doctorate gossip

[Guest guest]

What will be the requirements for someone to sit for the doctorate test? Will new graduates "outrank" Asian and older Western practitioners who don't want to sit for another test?>>>Why do you think a peace of paper will make anybody outrank any one. I have a DOM paper and it means nothing because there is no real Dr program. And having the schools create one will not change this until the schools are not regionally accredited and recognized by the major university system. Also in real life I don't think a title makes any difference

Alon

 

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jramholz

Sunday, February 03, 2002 1:05 AM

Re: doctorate gossip:While your argument is somewhat persuasive, there are still a number of questions unanswered.What will be the requirements for someone to sit for the doctorate test? Will new graduates "outrank" Asian and older Western practitioners who don't want to sit for another test?Will the "doctors from China" be required to pass the exam, too? Or do they deserve a presumption of competence that most older Western practitioners do not enjoy? What about doctors from Korean, Vietman, and Japan---do they have equivalent standing to the Chinese?Jim RamholzP.S. Can you post the syllabus for PCOM's classes that conver the classics?, "1" <@i...> wrote:> If there is to be a doctoral level competency exam and those who re > out in practice can pass it, give them the title. If you are unable to > show competency in whatever is decided to constitute octoral level > training, it makes no sense to get the title. If you have been waving > a crystal over someone for 20 years, why should you get a doctorate > that is for those who have studied the classics, chinese language and > learned to do research? I am all for equivalency testing, but time in > practice does not equal equivalency. I know plenty who could pass such > and exam and plenty who couldn't. BTW, it will probably not be > american old-timers who teach at the doctoral level. It will probably > be doctors from china. And as I said, I would be well served > personally by automatic grandfathering, but I do not think the public > would be.> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

, " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> What will be the requirements for someone to sit for the doctorate

> test?

 

As it stands, it appears that doing the Dr. program will be the only

way for americans. I think asians will be able to document equivalent

education. I personally think there should be a grandfathering exam.

That would be fair to all and do the best service to the public. BTW,

I was recently informed several things about grandfathering.

 

1. pharmacists were required to do advanced coursework in order to be

grandfathered

 

2. lawyers got the JD, but the educational curriculum was not changed,

just the title.

 

So if the case can be made that 2000 hour programs from the eighties

justify the doctorate and that we will grant all future doctorates to

those who complete 2000 hour programs, then that compares to the JD

situation. No one is making that case. What is being asked by pro

organizations is:

 

1. that entry level in the field should be the doctorate with 3900

hours (I have no argument with this, except the hours may be too low)

 

2. longtime px should be grandfathered with no coursework or exam

 

I believe this is unprecedented and request evidence to the contrary

from the past 20 years.

 

the case against this as espoused by NCCAOM is that entry level should

only be changed if there is a safety issue and there is not one.

Licensing guarantees public safety, not clinical mastery.

 

BTW, NCCAOM is working very hard to get rid of the CA exam and replace

it with their own. They claim the CA exam prevents many competent px

from getting licensed. On the other hand, to play devil's advocate,

passing the NCCAOM exam can be done by most students after 2 years of

school. It is a pretty lightweight exam. But apparently, NCCAOM dipl.

ac. have a much better record of safety and ethics than CA licensees.

 

 

 

 

Will new graduates " outrank " Asian and older Western

> practitioners who don't want to sit for another test?

>

> >>>Why do you think a peace of paper will make anybody outrank any one.

 

They may end up outranking L.Ac. in the eyes of hospital admin and

insurance companies

 

Also in real life I don't think a title makes any difference

 

I don't think it should make a difference, but the majority of

americans have more faith in their MD to advise them about acupuncture

and alternative med than they do in us. I think this may have

something to do with title.

 

with regard to the issue of a " disjointed " profession (some doctors,

some not), two things come to mind

 

1. western med has several tiers of primary care (PA,LNP and MD)

 

2. while CA may go the grandfathering route, most other states are not

even considering the issue. so even if we agree to some way to achieve

parity of title in CA, there will still be a disjoint nationwide.

