > diseases, application of Chinese polypharmacy principles may be very > helpful in the near future. > > > > > > On Friday, January 25, 2002, at 07:41 AM, pemachophel2001 wrote: > > Yesterday I translated an article from #11, 2001 Xin Zhong Yi (New > ) about the treatment of sinus tachycardia as a side > effect of chlorpromazine (Thorazine) by administering Tian Wang Bu Xin > Dan (Heavenly Emperor Supplement the Heart Elixir). The author of this > article stated that the Thorazine had caused yin vacuity-vacuity heat > in the 102 patients they saw. (They gave a list of the s & s they > believed added up to this pattern discrimination, including tongue & > pulse.) As it turned out, compared to propanolol (Inderal, a common > beta-blocking antiarrhythmia med), the Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan did not do > as good a job decreasing the sinus tachycardia, but it did do a much > better job at treating all the s & s of yin vacuity-vacuity heat. In > addition, the Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan was without side effects. > > I think this article gives us a leg up on a possible CM description of > Thorazine. This med is for the treatment of psychosis which, in CM, > tends to get categorized as mania (kuang), and mania is mainly due to > heat harassing the heart spirit, often complicated by phlegm. > Commonly, this heat is located in the liver and stomach besides the > heart. To me, that suggests it is commonly, at least in part, > depressive heat. This is also my clinical observation. > > To me, this suggests that Thorazine achieves its sedative effect by > upbearing and out-thrusting and, therefore, dispersing and scattering > the heart spirit. If this is so, this would tally according to CM > logic with its observed effect of causing yin vacuity-vacuity heat. > > It also suggests that Inderal does not achieve its effect of > regulating the heart rhythm by enriching yin and clearing the heart. > As the Chinese author states, heart palpitations and heart fluster are > mostly due to heart yin vacuity with heat harassing the heart spirit > causing the spirit qi to stir chaotically. If Inderal does not achieve > its intended therapeutic effect by enriching yin and clearing the > heart, then how, in CM terms, does it? This suggests that, like > Thorazine and so many other Western meds, Inderal works by a tour de > force as opposed to restoring harmony and balance. (By tour de > force, I mean doing something by force and technical leverage > which is not done in an organic, normal, or natural way.) Having just > done some research on antiarrhythmia meds, it seems they are prone to > adverse reactions. > > Any thoughts or comments? > > BTW, my translation of this article should be posted in the next few > days at the Free Articles section of: www.chinesemedicalpsychiatry.com > > Bob > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2002 Report Share Posted January 26, 2002 I agree 100%. Amplification of toxicity through drug combinations is one of the unrecognized major issues in medicine today. On Saturday, January 26, 2002, at 09:00 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > This area iatrogenesis from combinations of strong medicinals that we > see so much of-- > >>>>Unfortunately the problem is so large that even the biomedical > community does not know much about it. Remember that there are very few > studies not drug combinations. Most of the information is empirical. So > any time you hear somebody criticize herbalogy just remind them of this > issue > Alon > > - > Frances Gander > > Saturday, January 26, 2002 6:13 AM > Re: Thorazine & CM > > Z'ev, Bob, Alon, and all, > > This area iatrogenesis from combinations of strong medicinals that we > see so much of--It is a vast gap in my knowledge. People on this list > so far have been helpful in opening up the considerations. I'd like to > see more discussions. Cases are a good way to begin. Thank you. > > Frances > > Z'ev wrote: > > <I do see countless problems with overmedication of patients, who are > given liberally combinations of strong medicinals leading to strong > side effects. I could write volumes on what I see in clinic every day. > It is a problem, we do need to recognize it. Iatrogenesis is a lot of > what we treat> > > - > > > Friday, January 25, 2002 4:50 PM > Re: Thorazine & CM > I'm sorry, the last message was sent before it was finished. > > Let's try again. > > > This is a very interesting topic to me, for a number of reasons. > > 1) I have noticed this yin vacuity/vacuity heat related not only to > thorazine, but to a number of medications, such as valium and klonopin, > that are used in psychiatric medicine. I use tian wang bu xin dan quite > often in these cases, along with such prescriptions as yi guan jian and > zhi bai di huang wan, depending on pattern. They can be very helpful. > > I have one recent patient who was