Guest guest Posted February 2, 2002 Report Share Posted February 2, 2002 Does anyone have experience with steroid withdrawal with chinese herbs? I read an article form ITM on this years ago, but if memory serves, the emphasis was on yin tonics. the patient is definitely yang xu, so this does not seem to be a good approach. I was thinking perhaps of using yang tonics with yin tonics. NOTE: this is for an animal; I am not reducing drugs on a human without medical supervision -- , FAX: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2002 Report Share Posted February 2, 2002 I believe Michael Tierra had a very nice article posted on his website about this about a month ago, it may not be on the front page at the moment but bet its there. Check out www.planetherbs.com bob --- Todd < wrote: > Does anyone have experience with steroid withdrawal > with chinese herbs? > I read an article form ITM on this years ago, but if > memory serves, the > emphasis was on yin tonics. the patient is > definitely yang xu, so this > does not seem to be a good approach. I was thinking > perhaps of using > yang tonics with yin tonics. NOTE: this is for an > animal; I am not > reducing drugs on a human without medical > supervision > > -- > Chinese Herbs > > FAX: > Great stuff seeking new owners in Auctions! http://auctions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2002 Report Share Posted February 2, 2002 , Bob Linde <bob_and_robin> wrote: > I believe Michael Tierra had a very nice article > posted on his website about this about a month ago, it > may not be on the front page at the moment but bet its > there. Check out www.planetherbs.com > bob thanks. I did take a look. I found the article peculiar. It relied almost exclusively on shang han lun formulas, most containing chai hu. Since many TCM folks describe prednisone as a dispersing medicinal, perhaps subbing with another dispersing medicinal makes sense. On the other hand, the effects of prednisone damage the kidneys and arguably, since may diseases which get pred rx involve TCM kidney patterns, dispersing may be the wrong tx principle in the first place. the article contains no references and does not say where the case studies came from and includes this most peculiar quote " Bupleurum falcatum (Chai Hu) is an herb that is widely used in Japanese , called Kanpo and somewhat less so in TCM herbal medicine. " I don't know about the rest of you, but I use chai hu every day and it seems quite ubiquitous in chinese research and case studies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2002 Report Share Posted February 2, 2002 Todd I have seen quite a few patients in china and most were treated with K Yin , K yang of combined. Most of the problems were with recurring symptoms not with development of withdrawl symptoms Alon - 1 Saturday, February 02, 2002 4:32 PM Re: steroid withdrawal , Bob Linde <bob_and_robin> wrote:> I believe Michael Tierra had a very nice article> posted on his website about this about a month ago, it> may not be on the front page at the moment but bet its> there. Check out www.planetherbs.com> bobthanks. I did take a look. I found the article peculiar. It relied almost exclusively on shang han lun formulas, most containing chai hu. Since many TCM folks describe prednisone as a dispersing medicinal, perhaps subbing with another dispersing medicinal makes sense. On the other hand, the effects of prednisone damage the kidneys and arguably, since may diseases which get pred rx involve TCM kidney patterns, dispersing may be the wrong tx principle in the first place. the article contains no references and does not say where the case studies came from and includes this most peculiar quote "Bupleurum falcatum (Chai Hu) is an herb that is widely used in Japanese , called Kanpo and somewhat less so in TCM herbal medicine." I don't know about the rest of you, but I use chai hu every day and it seems quite ubiquitous in chinese research and case studies.ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2002 Report Share Posted February 2, 2002 Chinese research reports divide steroid withdrawal by (kidney) yin xu and yang xu. Generally, we see more yin xu while patients are on the steroids, yang xu after withdrawal, especially after long term use. And, of course, there may be other complexities, such as liver qi depression, spleen qi vacuity dampness, etc. Certainly, jin gui ba wei wan or even you gui yin could be useful. I often combine one or the other with xiao chai hu tang. On Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 01:28 PM, > Does anyone have experience with steroid withdrawal with chinese > herbs? I read an article form ITM on this years ago, but if memory > serves, the emphasis was on yin tonics. the patient is definitely yang > xu, so this does not seem to be a good approach. I was thinking > perhaps of using yang tonics with yin tonics. NOTE: this is for an > animal; I am not reducing drugs on a human without