 

[Guest guest]

But apparently, NCCAOM dipl. ac. have a much better record of safety and ethics than CA licensees.>>>Were is this coming from. We have so little info how can anyone make these statements

Alon

 

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1

Sunday, February 03, 2002 12:38 PM

Re: doctorate gossip

, "Alon Marcus" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> What will be the requirements for someone to sit for the doctorate > test?As it stands, it appears that doing the Dr. program will be the only way for americans. I think asians will be able to document equivalent education. I personally think there should be a grandfathering exam. That would be fair to all and do the best service to the public. BTW, I was recently informed several things about grandfathering.1. pharmacists were required to do advanced coursework in order to be grandfathered2. lawyers got the JD, but the educational curriculum was not changed, just the title.So if the case can be made that 2000 hour programs from the eighties justify the doctorate and that we will grant all future doctorates to those who complete 2000 hour programs, then that compares to the JD situation. No one is making that case. What is being asked by pro organizations is:1. that entry level in the field should be the doctorate with 3900 hours (I have no argument with this, except the hours may be too low)2. longtime px should be grandfathered with no coursework or examI believe this is unprecedented and request evidence to the contrary from the past 20 years.the case against this as espoused by NCCAOM is that entry level should only be changed if there is a safety issue and there is not one. Licensing guarantees public safety, not clinical mastery.BTW, NCCAOM is working very hard to get rid of the CA exam and replace it with their own. They claim the CA exam prevents many competent px from getting licensed. On the other hand, to play devil's advocate, passing the NCCAOM exam can be done by most students after 2 years of school. It is a pretty lightweight exam. But apparently, NCCAOM dipl. ac. have a much better record of safety and ethics than CA licensees. Will new graduates "outrank" Asian and older Western > practitioners who don't want to sit for another test?> > >>>Why do you think a peace of paper will make anybody outrank any one. They may end up outranking L.Ac. in the eyes of hospital admin and insurance companiesAlso in real life I don't think a title makes any differenceI don't think it should make a difference, but the majority of americans have more faith in their MD to advise them about acupuncture and alternative med than they do in us. I think this may have something to do with title.with regard to the issue of a "disjointed" profession (some doctors, some not), two things come to mind1. western med has several tiers of primary care (PA,LNP and MD)2. while CA may go the grandfathering route, most other states are not even considering the issue. so even if we agree to some way to achieve parity of title in CA, there will still be a disjoint nationwide.ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

I don't think it should make a difference, but the majority of americans have more faith in their MD to advise them about acupuncture and alternative med than they do in us. I think this may have something to do with title.>>>That is my point it is not their title but their general education. What we need is a real Dr program that follows community standards not just the acup community

Alon

 

 

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1

Sunday, February 03, 2002 12:38 PM

Re: doctorate gossip

, "Alon Marcus" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> What will be the requirements for someone to sit for the doctorate > test?As it stands, it appears that doing the Dr. program will be the only way for americans. I think asians will be able to document equivalent education. I personally think there should be a grandfathering exam. That would be fair to all and do the best service to the public. BTW, I was recently informed several things about grandfathering.1. pharmacists were required to do advanced coursework in order to be grandfathered2. lawyers got the JD, but the educational curriculum was not changed, just the title.So if the case can be made that 2000 hour programs from the eighties justify the doctorate and that we will grant all future doctorates to those who complete 2000 hour programs, then that compares to the JD situation. No one is making that case. What is being asked by pro organizations is:1. that entry level in the field should be the doctorate with 3900 hours (I have no argument with this, except the hours may be too low)2. longtime px should be grandfathered with no coursework or examI believe this is unprecedented and request evidence to the contrary from the past 20 years.the case against this as espoused by NCCAOM is that entry level should only be changed if there is a safety issue and there is not one. Licensing guarantees public safety, not clinical mastery.BTW, NCCAOM is working very hard to get rid of the CA exam and replace it with their own. They claim the CA exam prevents many competent px from getting licensed. On the other hand, to play devil's advocate, passing the NCCAOM exam can be done by most students after 2 years of school. It is a pretty lightweight exam. But apparently, NCCAOM dipl. ac. have a much better record of safety and ethics than CA licensees. Will new graduates "outrank" Asian and older Western > practitioners who don't want to sit for another test?> > >>>Why do you think a peace of paper will make anybody outrank any one. They may end up outranking L.Ac. in the eyes of hospital admin and insurance companiesAlso in real life I don't think a title makes any differenceI don't think it should make a difference, but the majority of americans have more faith in their MD to advise them about acupuncture and alternative med than they do in us. I think this may have something to do with title.with regard to the issue of a "disjointed" profession (some doctors, some not), two things come to mind1. western med has several tiers of primary care (PA,LNP and MD)2. while CA may go the grandfathering route, most other states are not even considering the issue. so even if we agree to some way to achieve parity of title in CA, there will still be a disjoint nationwide.ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

while CA may go the grandfathering route, most other states are not even considering the issue. so even if we agree to some way to achieve parity of title in CA, there will still be a disjoint nationwide.>>>Todd like they say as Ca goes so does the rast of the nation, at least eventually

alon

 

