Guest guest Posted February 10, 2002 Report Share Posted February 10, 2002 I am not, of course, arguing for deception or mislabeling; just pointing out an interesting observation. In the past, a number of spiked herbal formulas appear to have worked better than the herbs or meds alone. Tung Xue from the late 80s is the example that comes to mind. Since many patients are already on Western meds, it makes sense to me to work with and around meds while you try to replace them. In Colorado, it is not in our scope of practice to tell a patient to take or to stop a medicine prescribed by an MD. Giving someone herbs to mitigate the side effects and allowing them to reduce the dosage of Western meds is a similar situation: herbs and meds are used together. Using herbal formulas to help minimize the dose---and therefore the cost of prescriptions---of a Western drug when its use cannot be avoided is something we may want to promote. It would be interesting to promote this idea as a public service in California, where busloads of senior citizens travel to Mexico to try and save some money on their prescriptions. It would go a long way to help change people's impressions about herbs when they hear these types of widely publicized stories about tryptophan and PC SPEC---and it could save them money. What do you think? Jim Ramholz , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > That seems like a strange argument in this case, Jim. > > Since there is a small history of mixing pharmaceuticals with herbal > products in China, this doesn't seem to be an anomaly or error, at least > on the production side. It may be true that the company was unaware of > this, but routine product testing is a good idea. > > The products may have been more powerful, but they had more side > effects. For example, 'extra-strength' yin qiao tablets were quite > strong. . . some of my patients who had them from herb stores couldn't > sleep well for several days from the drugs. I don't know if this makes > the products 'more effective'. Powerful products are good targets for > abuse, by practitioners and public, since they will do something even if > the patient is incorrectly diagnosed. Usually that something is > suppression of symptoms. > > The black phoenix pills, for example, will suppress arthritis symptoms, > due to containing prednisone and amytryptilline. > > People have a right to know what products contain, and combinations of > herbs and pharmaceuticals have to be carefully balanced. . . .which > means, usually not in the same product. The interactions are a complete > unknown. > > > > > On Sunday, February 10, 2002, at 09:32 PM, jramholz wrote: > > > In the U.S., there have been a number of TV news shows about the > > transportation of foods in container trucks that have previously > > carried chemicals. As a consequence of their not being adequately > > cleaned out, foods have been contaminated. > > > > But, as I recall, all the herbal products that contained illegal > > pharmaceuticals worked far better than the herbal formulas alone. > > Illegality aside, perhaps there is a leason here about the efficacy > > of using smaller doses of meds with herbs. > > > > > > Jim Ramholz > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2002 Report Share Posted February 11, 2002 , " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote: > Since many patients are already on Western meds, it makes sense to > me to work with and around meds while you try to replace them. Jim, I think this is a noble thought. In practice, however,replacing Western meds, would require a comprehensive approach which should address all levels of a patient's persona including lifestyle, diet, belief systems and emotional makeup. Afterall, it was deficiencies in these aspects that led to the meds in most cases. How many practitioners are in that position to have such a thorough effect on their patients? How many have nutritional protocols that are tailored to meet each patient's constitution? What about exercise? Telling a patient to exercise and teaching them a system of exercise according to their needs are two different stories. Are patients being taught exercises and later tested to see if indeed they are practicing ? >In Colorado, it is not in our scope of practice to tell a patient to > take or to stop a medicine prescribed by an MD. It is not in Florida neither. However, even if it were within the scope of practice, is this something that we would really want to do? Do we as a profession have sufficient training and experience to tell/ask a pt to stop taking an anti-depressant or blood thinner. How many are on-call 24 hrs a day or have another practitioner filling in when we are away in case of a reaction from meds removal? Furthermore, is there enough *faith and prestige* towards our profession from the general public for patients to go off meds based on our advice? >Giving someone herbs to mitigate the side effects and allowing them >to reduce the dosage of Western meds is a similar situation: herbs >and meds are used together. Not sure