medical supervision > > -- > Chinese Herbs > > FAX: > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2002 Report Share Posted February 2, 2002 > > 1 > > , Bob Linde <bob_and_robin> wrote: > > I believe Michael Tierra had a very nice article > > posted on his website about this about a month ago, it > > may not be on the front page at the moment but bet its > > there. Check out www.planetherbs.com > > bob > > thanks. I did take a look. I found the article peculiar. It relied > almost exclusively on shang han lun formulas, most containing chai hu. This is might be because of the extensive research the Rx - chai ling tang has got in Japan for withdrawal from corticosteriods. With this rx and tapering of steroids, the steroids can be reduced by 2/3. (Dharmananda). Note chai ling tang is based on xiao chai hu tang.. Shaoyang anyone? -=Jason=- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2002 Report Share Posted February 2, 2002 -----Original Message----- [zrosenbe] Certainly, jin gui ba wei wan or even you gui yin could be useful. I often combine one or the other with xiao chai hu tang. Just a note : when using rehmannia, it has been shown to antagonize the suppressing effect of steroids on the HPA axis… Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2002 Report Share Posted February 2, 2002 Interesting research. I was suggesting the herbal prescriptions for tapering off the drug, or after stopping primarily. On Saturday, February 2, 2002, at 06:43 PM, wrote: > > > > > > [zrosenbe] > > > Certainly, jin gui ba wei wan or even you gui yin could be useful. I > often combine one or the other with xiao chai hu tang. > > > > Just a note : when using rehmannia, it has been shown to > antagonize the suppressing effect of steroids on the HPA axis… > > Jason > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2002 Report Share Posted February 2, 2002 , " " <@o...> wrote: > Just a note : when using rehmannia, it has been shown to antagonize the suppressing effect of steroids on the HPA axis. Jason: Rehmannia on its own, or any formula which contains it? Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2002 Report Share Posted February 2, 2002 , " 1 " <@i...> wrote: I don't know about the rest of you, but I use chai hu every day and it seems quite ubiquitous in chinese research and case studies. : Chai hu is in nearly every formula I use. It seems all the more necessary for the consequences on the liver due to the American lifestyle and stress levels. Perhaps it is needed less often in more rural settings and 3rd world countries. Has there every been any survey by the herbal companies regarding where it sells most often? Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2002 Report Share Posted February 3, 2002 > > jramholz [jramholz] > > > Jason: > > Rehmannia on its own, or any formula which contains it? > > > Jim Ramholz Well that is the magical question that we have all have wondered about.. Do herbs contain their individual properties/ actions in equal amounts / effectiveness in formulas as compared to the 'proposed' single herb functions/ effects... Well IMO, many herb functions, ala Bensky, are more dependent on other herbs (in the formals) to obtain their functions, because many of the (single)herbs functions are taken from formulas hence and are dependent on those other herbs. Bensky has actually stated a similar concept outside of his book, i.e. herbs really do only 1 thing, but in context with other herbs will change this function slightly. Of course every herb / function does not apply to this, but there are plenty that do. In regard to the question... a general answer: I would be more inclined to believe that single herbs that have functions or actions derived from modern research, done on single herbs, retain there action in a formula. But, obviously depending on the mechanism and the other herbs in the formula, one could create synergistic, additive, or antagonistic relationships. -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2002 Report Share Posted February 3, 2002 Chai hu is in nearly every formula I use. It seems all the more necessary for the consequences on the liver due to the American lifestyle and stress levels. Perhaps it is needed less often in more rural settings and 3rd world countries. Has there every been any survey by the herbal companies regarding where it sells most often?>>>>Just to show you how varies ideas can be. Most of the better herbalists I have studied with used extreme caution with chi hu. Lam Kang here is SF used to say one needs to treat it as a poisonous herb ie extreme causation as it can harm yin. Alon - jramholz Sunday, February 03, 2002 1:18 AM Re: steroid withdrawal , "1" <@i...