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1

Sunday, February 03, 2002 12:38 PM

Re: doctorate gossip

, "Alon Marcus" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> What will be the requirements for someone to sit for the doctorate > test?As it stands, it appears that doing the Dr. program will be the only way for americans. I think asians will be able to document equivalent education. I personally think there should be a grandfathering exam. That would be fair to all and do the best service to the public. BTW, I was recently informed several things about grandfathering.1. pharmacists were required to do advanced coursework in order to be grandfathered2. lawyers got the JD, but the educational curriculum was not changed, just the title.So if the case can be made that 2000 hour programs from the eighties justify the doctorate and that we will grant all future doctorates to those who complete 2000 hour programs, then that compares to the JD situation. No one is making that case. What is being asked by pro organizations is:1. that entry level in the field should be the doctorate with 3900 hours (I have no argument with this, except the hours may be too low)2. longtime px should be grandfathered with no coursework or examI believe this is unprecedented and request evidence to the contrary from the past 20 years.the case against this as espoused by NCCAOM is that entry level should only be changed if there is a safety issue and there is not one. Licensing guarantees public safety, not clinical mastery.BTW, NCCAOM is working very hard to get rid of the CA exam and replace it with their own. They claim the CA exam prevents many competent px from getting licensed. On the other hand, to play devil's advocate, passing the NCCAOM exam can be done by most students after 2 years of school. It is a pretty lightweight exam. But apparently, NCCAOM dipl. ac. have a much better record of safety and ethics than CA licensees. Will new graduates "outrank" Asian and older Western > practitioners who don't want to sit for another test?> > >>>Why do you think a peace of paper will make anybody outrank any one. They may end up outranking L.Ac. in the eyes of hospital admin and insurance companiesAlso in real life I don't think a title makes any differenceI don't think it should make a difference, but the majority of americans have more faith in their MD to advise them about acupuncture and alternative med than they do in us. I think this may have something to do with title.with regard to the issue of a "disjointed" profession (some doctors, some not), two things come to mind1. western med has several tiers of primary care (PA,LNP and MD)2. while CA may go the grandfathering route, most other states are not even considering the issue. so even if we agree to some way to achieve parity of title in CA, there will still be a disjoint nationwide.ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

, " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote:

 

 

>

> Will the " doctors from China " be required to pass the exam, too?

 

I think they should, just like foreign MD's need to do the FME. Merely

having the sheepskin does not mean you know anything. We have no way

of evaluating the integrity of asian programs, so minimum competency

and safety should still be demonstrated.

 

Or

> do they deserve a presumption of competence that most older Western

> practitioners do not enjoy?

 

not in my opinion, but I think it likely that they will enjoy this

presumption in CA, s they always have. The NCCAOM is very upset that

asians get automatic approval in CA and those who went to ACAOM schools

outside CA do not.

 

What about doctors from Korean, Vietman,

> and Japan---do they have equivalent standing to the Chinese?

 

test 'em. test everybody. a test is the fairest way to demonstrate

knowledge. it is a level playing field. just because you went to a CA

program does not make you better or worse than those went to school in

Asia or in another state. If you can pass the current CA exam, you

should get a license. I know one CA approved college from out of state

that has a 42% pass rate on the CA exam over the past 7 years. So even

though their curriculum meets the CA standards, their students keep

bombing the exam. Asian px have about a 57% pass rate. PCOM, ACTCM

and several others from CA have pass rates in the mid to high eighties

over a 12 year period. This is perhaps somewhat due to the CA schools

teaching to the test. Just let everyone take the test. The issue of

low pass rates is question in and of itself, but one thing certainly

stands out. The CA exam is pretty heavy with herb questions. Schools

that put heavy emphasis on herbology seem to do well. Maybe other

schools should get their herb programs up to par. Finally, NCCAOM

clearly has a vested interest in replacing the CA exam with their own.

