Guest guest Posted January 29, 2002 Report Share Posted January 29, 2002 Sorry, I did not attend. I plan on giving the lawsuits a few years to work themselves out before considering the use of injections. I do know the teacher and in general he always teaches out of two of his books from china, which of course have not been translated. bob --- dragon90405 <yulong wrote: > Bob, > > > , Bob Linde > <bob_and_robin> wrote: > > I just found the brochure for that course, it must > > explain why they have taught part one twice, They > are > > covering the basics (for $120) and will teach the > > actual hands on in part two once the guide lines > are > > established. > > Is there any citation of or reference to anything in > writing? > If there's anyone on the list who has done > the training, I'd like to see a rundown on > what is covered, particularly noting the > materials being used to train the > related knowledge and skills. > > Ken > > > > Great stuff seeking new owners in Auctions! http://auctions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2002 Report Share Posted January 29, 2002 Bob, Do you know anyone who has taken the class? I'd be very interested to know the titles and authors and other publication data if available of the books that are being used to teach the use of injectables. I'm sorry if I missed it earlier, but what school is this? Ken , Bob Linde <bob_and_robin> wrote: > Sorry, I did not attend. I plan on giving the lawsuits > a few years to work themselves out before considering > the use of injections. I do know the teacher and in > general he always teaches out of two of his books from > china, which of course have not been translated. > bob > > --- dragon90405 <yulong@m...> wrote: > > Bob, > > > > > > , Bob Linde > > <bob_and_robin> wrote: > > > I just found the brochure for that course, it must > > > explain why they have taught part one twice, They > > are > > > covering the basics (for $120) and will teach the > > > actual hands on in part two once the guide lines > > are > > > established. > > > > Is there any citation of or reference to anything in > > writing? > > If there's anyone on the list who has done > > the training, I'd like to see a rundown on > > what is covered, particularly noting the > > materials being used to train the > > related knowledge and skills. > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > > > > > > Great stuff seeking new owners in Auctions! > http://auctions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2002 Report Share Posted January 29, 2002 Will, Are you aware of what literature is being used as the basis of instruction in either location or what was used to support the process that took place in Florida that resulted in inclusion of injectables in the scope of practice there? Ken , WMorris116@A... wrote: > A few schools are doing it in FL and it is being done in New Mexico. Richard > Freiberg is conducting one of the FL trainings. > > Will > > In a message dated 1/29/02 6:39:22 AM Pacific Standard Time, > yulong@m... writes: > > > > Do you know anyone who has taken the > > class? I'd be very interested to > > know the titles and authors and > > other publication data if available > > of the books that are being used > > to teach the use of injectables. > > > > I'm sorry if I missed it earlier, but > > what school is this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2002 Report Share Posted January 29, 2002 The school is FITCM in St Pete florida, I spoke with the instructor this morning and he told me he uses chinese reference books and that there was nothing of note that he was aware of in english. I have not talked with anyone who has taken the seminar, but in general he is an excellent teacher and has excellent english language skills. His name is Dr. Er Li Bob --- dragon90405 <yulong wrote: > Bob, > > Do you know anyone who has taken the > class? I'd be very interested to > know the titles and authors and > other publication data if available > of the books that are being used > to teach the use of injectables. > > I'm sorry if I missed it earlier, but > what school is this? > > Ken > > , Bob Linde > <bob_and_robin> wrote: > > Sorry, I did not attend. I plan on giving the > lawsuits > > a few years to work themselves out before > considering > > the use of injections. I do know the teacher and > in > > general he always teaches out of two of his books > from > > china, which of course have not been translated. > > bob > > > > --- dragon90405 <yulong@m...> wrote: > > > Bob, > > > > > > > > > , Bob Linde > > > <bob_and_robin> wrote: > > > > I just found the brochure for that course, it > must > > > > explain why they have taught part one twice, > They > > > are > > > > covering the basics (for $120) and will teach > the > > > > actual hands on in part two once the guide > lines > > > are > > > > established. > > > > > > Is there any citation of or reference to > anything in > > > writing? > > > If there's anyone on the list who has done > > > the training, I'd like to see a rundown on > > > what is covered, particularly noting the > > > materials being used to train the > > > related knowledge and skills. > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Great stuff seeking new owners in Auctions! > > > http://auctions. > > Great stuff seeking new owners in Auctions! http://auctions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2002 Report Share Posted January 29, 2002 I don't know which texts they are using, but are most likely the Chinese Language texts that they used in the Chinese TCM Schools. They are usually earth toned paperback texts about a half to three quarters of an inch thick and generally on a single topic. Our Professors at FITCM