> wrote:I don't know about the rest of you, but I use chai hu every day and it seems quite ubiquitous in chinese research and case studies.Todd:Chai hu is in nearly every formula I use. It seems all the more necessary for the consequences on the liver due to the American lifestyle and stress levels. Perhaps it is needed less often in more rural settings and 3rd world countries. Has there every been any survey by the herbal companies regarding where it sells most often?Jim RamholzChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2002 Report Share Posted February 3, 2002 ----- Original Messag In regard to the question... a general answer: I would be moreinclined to believe that single herbs that have functions or actionsderived from modern research, done on single herbs, retain there actionin a formula. But, obviously depending on the mechanism and the otherherbs in the formula, one could create synergistic, additive, orantagonistic relationships.>>>>>> I have always wanted to see studies on chemical changes done when a formula is cooked comparred to the ingridients within it. That should be very easy to do. As anybody done this? Do we have anybody with excess to equipment on this list who can do it? Alon Sunday, February 03, 2002 10:45 AM RE: Re: steroid withdrawal > > jramholz [jramholz]> > > Jason:> > Rehmannia on its own, or any formula which contains it?> > > Jim Ramholz Well that is the magical question that we have all have wondered about..Do herbs contain their individual properties/ actions in equal amounts /effectiveness in formulas as compared to the 'proposed' single herbfunctions/ effects... Well IMO, many herb functions, ala Bensky, aremore dependent on other herbs (in the formals) to obtain theirfunctions, because many of the (single)herbs functions are taken fromformulas hence and are dependent on those other herbs. Bensky hasactually stated a similar concept outside of his book, i.e. herbs reallydo only 1 thing, but in context with other herbs will change thisfunction slightly. Of course every herb / function does not apply tothis, but there are plenty that do. In regard to the question... a general answer: I would be moreinclined to believe that single herbs that have functions or actionsderived from modern research, done on single herbs, retain there actionin a formula. But, obviously depending on the mechanism and the otherherbs in the formula, one could create synergistic, additive, orantagonistic relationships.--Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2002 Report Share Posted February 3, 2002 Jason, > > Well that is the magical question that we have all have wondered about.. > Do herbs contain their individual properties/ actions in equal amounts / > effectiveness in formulas as compared to the 'proposed' single herb > functions/ effects... Well IMO, many herb functions, ala Bensky, are > more dependent on other herbs (in the formals) to obtain their > functions, because many of the (single)herbs functions are taken from > formulas hence and are dependent on those other herbs. Bensky has > actually stated a similar concept outside of his book, i.e. herbs really > do only 1 thing, but in context with other herbs will change this > function slightly. Of course every herb / function does not apply to > this, but there are plenty that do. > In regard to the question... a general answer: I would be more > inclined to believe that single herbs that have functions or actions > derived from modern research, done on single herbs, retain there action > in a formula. But, obviously depending on the mechanism and the other > herbs in the formula, one could create synergistic, additive, or > antagonistic relationships. This magical question involves such a complex array of variables that it virtually cries out to be considered in terms of complexity theory. Factors such as location, growing conditions, time of harvest, method (and length) of storage, preparation, etc. to name just a few of the wide range of factors that all come into play when trying to map the effective functions, properties, and agents in traditional Chinese medicinals. For various reasons, dealing with such a wide range and number of variables tends to make people uncomfortable, so we find emerging a lot of simplifications that are designed not so much to explain what's going on, but simply to eliminate large numbers of variables. This seems to be geared to a sense that underlying the variables there is some innate " essence " to be gleaned from the study of individual herbs. This, of course, is the pharmacological approach, which fundamentally sees Chinese medicines as Western medicines wearing Chinese clothing and names. In order to get to the " medicine " the " foreign " trappings have to be stripped away. But it seems to me, as you suggest here as well, that the answer to the magical question lies in the complex interactions that develop in a well scripted formula. The full expression of the magical question being " how do you use these substances and methods most effectively? " Even (perhaps especially) the dynamics between patient and physician, including such factors as " bedside manner " and " the placebo effect " all come to bear in determing what is " well scripted " . By theory it is that formula that most precisely fits the current circumstance. Thus we are only limited by our capacity to conceive of factors that constitute our circumstances. By strictly empirical standards, of course, well scripted means effective in the clinic. But that is really just a tautology, since we start out asking " what works? " and end up answering " what works. " This is one of the topics that has led me to believe that if we expect to come up with such answers, we should look for them in its complexity, not in comfortable simplifications about it. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2002 Report Share Posted February 3, 2002 , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > Chai hu is in nearly every formula I use. treat it as a poisonous herb ie extreme causation as it can harm yin. > Alon Using it cautiously is a separate issue from using it commonly. As Z'ev pointed out, it is a superior herb in shen nong ben cao. And its effects on yin can be mitigated by combination with other herbs like sheng di or bai shao. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2002 Report Share Posted February 3, 2002 I agree wholeheartedly, Ken. I think you've put your finger on the crux of the problem. That is, to really understand Chinese medicinals, the pharmacological approach alone will not be sufficient. Complexity takes into account all factors from patient/physician relationship to storage, harvest, preparation, yao dui/combination and pharmacological to get the entire picture. Otherwise, as a profession we will be relying on occasional scares caused by disconnected, impromptu discoveries of new herb/drug interactions based on scattered studies. In order to take our medicine into our own hands, we need to design research on multi-factorial analysis, and to have ongoing information retrieval, not just an occasional 'scare' study to keep the non-M.D.'s in their place. (There are voices in the biomedical world that understand this dilemma as well. Two researchers, Foss and Reichenberg, wrote a book titled " The Second Medical Revolution " published by Shambhala Publications on the need for an informational, multi-factoral approach to medicine.) We need to find a way to demonstrate the interactions of medicinals in complex prescriptions that treat patterns, so that Chinese medicinals are not just lumped in with pharmaceuticals and judged accordingly. Sometimes premature conclusions are reached, that have the end result of potentially restricting our use of Chinese herbs. On Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 10:10 AM, dragon90405 wrote: > This magical question involves such a complex > array of variables that it virtually cries out > to be considered in terms of complexity theory. > > Factors such as location, growing conditions, > time of harvest, method (and length) of storage, > preparation, etc. to name just a few of the > wide range of factors that all come into play > when trying to map the effective functions, > properties, and agents in traditional Chinese > medicinals. > > For various reasons, dealing with such a > wide range and number of variables tends > to make people uncomfortable, so we find > emerging a lot of simplifications that > are designed not so much to explain what's > going on, but simply to eliminate large > numbers of variables. This seems to be > geared to a sense that underlying the > variables there is some innate " essence " > to be gleaned from the study of individual > herbs. This, of course, is the pharmacological > approach, which fundamentally sees Chinese > medicines as Western medicines wearing > Chinese clothing and names. In order to > get to the " medicine " the " foreign " > trappings have to be stripped away. > > But it seems to me, as you suggest > here as well, that the answer to the magical > question lies in the complex interactions > that develop in a well scripted formula. > The full expression of the magical question > being " how do you use these substances > and methods most effectively? " > Even (perhaps especially) the dynamics > between patient and physician, including > such factors as " bedside manner " and > " the placebo effect " all come to bear in > determing what is " well scripted " . > > By theory it is that formula > that most precisely fits the current > circumstance. Thus we are only limited by > our capacity to conceive of factors that > constitute our circumstances. > > By strictly empirical standards, of course, > well scripted means effective in the > clinic. But that is really just a > tautology, since we start out asking > " what works? " and end up answering " what > works. " > > This is one of the topics that has led > me to believe that if we expect to come > up with such answers, we should look for > them in its complexity, not in comfortable > simplifications about it. > > Ken > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2002 Report Share Posted February 3, 2002 And its effects on yin can be mitigated by combination with other herbs like sheng di or bai shao.