For those waiting for this change with bated breath, be assured that if

CA goes this route, you are going to have to pass the NCCAOM herb exam,

too. there is no way that just the acu exam will ever qualify for

licensure here.

 

>

> Jim Ramholz

>

> P.S. Can you post the syllabus for PCOM's classes that conver the

> classics?

 

I do not think it is a public document, but I do know there are two

years of classical and language study planned (i.e. one class in each

every semester)

 

I did hear something interesting from one PCOM professor who reads

chinese for over ten years. Even though PCOM's program is addressing

the language issue, this man stated at a public meeting that even five

semesters of chinese for 2 hours per week will not accomplish the goal

of being able to read modern chinese medical journals. so the question

is begged, ....

 

[Guest guest]

, " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

 

Were is this coming from. We have so little info how can anyone make

these statements

 

It comes from public records on discipline in CA versus nationwide.

Contact NCCAOM for details.

>

[Guest guest]

At 6:38 PM +0000 2/3/02, 1 wrote:

>the case against this as espoused by NCCAOM is that entry level should

>only be changed if there is a safety issue and there is not one.

>Licensing guarantees public safety, not clinical mastery.

--

NCCAOM is not a licensing agency, and I'd say has a vested interest

in the multiplication factor times exam fees they charge...

 

>

>BTW, NCCAOM is working very hard to get rid of the CA exam and replace

>it with their own.

--

....and that the multiplication factor represented by California is

very attractive to them. Added to which, as California requires

competency in herbal medicine, they stand to gain an enormous

windfall in terms of fees for their overpriced herbal exam.

 

>They claim the CA exam prevents many competent px

>from getting licensed.

--

An obviously bogus argument (NCCAOM's, not your's). First, anyone who

takes the NCCAOM exam can practice many other places in the US.

Second, it isn't only a matter of passing a licensing exam which

qualifies a person to get a license: All the major states that I know

of as using the NCCAOM test have additional educational requirements

that go beyond the NCCAOM's idea of minimum safety standards.

 

> On the other hand, to play devil's advocate,

>passing the NCCAOM exam can be done by most students after 2 years of

>school. It is a pretty lightweight exam. But apparently, NCCAOM dipl.

>ac. have a much better record of safety and ethics than CA licensees.

--

I would really love to see what this PR claim is based on. A great

many California licensees have the NCCA diploma -- has that been

taken into account? Has a proper peer comparison been made to exclude

variables such as length of time in practice, scope of practice and

other differences in various states and locations?

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

At 7:06 PM +0000 2/3/02, 1 wrote:

>It comes from public records on discipline in CA versus nationwide.

>Contact NCCAOM for details.

--

If that is the criteria, then it is a misleading claim. Each state

has different standards for what will end up in the disciplinary

lists.

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

> --

> I would really love to see what this PR claim is based on. A great

> many California licensees have the NCCA diploma -- has that been

> taken into account? Has a proper peer comparison been made to exclude

> variables such as length of time in practice, scope of practice and

> other differences in various states and locations?

>

> Rory

 

I guess I am curious, too. It was stated in the newsletter they mailed

out last month. Believe me, I think they have major vested interests

at stake here. BTW, are they a private profitmaking corp? does anyone

know?

> --

[Guest guest]

, Rory Kerr <rorykerr@w...> wrote:

> At 7:06 PM +0000 2/3/02, 1 wrote:

> >It comes from public records on discipline in CA versus nationwide.

> >Contact NCCAOM for details.

> --

> If that is the criteria, then it is a misleading claim. Each state

> has different standards for what will end up in the disciplinary

> lists.

>

> Rory

 

godo point. you should write them a rebuttal. I wonder if they will

print it.

> --

[Guest guest]

, " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...>

<< Why do you think a peace of paper will make anybody outrank any

one. I have a DOM paper and it means nothing because there is no

real Dr program. And having the schools create one will not change

this until the schools are not regionally accredited and recognized

by the major university system. Also in real life I don't think a

title makes any difference >>

 

 

 

Alon:

 

A title certainly does make a great deal of difference. For example,

if you have an MD license you don't really need any expertise in

order to get patients and insurance coverage for acupuncture. What's

a few hundred hours compared to 4000? If you don't have NCCAOM

diplomate, you can't practice acupuncture in Colorado. Insurance

companies require, in part, a title for you to receive

reimbursements. I suspect having a title could either make or break

you as an expert witness in court. The general public will not

usually take you at your word.