given valium on the thought that > reducing his anxiety would help a chronic prostate problem. When I saw > him, his tongue was shrivled, greasy yellow coat, bright red with > sores, and his pulse was very rapid, hollow, and shaking. The mouth > sores appeared after taking valium. He was also given cipro for his > prostate previously, and used a steroidal inhaler for asthma. He had > stopped using speed last summer as well. > > He was suffering from anxiety, restlessness and difficulty sleeping > since returning from Israel, complained of jet lag as well. > > I diagnosed heart/kidney/liver yin vacuity with heart fire, and > administered tian wang bu xin dan plus huang lian. > > 2) I agree that medications such as inderal (and many others) work as a > 'tour-de-force'. . . and that is part of the problem with many > prescription medications. The mechanical 'forcing' of biomechanisms can > easily lead to systemic chaos, leading to undesirable side effects and > functional problems. > > I know it is not 'politically correct', but I do see countless problems > with overmedication of patients, who are given liberally combinations > of strong medicinals leading to strong side effects. I could write > volumes on what I see in clinic every day. It is a problem, we do need > to recognize it. Iatrogenesis is a lot of what we treat. > > I also recognize the grey areas (as in the above case) where people > 'self-medicate' with recreational drugs, or that often many of these > medications are necessary. But if multiple medicines are the 'wave of > the future' in biomedicine, because of the complexity of modern > diseases, application of Chinese polypharmacy principles may be very > helpful in the near future. > > > > On Friday, January 25, 2002, at 07:41 AM, pemachophel2001 wrote: > > > <?bigger>Yesterday I translated an article from #11, 2001 Xin Zhong Yi > (New > ) about the treatment of sinus tachycardia as a side > effect of chlorpromazine (Thorazine) by administering Tian Wang Bu Xin > Dan (Heavenly Emperor Supplement the Heart Elixir). The author of this > article stated that the Thorazine had caused yin vacuity-vacuity heat > in the 102 patients they saw. (They gave a list of the s & s they > believed added up to this pattern discrimination, including tongue & > pulse.) As it turned out, compared to propanolol (Inderal, a common > beta-blocking antiarrhythmia med), the Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan did not do > as good a job decreasing the sinus tachycardia, but it did do a much > better job at treating all the s & s of yin vacuity-vacuity heat. In > addition, the Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan was without side effects. > > I think this article gives us a leg up on a possible CM description of > Thorazine. This med is for the treatment of psychosis which, in CM, > tends to get categorized as mania (kuang), and mania is mainly due to > heat harassing the heart spirit, often complicated by phlegm. > Commonly, this heat is located in the liver and stomach besides the > heart. To me, that suggests it is commonly, at least in part, > depressive heat. This is also my clinical observation. > > To me, this suggests that Thorazine achieves its sedative effect by > upbearing and out-thrusting and, therefore, dispersing and scattering > the heart spirit. If this is so, this would tally according to CM > logic with its observed effect of causing yin vacuity-vacuity heat. > > It also suggests that Inderal does not achieve its effect of > regulating the heart rhythm by enriching yin and clearing the heart. > As the Chinese author states, heart palpitations and heart fluster are > mostly due to heart yin vacuity with heat harassing the heart spirit > causing the spirit qi to stir chaotically. If Inderal does not achieve > its intended therapeutic effect by enriching yin and clearing the > heart, then how, in CM terms, does it? This suggests that, like > Thorazine and so many other Western meds, Inderal works by a tour de > force as opposed to restoring harmony and balance. (By tour de > force, I mean doing something by force and technical leverage > which is not done in an organic, normal, or natural way.) Having just > done some research on antiarrhythmia meds, it seems they are prone to > adverse reactions. > > Any thoughts or comments? > > BTW, my translation of this article should be posted in the next few > days at the Free Articles section of: www.chinesemedicalpsychiatry.com > > Bob > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2002 Report Share Posted January 26, 2002 Z'ev: I, for one, don't think you should be faulted for being strident. In JAMA several years ago, there was a meta-study that revealed over 100,000 (sic) patients die each year from meds even when correctly prescribed (deaths from abuse being a separate issue). In an aging population, overmedication compounds the organic problems. Jim