that mitigating side effects with herbs would lead to a reduction of meds' dosage. It could, however, negate the need for meds that are use for side effects from other meds. Reduction of Western meds, imo, could only happen if we also address the symptom that the Western med was intended for. Unless we are able to monitor with lab work, this could lead to problems. > Using herbal formulas to help minimize the dose---and therefore the > cost of prescriptions---of a Western drug when its use cannot be > avoided is something we may want to promote. As stated above, only if we offer a complete package and address the complaint directly with our therapy. > It would be interesting > to promote this idea as a public service in California, where > busloads of senior citizens travel to Mexico to try and save some > money on their prescriptions. Seniors as a population have greater faith and prestige on their MDs than on any other practitioners. In my experience, these patients are very wary when it comes to herbs interacting with their meds, and rightly so. > It would go a long way to help change people's impressions about > herbs when they hear these types of widely publicized stories about > tryptophan and PC SPEC---and it could save them money. What do you > think? I am still growing as an herbalist and am not prepared for the Western meds/Chinese herbs fusion. As far as saving seniors money, I think that a sliding scale would fit the bill in some cases. However, as I'm sure others have seen, many seniors cry the blues about being broke, yet they take trips to Mexico, European tours, and Caribbean cruises. It's all about priorities, is what I think. Fernando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2002 Report Share Posted February 11, 2002 I agree totally, Fernando. When we look at the examples of classical physicians such as Sun Si-miao, Li Dong-yuan, and Zhu Dan-xi, we see that it is important to create comprehensive programs for one's patients, including diet, exercise, emotional issues, lifestyle, herbal medicine, and acupuncture to restore the body's normal timing and equilibrium of the channels. This is a comprehensive approach to Chinese medicine. I try to do this with most of my patients, although it is very time consuming to do so. I refer to yoga and qi gong instructors for the exercise protocols. The issue of medication is more delicate. Many of my patients use them, and it has become a necessity to work with this reality, as Jim points out. On Monday, February 11, 2002, at 06:50 AM, fbernall wrote: > , " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote: > > Since many patients are already on Western meds, it makes sense to > > me to work with and around meds while you try to replace them. > > Jim, I think this is a noble thought. In practice, > however,replacing Western meds, would require a comprehensive approach > which should address all levels of a patient's persona including > lifestyle, diet, belief systems and emotional makeup. Afterall, it was > deficiencies in these aspects that led to the meds in most cases. > > How many practitioners are in that position to have such a thorough > effect on their patients? How many have nutritional protocols that are > tailored to meet each patient's constitution? What about exercise? > Telling a patient to exercise and teaching them a system of exercise > according to their needs are two different stories. Are patients being > taught exercises and later tested to see if indeed they are practicing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2002 Report Share Posted February 11, 2002 Fernando: Since patients under our care in many cases reduce their drug dosages or end their need for taking it altogether---e.g., headache and arthritis---we are already doing it. I think the real problem is that we can't overtly promote " replace your meds and save money " because it would directly compete with Western medicine and openly acknowledge the treatment of western diseases. >> Do we as a profession have sufficient training and experience to >> tell/ask a pt to stop taking an anti-depressant or blood thinner. I never tell them to chnge their dose. But I do ask the patient to have their doctor monitor them to see if it is still necessary and moderate their dose. Don't you? >> Not sure that mitigating side effects with herbs would lead to a >> reduction of meds' dosage. It happens all the time. Again I think the problem is about the promotion and marketing we may need to restrict ourselves to so we don't overstep our scope of practice. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2002 Report Share Posted February 11, 2002 Jim, I think this is a noble thought. In practice, however,replacing Western meds, would require a comprehensive approach which should address all levels of a patient's persona including lifestyle, diet, belief systems and emotional makeup. Afterall, it was deficiencies in these aspects that led to the meds in most cases.How many practitioners are in that position to have such a thorough effect on their patients? How many have nutritional protocols that are tailored to meet each patient's constitution? What about exercise? Telling a patient to exercise and teaching them a system of exercise according to their needs are two different stories. Are patients being taught exercises and later tested to see if indeed they are practicing >>>>> Fernando The problem with these kind of statement is that they are way too generic. Many drugs are easily to eliminate while others are impossible with the best of intention and knowledge. This type of discussion can only be done case by case and disease by disease Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2002 Report Share Posted February 11, 2002 , " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: The problem with these kind of statement is that they are way too generic. Many drugs are easily to eliminate while others are impossible with the best of intention and knowledge. This type of discussion can only be done case by case and disease by disease.>> True enough; but not the point I was trying to make. I was proposing the idea as a marketing tool to promote our profession and counter adverse media reactions to stories about tryptophan and PC SPES--- perhaps anything too successful on its own. Say, for example, " people who use Chinese herbs need fewer and lower doses of drugs to feel good. " The issue is not whether it is true or how is it true, but whether our scope of practice allows us to say it and if it is a safe thing to do in this political climate. Perhaps a study needs to be done. This could be carried out at school clinics. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2002 Report Share Posted February 11, 2002 Say, for example, "people who use Chinese herbs need fewer and lower doses of drugs to feel good." The issue is not whether it is true or how is it true, but whether our scope of practice allows us to say it and if it is a safe thing to do in this political climate.>>>> Jim This is a double sord. On the one hand it good for general consumption. On the other it may get the medical community in an uproar Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 11, 2002 Report Share Posted February 11, 2002 May? Jim Ramholz , " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> On the one hand it good for general consumption. On the other it may get the medical community in an uproar > Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2002 Report Share Posted February 12, 2002 When you are saying that you need less medication, that would mean that MDs can no more be sure of the dosage they are giving. Considered interactions are happening you might even need more medication in some cases. This definitely is a topic that can bring many difficulties to herbalists. It's no reason to look aside but I wouldn't go marketing with this! Better to differentiate certain diseases, western meds and so on. Next step would be to have some studies. Of which examples are you thinking? Where can you say that you definitely needed less western medication (in more than one case)? Patrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2002 Report Share Posted February 12, 2002 Patrick: Off the top of my head: headaches, asthma, osteoarthritis, allergies, sinusitis, fatigue, and common cold. Jim Ramholz , " Patrick Rudolph " <patim.rudolph@g...> wrote: > Of which examples are you thinking? Where can you say that you definitely needed less western medication (in more than one case)? > > Patrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2002 Report Share Posted February 12, 2002 Jim, Jumping back into the discussion after 10 days in Quintan Roo. Forgive me if I', restating something that has already been well hashed over. Lots of published studies in China demonstrate exactly this. See any number of such studies in Chinese Medical Psychiatry or in our up-coming The Treatment of Diabetes with . In these two books alone, I would estimate that there are abstracts of 20 studies showing that the combination of Chinese and Western meds allows for 1) lower doses of the Western meds, 2) better therapeutic effect, and 3) less adverse reactions. Bob , " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote: > , " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> > wrote: The problem with these kind of statement is that they are way > too generic. Many drugs are easily to eliminate while others are > impossible with the best of intention and knowledge. This type of > discussion can only be done case by case and disease by disease.>> > > > True enough; but not the point I was trying to make. I was proposing > the idea as a marketing tool to promote our profession and counter > adverse media reactions to stories about tryptophan and PC SPES--- > perhaps anything too successful on its own. > > Say, for example, " people who use Chinese herbs need fewer and lower > doses of drugs to feel good. " The issue is not whether it is true or > how is it true, but whether our scope of practice allows us to say > it and if it is a safe thing to do in this political climate. > > Perhaps a study needs to be done. This could be carried out at > school clinics. > > Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2002 Report Share Posted February 12, 2002 Patrick, I believe that there are several multipatient studies which you can read for free at www.chinesemedicalpsychiatry.com showing that the combination of CM and WM reduces the necessary dosage of WMeds in the treatment of several different psychiatric disorders. Bob , " Patrick Rudolph " <patim.rudolph@g...