 

Having a doctorate, in the public's mind, assumes that a level of

expertise is involved. How many people accept an MD's opinion over

anyone else's---even a R.Ac. [Real Acupuncturist].

 

I suspect having varied and tiered titles in CM will create more

confusion and difficulties than benefits at this early stage of our

historical development. And, it will not accurately represent the

profession until the oldsters die off and the homogenized

whippersnappers take over.

 

It reminds me of a story Jeremy Ross told us [i hope I repeat it

accurately]. He wanted to get an NCCAOM diplomate to practice in the

US, but the schools in England don't keep records the way our

schools do so his education was difficult to verify. It took him a

long while before he finally got the diplomate---even though his own

book was always on the recommended list for the NCCAOM test!

 

Having the NCCAOM didn't improve his expertise but did change the

way he could practice. A new doctorate, while acknowledging a level

of formal education, says more about how we will be able to practice

than what we actually know.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

It comes from public records on discipline in CA versus nationwide. Contact NCCAOM for details.>>>That may be due to level of state overview and size.

Alon

 

-

1

Sunday, February 03, 2002 1:06 PM

Re: doctorate gossip

, "Alon Marcus" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:Were is this coming from. We have so little info how can anyone make these statementsIt comes from public records on discipline in CA versus nationwide. Contact NCCAOM for details.Todd> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

An obviously bogus argument (NCCAOM's, not your's). First, anyone who takes the NCCAOM exam can practice many other places in the US. >>>>Well in truth one does not need a license to practice "herbalogy"

Alon

 

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Rory Kerr

Sunday, February 03, 2002 4:13 PM

Re: doctorate gossip

At 6:38 PM +0000 2/3/02, 1 wrote:>the case against this as espoused by NCCAOM is that entry level should>only be changed if there is a safety issue and there is not one.>Licensing guarantees public safety, not clinical mastery.--NCCAOM is not a licensing agency, and I'd say has a vested interest in the multiplication factor times exam fees they charge...>>BTW, NCCAOM is working very hard to get rid of the CA exam and replace>it with their own.--...and that the multiplication factor represented by California is very attractive to them. Added to which, as California requires competency in herbal medicine, they stand to gain an enormous windfall in terms of fees for their overpriced herbal exam.>They claim the CA exam prevents many competent px>from getting licensed.--An obviously bogus argument (NCCAOM's, not your's). First, anyone who takes the NCCAOM exam can practice many other places in the US. Second, it isn't only a matter of passing a licensing exam which qualifies a person to get a license: All the major states that I know of as using the NCCAOM test have additional educational requirements that go beyond the NCCAOM's idea of minimum safety standards.> On the other hand, to play devil's advocate,>passing the NCCAOM exam can be done by most students after 2 years of>school. It is a pretty lightweight exam. But apparently, NCCAOM dipl.>ac. have a much better record of safety and ethics than CA licensees.--I would really love to see what this PR claim is based on. A great many California licensees have the NCCA diploma -- has that been taken into account? Has a proper peer comparison been made to exclude variables such as length of time in practice, scope of practice and other differences in various states and locations?Rory-- Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

 

- I would really love to see what this PR claim is based on. A great many California licensees have the NCCA diploma -- has that been taken into account? Has a proper peer comparison been made to exclude variables such as length of time in practice, scope of practice and other differences in various states and locations?

>>>>I am sure it was not first because we pobably do not have the info

Alon

 