Ramholz , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > Although I admit at times in the past my tone has been strident, I have > been accused of being " anti-Western medicine " when I point out problems > such as overmedication, iatrogenesis, and unnecessary procedures. So I > have toned down my 'rhetoric'. Although I still see these problems > happening, I also appreciate the strengths of biomedicine. I believe > strongly in Hippocrates credo, " first do no harm " , and it upsets me > when I see it violated so easily, often without conscience. Many > physicians I communicate with actually agree with my concerns. > > In a time when 'integrative medicine' has been the popular agenda . > there seems to be fear of criticizing biomedical practices, when some of > them are damaging and not in the best interest of patients. > Constructive criticism could be very helpful in improving the overall > character of medicine. > > > On Friday, January 25, 2002, at 06:33 PM, ALON MARCUS wrote: > > > I know it is not 'politically correct', but I do see countless problems > > with overmedication of patients, who are given liberally combinations > > of strong medicinals leading to strong side effects. I could write > > volumes on what I see in clinic every day. It is a problem, we do need > > to recognize it. Iatrogenesis is a lot of what we treat > > >>>Why not politically correct? > > AAlon > > > > - > > > > > > Friday, January 25, 2002 4:50 PM > > Re: Thorazine & CM > > > > I'm sorry, the last message was sent before it was finished. > > > > Let's try again. > > > > > > This is a very interesting topic to me, for a number of reasons. > > > > 1) I have noticed this yin vacuity/vacuity heat related not only to > > thorazine, but to a number of medications, such as valium and klonopin, > > that are used in psychiatric medicine. I use tian wang bu xin dan quite > > often in these cases, along with such prescriptions as yi guan jian and > > zhi bai di huang wan, depending on pattern. They can be very helpful. > > > > I have one recent patient who was given valium on the thought that > > reducing his anxiety would help a chronic prostate problem. When I saw > > him, his tongue was shrivled, greasy yellow coat, bright red with > > sores, and his pulse was very rapid, hollow, and shaking. The mouth > > sores appeared after taking valium. He was also given cipro for his > > prostate previously, and used a steroidal inhaler for asthma. He had > > stopped using speed last summer as well. > > > > He was suffering from anxiety, restlessness and difficulty sleeping > > since returning from Israel, complained of jet lag as well. > > > > I diagnosed heart/kidney/liver yin vacuity with heart fire, and > > administered tian wang bu xin dan plus huang lian. > > > > 2) I agree that medications such as inderal (and many others) work as a > > 'tour-de-force'. . . and that is part of the problem with many > > prescription medications. The mechanical 'forcing' of biomechanisms can > > easily lead to systemic chaos, leading to undesirable side effects and > > functional problems. > > > > I know it is not 'politically correct', but I do see countless problems > > with overmedication of patients, who are given liberally combinations > > of strong medicinals leading to strong side effects. I could write > > volumes on what I see in clinic every day. It is a problem, we do need > > to recognize it. Iatrogenesis is a lot of what we treat. > > > > I also recognize the grey areas (as in the above case) where people > > 'self-medicate' with recreational drugs, or that often many of these > > medications are necessary. But if multiple medicines are the 'wave of > > the future' in biomedicine, because of the complexity of modern > > diseases, application of Chinese polypharmacy principles may be very > > helpful in the near future. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Friday, January 25, 2002, at 07:41 AM, pemachophel2001 wrote: > > > > Yesterday I translated an article from #11, 2001 Xin Zhong Yi (New > > ) about the treatment of sinus tachycardia as a side > > effect of chlorpromazine (Thorazine) by administering Tian Wang Bu Xin > > Dan (Heavenly Emperor Supplement the Heart Elixir). The author of this > > article stated that the Thorazine had caused yin vacuity-vacuity heat > > in the 102 patients they saw. (They gave a list of the s & s they > > believed added up to this pattern discrimination, including tongue & > > pulse.) As it turned out, compared to propanolol (Inderal, a common > > beta-blocking antiarrhythmia med), the Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan did not do > > as good a job decreasing the sinus tachycardia, but it did do a much > > better job at treating all the s & s of yin vacuity-vacuity heat. In > > addition, the Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan was without side effects. > > > > I think this article