used to refer to them frequently in many of the classes. Many (most) of these texts are not available in English, which is one of the benefits of studying Chinese as a language, but I begin to cross threads. Having talked with them about the use of injectable herbs in China, it seemed a pity that we were not able to make use of them here as they are the superior modality in many severe cases. I know that they discussed not only single herbs, but also classic formulations that were manufactured in China for the sole use as injectables in the hospitals (very clean and pure). At the time, FITCM did not offer the course so my knowledge is simply from private and class discussions with our Professors, however I am not surprised that Dr Ku would offer it as soon as the law was passed in Florida. It is nice to see that he is still at the forefront of teaching TCM in this country. At least there are a couple of states that are beginning to expand our modality base to allow for more 'modern' techniques, which we would be expected to be familiar with as TCM Drs in China. I fear that we will all be long retired before our scope of practice in this country begins to broaden to this level nationally. I wish all of the Practitioners in Florida & New Mexico the very best, but the AMA will likely continue the fight to prevent as many other states from doing injections as possible, on the grounds that only they are qualified to use hypodermic needles, while they make it possible for themselves to do " Medical " Acupuncture with as few as 50, and in a few states NO hours of actual training. The U.S. has a long way to go to be able to bring the full scope of TCM to the public, and we all benefit by your actions. Out of curiosity, does the Florida law also allow a TCM Physician qualified for point injection therapy to draw blood for labwork, or must the patient be sent to another clinic? Mel Krueger, L.Ac. M & M's TCM Clinic Flagstaff, AZ ninjadrs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2002 Report Share Posted January 29, 2002 Hi; I attend the National College of Oriental Medicine in Orlando. They are having a series of classes for the Acupoint Injection Therapy. I have taken the first class in the series of six. Anyone interested in a brochure can call Vin Miskel at 407-888-8689. I am trying to get the hand outs that were used in this first session on disk. If I can get them I will post to this list. They went over the points and herbs and amounts to be used in this first session. Hope this is a help. Susan Arnold - dragon90405 Tuesday, January 29, 2002 9:59 AM Re: Herbal Injectables in FL? Will,Are you aware of what literature is beingused as the basis of instruction in eitherlocation or what was used to support the process that took place in Florida that resulted in inclusion of injectables in the scope of practice there?Ken, WMorris116@A... wrote:> A few schools are doing it in FL and it is being done in New Mexico. Richard > Freiberg is conducting one of the FL trainings.> > Will> > In a message dated 1/29/02 6:39:22 AM Pacific Standard Time, > yulong@m... writes:> > > > Do you know anyone who has taken the> > class? I'd be very interested to> > know the titles and authors and> > other publication data if available> > of the books that are being used> > to teach the use of injectables.> > > > I'm sorry if I missed it earlier, but> > what school is this?Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2002 Report Share Posted January 30, 2002 Yes to your answer on the blood draw. We have had training for that at NCOM in Orlando. Susan Arnold - Mel Krueger Tuesday, January 29, 2002 7:13 PM Re: Re: Herbal Injectables in FL? I don't know which texts they are using, but are most likely the ChineseLanguage texts that they used in the Chinese TCM Schools. They are usuallyearth toned paperback texts about a half to three quarters of an inch thickand generally on a single topic. Our Professors at FITCM used to refer tothem frequently in many of the classes. Many (most) of these texts are notavailable in English, which is one of the benefits of studying Chinese as alanguage, but I begin to cross threads. Having talked with them about theuse of injectable herbs in China, it seemed a pity that we were not able tomake use of them here as they are the superior modality in many severecases. I know that they discussed not only single herbs, but also classicformulations that were manufactured in China for the sole use as injectablesin the hospitals (very clean and pure). At the time, FITCM did not offerthe course so my knowledge is simply from private and class discussions withour Professors, however I am not surprised that Dr Ku would offer it as soonas the law was passed in Florida. It is nice to see that he is still at theforefront of teaching TCM in this country. At least there are a couple ofstates that are beginning to expand our modality base to allow for more'modern' techniques, which we would be expected to be familiar with as TCMDrs in China. I fear that we will all be long retired before our scope ofpractice in this country begins to broaden to this level nationally.I wish all of the Practitioners in Florida & New Mexico the very best, butthe AMA will likely continue the fight to prevent as many other states fromdoing injections as possible, on the grounds that only they are qualified touse hypodermic needles, while they make it possible for themselves to do"Medical" Acupuncture with as few as 50, and in a few states NO hours ofactual training. The U.S. has a long way to go to be able to bring the fullscope of TCM to the public, and we all benefit by your actions.Out of curiosity, does the Florida law also allow a TCM Physician qualifiedfor point