Rory Kerr

Sunday, February 03, 2002 4:13 PM

Re: doctorate gossip

At 6:38 PM +0000 2/3/02, 1 wrote:>the case against this as espoused by NCCAOM is that entry level should>only be changed if there is a safety issue and there is not one.>Licensing guarantees public safety, not clinical mastery.--NCCAOM is not a licensing agency, and I'd say has a vested interest in the multiplication factor times exam fees they charge...>>BTW, NCCAOM is working very hard to get rid of the CA exam and replace>it with their own.--...and that the multiplication factor represented by California is very attractive to them. Added to which, as California requires competency in herbal medicine, they stand to gain an enormous windfall in terms of fees for their overpriced herbal exam.>They claim the CA exam prevents many competent px>from getting licensed.--An obviously bogus argument (NCCAOM's, not your's). First, anyone who takes the NCCAOM exam can practice many other places in the US. Second, it isn't only a matter of passing a licensing exam which qualifies a person to get a license: All the major states that I know of as using the NCCAOM test have additional educational requirements that go beyond the NCCAOM's idea of minimum safety standards.> On the other hand, to play devil's advocate,>passing the NCCAOM exam can be done by most students after 2 years of>school. It is a pretty lightweight exam. But apparently, NCCAOM dipl.>ac. have a much better record of safety and ethics than CA licensees.--I would really love to see what this PR claim is based on. A great many California licensees have the NCCA diploma -- has that been taken into account? Has a proper peer comparison been made to exclude variables such as length of time in practice, scope of practice and other differences in various states and locations?Rory-- Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

are they a private profitmaking corp? does anyone know?>>>I think officially they are not. But that does not mean they are not.

Alon

 

-

1

Sunday, February 03, 2002 5:14 PM

Re: doctorate gossip

> --> I would really love to see what this PR claim is based on. A great > many California licensees have the NCCA diploma -- has that been > taken into account? Has a proper peer comparison been made to exclude > variables such as length of time in practice, scope of practice and > other differences in various states and locations?> > RoryI guess I am curious, too. It was stated in the newsletter they mailed out last month. Believe me, I think they have major vested interests at stake here. BTW, are they a private profitmaking corp? does anyone know?Todd> --Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

I suspect having a title could either make or break you as an expert witness in court. The general public will not usually take you at your word.>>>>Not true I have broken expert testimony from orthopods at court. Just by showing that for example the so called expert did not recorded a scar. His entire testimony was thrown out.

Alon

 

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jramholz

Sunday, February 03, 2002 7:36 PM

Re: doctorate gossip

, "Alon Marcus" <alonmarcus@w...> << Why do you think a peace of paper will make anybody outrank any one. I have a DOM paper and it means nothing because there is no real Dr program. And having the schools create one will not change this until the schools are not regionally accredited and recognized by the major university system. Also in real life I don't think a title makes any difference >>Alon:A title certainly does make a great deal of difference. For example, if you have an MD license you don't really need any expertise in order to get patients and insurance coverage for acupuncture. What's a few hundred hours compared to 4000? If you don't have NCCAOM diplomate, you can't practice acupuncture in Colorado. Insurance companies require, in part, a title for you to receive reimbursements. I suspect having a title could either make or break you as an expert witness in court. The general public will not usually take you at your word.Having a doctorate, in the public's mind, assumes that a level of expertise is involved. How many people accept an MD's opinion over anyone else's---even a R.Ac. [Real Acupuncturist].I suspect having varied and tiered titles in CM will create more confusion and difficulties than benefits at this early stage of our historical development. And, it will not accurately represent the profession until the oldsters die off and the homogenized whippersnappers take over.It reminds me of a story Jeremy Ross told us [i hope I repeat it accurately]. He wanted to get an NCCAOM diplomate to practice in the US, but the schools in England don't keep records the way our schools do so his education was difficult to verify. It took him a long while before he finally got the diplomate---even though his own book was always on the recommended list for the NCCAOM test!Having the NCCAOM didn't improve his expertise but did change the way he could practice. A new doctorate, while acknowledging a level of formal education, says more about how we will be able to practice than what we actually know.Jim RamholzChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

 

----- OHaving the NCCAOM didn't improve his expertise but did change the way he could practice. A new doctorate, while acknowledging a level of formal education, says more about how we will be able to practice than what we actually know.

>>>>And that is why it should be done via regionaly accredited processes. Not NCCAOM