gives us a leg up on a possible CM description of > > Thorazine. This med is for the treatment of psychosis which, in CM, > > tends to get categorized as mania (kuang), and mania is mainly due to > > heat harassing the heart spirit, often complicated by phlegm. > > Commonly, this heat is located in the liver and stomach besides the > > heart. To me, that suggests it is commonly, at least in part, > > depressive heat. This is also my clinical observation. > > > > To me, this suggests that Thorazine achieves its sedative effect by > > upbearing and out-thrusting and, therefore, dispersing and scattering > > the heart spirit. If this is so, this would tally according to CM > > logic with its observed effect of causing yin vacuity-vacuity heat. > > > > It also suggests that Inderal does not achieve its effect of > > regulating the heart rhythm by enriching yin and clearing the heart. > > As the Chinese author states, heart palpitations and heart fluster are > > mostly due to heart yin vacuity with heat harassing the heart spirit > > causing the spirit qi to stir chaotically. If Inderal does not achieve > > its intended therapeutic effect by enriching yin and clearing the > > heart, then how, in CM terms, does it? This suggests that, like > > Thorazine and so many other Western meds, Inderal works by a tour de > > force as opposed to restoring harmony and balance. (By tour de > > force, I mean doing something by force and technical leverage > > which is not done in an organic, normal, or natural way.) Having just > > done some research on antiarrhythmia meds, it seems they are prone to > > adverse reactions. > > > > Any thoughts or comments? > > > > BTW, my translation of this article should be posted in the next few > > days at the Free Articles section of: www.chinesemedicalpsychiatry.com > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > > education. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2002 Report Share Posted January 26, 2002 , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > Constructive criticism could be very helpful in improving the overall > character of medicine. I agree. In the case of meds,it is certainly illuminating how many of these meds seem to exert their actions via effects that damage the zheng qi. they would be classed as inferior meds in the shen nong ben cao, no doubt. However, this points out to me directions in integrative med. Many of our prized herbs such as chai hu also work by outhrusting and scattering and are thus also damaging to the zheng qi in the longterm. this suggests to me that many meds may also have beneficial effects on relieving liver constraint and stagnation when used judiciously. dosage is a factor and combination with other substances that address the root imbalances. So perhaps inderal, which works better than tian wang bu xin dan for arythmia, could be used in a low dose with TWBXD to get the best of both worlds, the requisite symptom relief and address the yin vacuity. Most of the serious problems of meds are dose related and disappear at the lowest dosages. there is no reason why a formula like TWBXD wouldn't completely protect against yin damage from low dose inderal, just as it would protect against damage from chai hu. I agree that the mere coupling of chinese meds and drugs without careful consideration of these issues is folly, but to dismiss the value of properly used western meds is likewise (and I don't think z'ev is being dismissive in this way, just writing polemically at times as we all do, in order to make a point). The fact is that the chinese have used substances that are essentially drugs in this way for centuries, such as bing pian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2002 Report Share Posted January 26, 2002 What is interesting to me here is that while chai hu is known to be outthrusting and scattering, it is also listed as a superior medicinal in the Shen nong ben cao jing, i.e. without harmful effect and able to be used over a long period of time. It is also said to 'boost the essence'. Its qi is balanced and bitter. I wondered about it not be listed as a cold medicinal in this text. So I looked it up in the Zhong yao da ci dian where other varieties of chai hu, southern and japanese, are listed, both of them, if I remember correctly neutral, one of them actually sweet. So we see that there are different varieties of chai hu that can be used differently, and that we can use regular chai hu in the context of a specific combination and prescription to have a more supplementing effect. It, of course, raises spleen qi and clear yang, and here it is a question of combination and dosage (quite small, for example, in bu zhong yi qi tang). The example Todd gives, of inderol with tian wang bu xin dan, is, I believe, a hopeful possibility for the future. On Saturday, January 26, 2002, at 06:53 PM, 1 wrote: > Many of our prized herbs such as chai hu