>>>Todd All I am pointing out is that opinions on these vary. The extensive use in Japan I think points to safety. Alon - 1 Sunday, February 03, 2002 1:03 PM Re: steroid withdrawal , "Alon Marcus" <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:> Chai hu is in nearly every formula I use. treat it as a poisonous herb ie extreme causation as it can harm yin. > AlonUsing it cautiously is a separate issue from using it commonly. As Z'ev pointed out, it is a superior herb in shen nong ben cao. And its effects on yin can be mitigated by combination with other herbs like sheng di or bai shao.ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2002 Report Share Posted February 3, 2002 Otherwise, as a profession we will be relying on occasional scares caused by disconnected, impromptu discoveries of new herb/drug interactions based on scattered studies. In order to take our medicine into our own hands, we need to design research on multi-factorial analysis, and to have ongoing information retrieval, not just an occasional 'scare' study to keep the non-M.D.'s in their place.>>>Totally agree. I would like to point out though that there are many such projects going on with WM that is multi-factorial research. I am working with the American osteopathic association on research projects and am aware of many such projects. Alon - Sunday, February 03, 2002 4:59 PM Re: Re: steroid withdrawal I agree wholeheartedly, Ken. I think you've put your finger on the crux of the problem. That is, to really understand Chinese medicinals, the pharmacological approach alone will not be sufficient. Complexity takes into account all factors from patient/physician relationship to storage, harvest, preparation, yao dui/combination and pharmacological to get the entire picture. Otherwise, as a profession we will be relying on occasional scares caused by disconnected, impromptu discoveries of new herb/drug interactions based on scattered studies. In order to take our medicine into our own hands, we need to design research on multi-factorial analysis, and to have ongoing information retrieval, not just an occasional 'scare' study to keep the non-M.D.'s in their place.(There are voices in the biomedical world that understand this dilemma as well. Two researchers, Foss and Reichenberg, wrote a book titled "The Second Medical Revolution" published by Shambhala Publications on the need for an informational, multi-factoral approach to medicine.) We need to find a way to demonstrate the interactions of medicinals in complex prescriptions that treat patterns, so that Chinese medicinals are not just lumped in with pharmaceuticals and judged accordingly. Sometimes premature conclusions are reached, that have the end result of potentially restricting our use of Chinese herbs.On Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 10:10 AM, dragon90405 wrote: This magical question involves such a complexarray of variables that it virtually cries outto be considered in terms of complexity theory.Factors such as location, growing conditions,time of harvest, method (and length) of storage,preparation, etc. to name just a few of thewide range of factors that all come into playwhen trying to map the effective functions,properties, and agents in traditional Chinesemedicinals.For various reasons, dealing with such awide range and number of variables tendsto make people uncomfortable, so we findemerging a lot of simplifications thatare designed not so much to explain what'sgoing on, but simply to eliminate largenumbers of variables. This seems to begeared to a sense that underlying thevariables there is some innate "essence"to be gleaned from the study of individualherbs. This, of course, is the pharmacologicalapproach, which fundamentally sees Chinesemedicines as Western medicines wearingChinese clothing and names. In order toget to the "medicine" the "foreign"trappings have to be stripped away.But it seems to me, as you suggesthere as well, that the answer to the magicalquestion lies in the complex interactionsthat develop in a well scripted formula.The full expression of the magical questionbeing "how do you use these substancesand methods most effectively?"Even (perhaps especially) the dynamicsbetween patient and physician, includingsuch factors as "bedside manner" and "the placebo effect" all come to bear indeterming what is "well scripted".By theory it is that formulathat most precisely fits the currentcircumstance. Thus we are only limited byour capacity to conceive of factors thatconstitute our circumstances.By strictly empirical standards, of course,well scripted means effective in theclinic. But that is really just atautology, since we start out asking"what works?" and end up answering "whatworks."This is one of the topics that has ledme to believe that if we expect to comeup with such answers, we should look forthem in its complexity, not in comfortablesimplifications about it.Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2002 Report Share Posted February 3, 2002 Otherwise, as a profession we will be relying on occasional scares caused by disconnected, impromptu discoveries of new herb/drug interactions based on scattered studies. In order to take our medicine into our own hands, we need to design research on multi-factorial analysis, and to have ongoing information retrieval, not just an occasional 'scare' study to keep the non-M.D.'s in their place.>>>Totally agree. I would like to point out though that there are many such projects going on with WM that is multi-factorial research. I am working with the American osteopathic association on research projects and am aware of many such projects. Alon [stephen Morrissey] Chinese Herbal Medicine provides a venue for the interaction between practitioners, teachers, and researchers that creates an infrastructrure to facilitate implementation of such a project. It just takes action rather than rhetoric. If everyone on this list contributed $10 or more a month to CHA to support research projects that pursue "research (designed) on multi-factorial analysis, and.. have ongoing information retrieval" then maybe Todd could continue to have a career in TCM without a doctoral degree AND a house on the beach. - Sunday, February 03, 2002 4:59 PM Re: Re: steroid withdrawal I agree wholeheartedly, Ken. I think you've put your finger on the crux of the problem. That is, to really understand Chinese medicinals, the pharmacological approach alone will not be sufficient. Complexity takes into account all factors from patient/physician relationship to storage, harvest, preparation, yao dui/combination and pharmacological to get the entire picture. Otherwise, as a profession we will be relying on occasional scares caused by disconnected, impromptu discoveries of new herb/drug interactions based on scattered studies. In order to take our medicine into our own hands, we need to design research on multi-factorial analysis, and to have ongoing information retrieval, not just an occasional 'scare' study to keep the non-M.D.'s in their place.(There are voices in the biomedical world that understand this dilemma as well. Two researchers, Foss and Reichenberg, wrote a book titled "The Second Medical Revolution" published by Shambhala Publications on the need for an informational, multi-factoral approach to medicine.) We need to find a way to demonstrate the interactions of medicinals in complex prescriptions that treat patterns, so that Chinese medicinals are not just lumped in with pharmaceuticals and judged accordingly. Sometimes premature conclusions are reached, that have the end result of potentially restricting our use of Chinese herbs.On Sunday, February 3, 2002, at 10:10 AM, dragon90405 wrote: This magical question involves such a complexarray of variables that it virtually cries outto be considered in terms of complexity theory.Factors such as location, growing conditions,time of harvest, method (and length) of storage,preparation, etc. to name just a few of thewide range of factors that all come into playwhen trying to map the effective functions,properties, and agents in traditional Chinesemedicinals.For various reasons, dealing with such awide range and number of variables tendsto make people uncomfortable, so we findemerging a lot of simplifications thatare designed not so much to explain what'sgoing on, but simply to eliminate largenumbers of variables. This seems to begeared to a sense that underlying thevariables there is some innate "essence"to be gleaned from the study of individualherbs. This, of course, is the pharmacologicalapproach, which fundamentally sees Chinesemedicines as Western medicines wearingChinese clothing and names. In order toget to the "medicine" the "foreign"trappings have to be stripped away.But it seems to me, as you suggesthere as well, that the answer to the magicalquestion lies in the complex interactionsthat develop in a well scripted formula.The full expression of the magical questionbeing "how do you use these substancesand methods most effectively?"Even (perhaps especially) the dynamicsbetween patient and physician, includingsuch factors as "bedside manner" and "the placebo effect" all come to bear indeterming what is "well scripted".By theory it is that formulathat most precisely fits the currentcircumstance. Thus we are only limited byour capacity to conceive of factors thatconstitute our circumstances.By strictly empirical standards, of course,well scripted means effective in theclinic. But that is really just atautology, since we start out asking"what works?" and end up answering "whatworks."This is one of the topics that has ledme to believe that if we expect to comeup with such answers, we should look forthem in its complexity, not in comfortablesimplifications about it.KenChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2002 Report Share Posted February 4, 2002 > , " stephen " <stephen@b...