> wrote: > > When you are saying that you need less medication, that would mean that MDs > can no more be sure of the dosage they are giving. Considered interactions > are happening you might even need more medication in some cases. > This definitely is a topic that can bring many difficulties to herbalists. > It's no reason to look aside but I wouldn't go marketing with this! > > Better to differentiate certain diseases, western meds and so on. Next step > would be to have some studies. > > Of which examples are you thinking? Where can you say that you definitely > needed less western medication (in more than one case)? > > Patrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 12, 2002 Report Share Posted February 12, 2002 Bob, Thanks for the response. Is the trip tax deductible if you go to the Sian Ka'an Biosphere Reserve? Jim Ramholz , " pemachophel2001 " <pemachophel2001> wrote: Jumping back into the discussion after 10 days in Quintan Roo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2002 Report Share Posted February 13, 2002 Jim, Didn't make it to Sian Ka'an, but did spend some time with Mayan honey gatherer who made traditional medicines out of honey, pollen, and propolis. Maybe the IRS would buy that. Actually, we are planning two 4 day classes in Quintana Roo next April (2003) or November (2003). Those will be fully tax deductible as well as qualifying for NCCAOM PDAs and state CEUs (in those states that require CEUs). Three hours of class per day for 4 days for $300, plus $40 per person per day for room, breakfast, and dinner at Kailuum II at Punta Bete. There'll be one day off between the two classes. So people can do just one class or do both and stay for 8-11 days. Bob , " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote: > Bob, > > Thanks for the response. Is the trip tax deductible if you go to the > Sian Ka'an Biosphere Reserve? > > Jim Ramholz > > > > , " pemachophel2001 " > <pemachophel2001> wrote: Jumping back into the discussion after > 10 days in Quintan Roo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 2002 Report Share Posted February 14, 2002 Is there any evidence that Xanax improves immune function? It seems an unlikely deliberate adulterant. (And I'm surprised about Warfrin being the adulterant for prostate treatment, although I've suspected hormonal adulterants to PCSPECS.) Karen Vaughan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 14, 2002 Report Share Posted February 14, 2002 , " creationsgarden " < creationsgarden@j...> wrote: > Is there any evidence that Xanax improves immune function? It seems > an unlikely deliberate adulterant. however, consider that people who take a product for immune enhancement may not be getting any objective tests to verify changes in immunity. their evaluation may be subjective. since xanax decreases anxiety, some people may experience a feeling of well being that they mistake for some deeper level improvement. also, an improvement in mood in some people may lead to less allergies and less colds, which may be perceived as immune enhancement, and perhaps it actually is, from a psychoneuroimmunological perspective. from a marketing point of view,it actually makes a lot of sense to put a mood enhancer drug in a product that is typically assessed by the lay user, not a laboratory. Sort of an analogy is the case of blue-green algae. While this is not an issue of adulteration, it is interesting. BGA is said to enhance immunity, etc. etc. etc. However, reports from sources I consider reputable have informed me that a natural constituent of BGA has turned out to be a cocaine analog and that the mild euphoria from this molecule (albeit 1000 times weaker than cocaine itself) causes a sense of wellbeing in users that is mistaken for some deeper level healing. (I know this point is contested by celltech, but independent researchers seem to concur on it) It is as if one was fatigued, depressed and in pain and all those symptoms went away from taking an plant that produced " natural " prozac. the lay user would assume they had somehow been miraculously healed, when all they were was propped up for a time with an inferior class herb, with great potential for longterm harm to their essence. > > (And I'm surprised about Warfrin being the adulterant for prostate > treatment, although I've suspected hormonal adulterants to PCSPECS.) they are the only adulterants identified thus far. perhaps they are easy to identify. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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