also work by > outhrusting and scattering and are thus also damaging to the zheng qi > in the longterm. this suggests to me that many meds may also have > beneficial effects on relieving liver constraint and stagnation when > used judiciously. dosage is a factor and combination with other > substances that address the root imbalances. So perhaps inderal, which > works better than tian wang bu xin dan for arythmia, could be used in a > low dose with TWBXD to get the best of both worlds, the requisite > symptom relief and address the yin vacuity. Most of the serious > problems of meds are dose related and disappear at the lowest dosages. > there is no reason why a formula like TWBXD wouldn't completely protect > against yin damage from low dose inderal, just as it would protect > against damage from chai hu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2002 Report Share Posted January 27, 2002 , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > What is interesting to me here is that while chai hu is known to be > outthrusting and scattering, it is also listed as a superior medicinal > in the Shen nong ben cao jing, i.e. without harmful effect and able to > be used over a long period of time. It is also said to 'boost the > essence'. Its qi is balanced and bitter. Yet, as it is noted in Bensky, later generations of physicians considered it to be damaging to the yin and that care should be taken in it's use. Which raises an interesting question that was posed to me by a first semester materia medica student of mine. How do we know that the species of a plant that is typically used today as a particular medicinal (chai hu, for example) is the same plant that was for the material at the time the SNBCJ was written. I do not believe the SNBCJ has descriptions of the plants and since many plants are represented by different species, sometimes even completely unrelated genuses, sometime with at least slight variations in effect, are we sure all premodern references to chai hu are to bupleurum chinense or even scorzoneraefolium. Most research abstracts list chinense. To exemplify this issue, Heiner Fruehauf has made the case that ren shen in the SHL may actually have been codonopsis and not ginseng. Sorry, the arcane details of his argument escape me at the moment. Chai hu also has different effects according to processing accorded to sionneau. While some people mainly attribute chai hu's uses according to does differences, sionneau points out that the dried unprocessed chai hu found in most pharmacies is mainly for shaoyang; it must be vinegar fried to address liver depression (I am pretty sure about this anyway; no book handy to check). Just because it lifts spleen yang does not qualify it to me as having something akin to supplementing properties. Only if it used with tonics. I feel like huang qi addresses the true root of yang sinking, vacuity, while chai hu merely has forceful upward effect on the qi; it doesn't actually add strength to the root. It may be classed as superior herb, but I have always been advised not to use it long term and to always take heed of it potential for yin damage. for this latter concern, the simultaneous prescription of bai shao appears to be adequate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2002 Report Share Posted January 27, 2002 there seems to be fear of criticizing biomedical practices >>>>>>Zév if memory serves me right biomedicine is the fourth largest cause of death. So there is lots to criticize. We should however use the same scrutiny with CM. Alon - Saturday, January 26, 2002 8:29 PM Re: Thorazine & CM Although I admit at times in the past my tone has been strident, I have been accused of being "anti-Western medicine" when I point out problems such as overmedication, iatrogenesis, and unnecessary procedures. So I have toned down my 'rhetoric'. Although I still see these problems happening, I also appreciate the strengths of biomedicine. I believe strongly in Hippocrates credo, "first do no harm", and it upsets me when I see it violated so easily, often without conscience. Many physicians I communicate with actually agree with my concerns. In a time when 'integrative medicine' has been the popular agenda . there seems to be fear of criticizing biomedical practices, when some of them are damaging and not in the best interest of patients. Constructive criticism could be very helpful in improving the overall character of medicine.On Friday, January 25, 2002, at 06:33 PM, ALON MARCUS wrote: I know it is not 'politically correct', but I do see countless problems with overmedication of patients, who are given liberally combinations of strong medicinals leading to strong side effects. I could write volumes on what I see in clinic every day. It is a problem, we do need to recognize it. Iatrogenesis is a lot of what we treat>>>Why not politically correct?AAlon- Sent: Friday, January 25, 2002 4:50 