> wrote: > If everyone on this list contributed $10 or more a month to > > CHA to support research projects that pursue " research (designed) on multi-factorial analysis, and.. have ongoing information retrieval " then maybe Todd could continue to have a career in TCM without a doctoral degree AND a house on the beach.>> The major herb companies are multimillion dollar corporations now. Are they not already engaged in this type of research? It is in their interest and the return on investment should be significant. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2002 Report Share Posted February 4, 2002 While the major herb companies may have more bucks than they used to, it is a pittance for R & D compared to the pharmaceutical companies. But you are right, they should contribute to research projects. However, here in California, they are trying to save their necks from the bounty hunters enforcing proposition 65. Legal defense is quite expensive, and herb companies don't have armies of lawyers like the drug companies. On Monday, February 4, 2002, at 02:17 AM, jramholz wrote: > > , " stephen " <stephen@b...> wrote: > > If everyone on this list contributed $10 or more a month to > > > CHA to support research projects that pursue " research > (designed) on multi-factorial analysis, and.. have ongoing > information retrieval " then maybe Todd could continue to have a > career in TCM without a doctoral degree AND a house on the beach.>> > > > > The major herb companies are multimillion dollar corporations now. > Are they not already engaged in this type of research? It is in > their interest and the return on investment should be significant. > > > Jim Ramholz > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2002 Report Share Posted February 4, 2002 While the major herb companies may have more bucks than they used to, it is a pittance for R & D compared to the pharmaceutical companies. But you are right, they should contribute to research projects. >>>Some of them have tones of money, especially the ones that also do west nutrition and chinese, Douglas etc. they should do a lot more Alon - Monday, February 04, 2002 7:50 AM Re: Re: steroid withdrawal While the major herb companies may have more bucks than they used to, it is a pittance for R & D compared to the pharmaceutical companies. But you are right, they should contribute to research projects.However, here in California, they are trying to save their necks from the bounty hunters enforcing proposition 65. Legal defense is quite expensive, and herb companies don't have armies of lawyers like the drug companies.On Monday, February 4, 2002, at 02:17 AM, jramholz wrote: > , "stephen" <stephen@b...> wrote:> If everyone on this list contributed $10 or more a month to> > CHA to support research projects that pursue "research(designed) on multi-factorial analysis, and.. have ongoinginformation retrieval" then maybe Todd could continue to have acareer in TCM without a doctoral degree AND a house on the beach.>>The major herb companies are multimillion dollar corporations now.Are they not already engaged in this type of research? It is intheir interest and the return on investment should be significant.Jim Ramholz Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2002 Report Share Posted February 4, 2002 I was thinking more of the Chinese herb companies. Z'ev On Monday, February 4, 2002, at 09:29 AM, ALON MARCUS wrote: > While the major herb companies may have more bucks than they used to, > it is a pittance for R & D compared to the pharmaceutical companies. But > you are right, they should contribute to research projects. > >>>Some of them have tones of money, especially the ones that also do > west nutrition and chinese, Douglas etc. they should do a lot more > Alon > > - > > > Monday, February 04, 2002 7:50 AM > Re: Re: steroid withdrawal > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2002 Report Share Posted February 4, 2002 , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > While the major herb companies may have more bucks than they used to, it > is a pittance for R & D compared to the pharmaceutical companies. and the companies with real big money are not chinese herb companies. thus most research does not respect TCM principles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2002 Report Share Posted February 4, 2002 Alon - OHAI Press published some of these. Will In a message dated 2/3/02 9:58:18 AM Pacific Standard Time, alonmarcus writes: I have always wanted to see studies on chemical changes done when a formula is cooked comparred to the ingridients within it. That should be very easy to do. As anybody done this? Do we have anybody with excess to equipment on this list who can do it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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