Alonriginal Message -----

jramholz

Sunday, February 03, 2002 7:36 PM

Re: doctorate gossip

, "Alon Marcus" <alonmarcus@w...> << Why do you think a peace of paper will make anybody outrank any one. I have a DOM paper and it means nothing because there is no real Dr program. And having the schools create one will not change this until the schools are not regionally accredited and recognized by the major university system. Also in real life I don't think a title makes any difference >>Alon:A title certainly does make a great deal of difference. For example, if you have an MD license you don't really need any expertise in order to get patients and insurance coverage for acupuncture. What's a few hundred hours compared to 4000? If you don't have NCCAOM diplomate, you can't practice acupuncture in Colorado. Insurance companies require, in part, a title for you to receive reimbursements. I suspect having a title could either make or break you as an expert witness in court. The general public will not usually take you at your word.Having a doctorate, in the public's mind, assumes that a level of expertise is involved. How many people accept an MD's opinion over anyone else's---even a R.Ac. [Real Acupuncturist].I suspect having varied and tiered titles in CM will create more confusion and difficulties than benefits at this early stage of our historical development. And, it will not accurately represent the profession until the oldsters die off and the homogenized whippersnappers take over.It reminds me of a story Jeremy Ross told us [i hope I repeat it accurately]. He wanted to get an NCCAOM diplomate to practice in the US, but the schools in England don't keep records the way our schools do so his education was difficult to verify. It took him a long while before he finally got the diplomate---even though his own book was always on the recommended list for the NCCAOM test!Having the NCCAOM didn't improve his expertise but did change the way he could practice. A new doctorate, while acknowledging a level of formal education, says more about how we will be able to practice than what we actually know.Jim RamholzChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

The PCOM doctorate IS regionally accredited.

 

 

On Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 06:46 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

 

>  

>

> ----- OHaving the NCCAOM didn't improve his expertise but did change the

> way he could practice. A new doctorate, while acknowledging a level

> of formal education, says more about how we will be able to practice

> than what we actually know.

> >>>>And that is why it should be done via regionaly accredited

> processes. Not NCCAOM

> Alon

[Guest guest]

, " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> An obviously bogus argument (NCCAOM's, not your's). First, anyone who

> takes the NCCAOM exam can practice many other places in the US.

> >>>>Well in truth one does not need a license to practice " herbalogy "

> Alon

 

However, in CA, a recent law change allows us to use herbs to treat

illness, not just as dietary supplements. Herb store clerks and HHP's

cannot claim to treat illness with herbs.

 

[Guest guest]

, " 1 " <@i...> wrote:

> However, in CA, a recent law change allows us to use herbs to

treat > illness, not just as dietary supplements. Herb store clerks

and HHP's > cannot claim to treat illness with herbs.>>

 

 

What sort of evidence of efficacy is required, if any, for an herb

or formula to be able to make that claim in CA?

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

 

An obviously bogus argument (NCCAOM's, not your's).

First, anyone who

takes the NCCAOM exam can practice many other places in the US.

>>>>Well

in truth one does not need a license to practice " herbalogy "

 

 

Alon

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is the biggest

disservice to out medicine, can’t something be done about this (nationwide)-

I still am completely perplexed why a acu with no herb training (in most states)

can practice herbal medicine….?????????????\

-Jason-

 

[Guest guest]

At 5:14 AM +0000 2/4/02, 1 wrote:

>, " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

>> An obviously bogus argument (NCCAOM's, not your's). First, anyone who

>> takes the NCCAOM exam can practice many other places in the US.

>> >>>>Well in truth one does not need a license to practice " herbalogy "

>> Alon

>

>However, in CA, a recent law change allows us to use herbs to treat

>illness, not just as dietary supplements. Herb store clerks and HHP's

>cannot claim to treat illness with herbs.

--

 

However, the point is that in California, even though you don't need

a license to practice herbology, to get an acupuncture license you

have to be examined in herbal medicine in the board exams. IMO that

should not be changed, as herbs are prescribed by a great majority of

California acupuncturists, and so the license assure the public of

minimum proficiency in this area.

 

Yet to have NCCAOM administer the exam for both herbs and acupuncture

would cost about $2000 per exam per examinee; I've also heard from

several people who have taken NCCAOM herbal exam that it sets a very

low standard. We don't need to lower standards.

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

At 11:15 PM +0000 2/3/02, 1 wrote:

>you should write them a rebuttal. I wonder if they will

>print it.

--

 

I don't receive their newsletter. Does it have contact information.

 

Rory

--

[Guest guest]

When did PCOM become regionally accredited?

Alon

 

-

 

Sunday, February 03, 2002 7:14 PM

Re: Re: doctorate gossip

The PCOM doctorate IS regionally accredited.On Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 06:46 PM, Alon Marcus wrote:

----- OHaving the NCCAOM didn't improve his expertise but did change theway he could practice. A new doctorate, while acknowledging a levelof formal education, says more about how we will be able to practicethan what we actually know.>>>>And that is why it should be done via regionaly accredited processes. Not NCCAOMAlon