PMRe: Thorazine & CMI'm sorry, the last message was sent before it was finished.Let's try again.This is a very interesting topic to me, for a number of reasons.1) I have noticed this yin vacuity/vacuity heat related not only to thorazine, but to a number of medications, such as valium and klonopin, that are used in psychiatric medicine. I use tian wang bu xin dan quite often in these cases, along with such prescriptions as yi guan jian and zhi bai di huang wan, depending on pattern. They can be very helpful.I have one recent patient who was given valium on the thought that reducing his anxiety would help a chronic prostate problem. When I saw him, his tongue was shrivled, greasy yellow coat, bright red with sores, and his pulse was very rapid, hollow, and shaking. The mouth sores appeared after taking valium. He was also given cipro for his prostate previously, and used a steroidal inhaler for asthma. He had stopped using speed last summer as well.He was suffering from anxiety, restlessness and difficulty sleeping since returning from Israel, complained of jet lag as well.I diagnosed heart/kidney/liver yin vacuity with heart fire, and administered tian wang bu xin dan plus huang lian.2) I agree that medications such as inderal (and many others) work as a 'tour-de-force'. . . and that is part of the problem with many prescription medications. The mechanical 'forcing' of biomechanisms can easily lead to systemic chaos, leading to undesirable side effects and functional problems.I know it is not 'politically correct', but I do see countless problems with overmedication of patients, who are given liberally combinations of strong medicinals leading to strong side effects. I could write volumes on what I see in clinic every day. It is a problem, we do need to recognize it. Iatrogenesis is a lot of what we treat.I also recognize the grey areas (as in the above case) where people 'self-medicate' with recreational drugs, or that often many of these medications are necessary. But if multiple medicines are the 'wave of the future' in biomedicine, because of the complexity of modern diseases, application of Chinese polypharmacy principles may be very helpful in the near future.On Friday, January 25, 2002, at 07:41 AM, pemachophel2001 wrote:Yesterday I translated an article from #11, 2001 Xin Zhong Yi (New) about the treatment of sinus tachycardia as a sideeffect of chlorpromazine (Thorazine) by administering Tian Wang Bu XinDan (Heavenly Emperor Supplement the Heart Elixir). The author of thisarticle stated that the Thorazine had caused yin vacuity-vacuity heatin the 102 patients they saw. (They gave a list of the s & s theybelieved added up to this pattern discrimination, including tongue & pulse.) As it turned out, compared to propanolol (Inderal, a common beta-blocking antiarrhythmia med), the Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan did not doas good a job decreasing the sinus tachycardia, but it did do a muchbetter job at treating all the s & s of yin vacuity-vacuity heat. Inaddition, the Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan was without side effects.I think this article gives us a leg up on a possible CM description ofThorazine. This med is for the treatment of psychosis which, in CM,tends to get categorized as mania (kuang), and mania is mainly due toheat harassing the heart spirit, often complicated by phlegm.Commonly, this heat is located in the liver and stomach besides theheart. To me, that suggests it is commonly, at least in part,depressive heat. This is also my clinical observation.To me, this suggests that Thorazine achieves its sedative effect byupbearing and out-thrusting and, therefore, dispersing and scatteringthe heart spirit. If this is so, this would tally according to CMlogic with its observed effect of causing yin vacuity-vacuity heat.It also suggests that Inderal does not achieve its effect ofregulating the heart rhythm by enriching yin and clearing the heart.As the Chinese author states, heart palpitations and heart fluster aremostly due to heart yin vacuity with heat harassing the heart spiritcausing the spirit qi to stir chaotically. If Inderal does not achieveits intended therapeutic effect by enriching yin and clearing theheart, then how, in CM terms, does it? This suggests that, likeThorazine and so many other Western meds, Inderal works by a tour deforce as opposed to restoring harmony and balance. (By tour deforce, I mean doing something by force and technical leveragewhich is not done in an organic, normal, or natural way.) Having justdone some research on antiarrhythmia meds, it seems they are prone toadverse reactions.Any thoughts or comments?BTW, my translation of this article should be posted in the next fewdays at the Free Articles section of: www.chinesemedicalpsychiatry.comBobThe Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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