injection therapy to draw blood for labwork, or must the patientbe sent to another clinic?Mel Krueger, L.Ac.M & M's TCM ClinicFlagstaff, AZninjadrsThe Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2002 Report Share Posted January 30, 2002 > I don't know which texts they are using, but are most likely the Chinese > Language texts that they used in the Chinese TCM Schools. Depending on when they went to school as well as where, these could be any of a number of different versions, editions, etc. of an ongoing series of basic teaching texts that are approved by the authorities in China for use in the approved institutions. They are usually > earth toned paperback texts about a half to three quarters of an inch thick > and generally on a single topic. They come in all different colors. In fact most of the editions I've seen in both Chengdu and Beijing are green...if we're talking about the same books. Our Professors at FITCM used to refer to > them frequently in many of the classes. Many (most) of these texts are not > available in English, which is one of the benefits of studying Chinese as a > language, but I begin to cross threads. Perish the thought. But it's pertinent here as it begins to seem like if you are a Florida legislator knowledge of Chinese must now be required. Does anyone know of any English language materials that were seen or referred to or spoken about during the process by which this action in Florida was effected? Were Chinese language materials presented to support the inclusion of injectables? If so, were they translated? Having talked with them about the > use of injectable herbs in China, it seemed a pity that we were not able to > make use of them here as they are the superior modality in many severe > cases. I know that they discussed not only single herbs, but also classic > formulations that were manufactured in China for the sole use as injectables > in the hospitals (very clean and pure). At the time, FITCM did not offer > the course so my knowledge is simply from private and class discussions with > our Professors, however I am not surprised that Dr Ku would offer it as soon > as the law was passed in Florida. It is nice to see that he is still at the > forefront of teaching TCM in this country. At least there are a couple of > states that are beginning to expand our modality base to allow for more > 'modern' techniques, which we would be expected to be familiar with as TCM > Drs in China. I fear that we will all be long retired before our scope of > practice in this country begins to broaden to this level nationally. What interests me about this is the process by which a modality is included in the scope of practice. It's an extension of the concern about issues of education, qualification, and standards. It seems to me that there are two closely related issues: one is the existence and recognition of a potentially effective technique; the other is the process by which it is included within and therefore broadens the scope of practice. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2002 Report Share Posted January 30, 2002 Do you have a DEA number in Fl? Alon - Mel Krueger Tuesday, January 29, 2002 4:13 PM Re: Re: Herbal Injectables in FL? I don't know which texts they are using, but are most likely the ChineseLanguage texts that they used in the Chinese TCM Schools. They are usuallyearth toned paperback texts about a half to three quarters of an inch thickand generally on a single topic. Our Professors at FITCM used to refer tothem frequently in many of the classes. Many (most) of these texts are notavailable in English, which is one of the benefits of studying Chinese as alanguage, but I begin to cross threads. Having talked with them about theuse of injectable herbs in China, it seemed a pity that we were not able tomake use of them here as they are the superior modality in many severecases. I know that they discussed not only single herbs, but also classicformulations that were manufactured in China for the sole use as injectablesin the hospitals (very clean and pure). At the time, FITCM did not offerthe course so my knowledge is simply from private and class discussions withour Professors, however I am not surprised that Dr Ku would offer it as soonas the law was passed in Florida. It is nice to see that he is still at theforefront of teaching TCM in this country. At least there are a couple ofstates that are beginning to expand our modality base to allow for more'modern' techniques, which we would be expected to be familiar with as TCMDrs in China. I fear that we will all be long retired before our scope ofpractice in this country begins to broaden to this level nationally.I wish all of the Practitioners in Florida & New Mexico the very best, butthe AMA will likely continue the fight to prevent as many other states fromdoing injections as possible, on the grounds that only they are qualified touse hypodermic needles, while they make it possible for themselves to do"Medical" Acupuncture with as few as 50, and in a few states NO hours ofactual training. The U.S. has a long way to go to be able to bring the fullscope of TCM to the public, and we all benefit by your actions.Out of curiosity, does the Florida law also allow a TCM Physician qualifiedfor point injection therapy to draw blood for labwork, or must the patientbe sent to another clinic?Mel Krueger, L.Ac.M & M's TCM ClinicFlagstaff, AZninjadrsThe Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2002 Report Share Posted January 30, 2002 , " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > Do you have a DEA number in Fl? > Alon I also thought injections were typically carried out in China in hospitals or clinics equipped with emergency facilities in case of anaphylaxis. Is there a requirement for such in FL? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2002 Report Share Posted January 30, 2002 I also thought injections were typically carried out in China in hospitals or clinics equipped with emergency facilities in case of anaphylaxis. Is there a requirement for such in FL? >>>>I would defiantly require ACLS Alon - 1 Wednesday, January 30, 2002 9:22 AM Re: Herbal Injectables in FL? , "ALON MARCUS" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> Do you have a DEA number in Fl?> AlonI also thought injections were typically carried out in China in hospitals or clinics equipped with emergency facilities in case of anaphylaxis. Is there a requirement for such in FL?ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2002 Report Share Posted January 30, 2002 , " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > >>>>I would defiantly require ACLS > Alon what exactly does ACLS mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2002 Report Share Posted January 30, 2002 Al: What was the success rate with injectibles and Bell's Palsy? Jim Ramholz , Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote: > No references to the legalities, but the medical practice yes. > > Let's see... 'The Treatment of 100 Common Diseases by New Acupuncture " > (Medicine & Health Publishing Co. The prices on the book cover indicate > that it was intended for sale in Hong Kong.) makes mention of > injectables. Plus I saw them used frequently in China. Specifically in > the Bell's Palsy clinic. They injected Dang Gui and vitamin B-12 into GB > 20. > > Also, when I got sick in China, I got an injection into my hip of Chai > Hu. I was 90% better inside of an hour. fever came down, nausea went > away, dizziness and other indications quickly abated. I love that stuff. > > > dragon90405 wrote: > > > > Al, > > > > > Yeah, really. > > > > > > Let's clone that initiative! > > > > Do you have references or other sources > > on this subject? > > > > Ken > > > > > > dragon90405 wrote: > > > > > > > > Fernando, > > > > > > > > I presume that the inclusion of injectables > > > > in the scope of practice in Florida was the > > > > result of some sort of lobbying, filing of > > > > documents, etc. > > > > > > > > Do you know who was moving the initiative > > > > forward? > > > > > > > > Is there a filing available for public > > > > review that includes citations to relevant > > > > sources in the literature? > > > > > > -- > > > Al Stone L.Ac. > > > <AlStone@B...> > > > http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com > > > > > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2002 Report Share Posted January 30, 2002 Todd ACLS is Advance cardio life support Injecting anything can result in life threating reactions. One must have Pharmaceutical Meds available on hand. Alon - 1 Wednesday, January 30, 2002 9:34 AM Re: Herbal Injectables in FL? , "ALON MARCUS" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> >>>>I would defiantly require ACLS > Alonwhat exactly does ACLS mean?ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2002 Report Share Posted January 30, 2002 West Virginia's scope of practice includes " point puncture-the use of sterile materia medica injected into the acupuncture point for physiologic or energetic therapy when used in accordance with traditional or modern oriental medical theory. " Anyone on the list from there? Sherril Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2002 Report Share Posted January 30, 2002 I really couldn't say. Most people got injected, all got acupuncture. I don't know how to rate success either. Everybody that I can think of showed improvement... -al. jramholz wrote: > > Al: > > What was the success rate with injectibles and Bell's Palsy? > > Jim Ramholz > > , Al Stone <alstone@b...> wrote: > > No references to the legalities, but the medical practice yes. > > > > Let's see... 'The Treatment of 100 Common Diseases by New > Acupuncture " > > (Medicine & Health Publishing Co. The prices on the book cover > indicate > > that it was intended for sale in Hong Kong.) makes mention of > > injectables. Plus I saw them used frequently in China. > Specifically in > > the Bell's Palsy clinic. They injected Dang Gui and vitamin B-12 > into GB > > 20. > > > > Also, when I got sick in China, I got an injection into my hip of > Chai > > Hu. I was 90% better inside of an hour. fever came down, nausea > went > > away, dizziness and other indications quickly abated. I love that > stuff. > > > > > > dragon90405 wrote: > > > > > > Al, > > > > > > > Yeah, really. > > > > > > > > Let's clone that initiative! > > > > > > Do you have references or other sources > > > on this subject? > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > dragon90405 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Fernando, > > > > > > > > > > I presume that the inclusion of injectables > > > > > in the scope of practice in Florida was the > > > > > result of some sort of lobbying, filing of > > > > > documents, etc. > > > > > > > > > > Do you know who was moving the initiative > > > > > forward? > > > > > > > > > > Is there a filing available for public > > > > > review that includes citations to relevant > > > > > sources in the literature? > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Al Stone L.Ac. > > > > <AlStone@B...> > > > > http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com > > > > > > > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a > variety of professional services, including board approved online > continuing education. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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