Guest guest Posted February 16, 2002 Report Share Posted February 16, 2002 Actually this sort of goes to what this list can and can't do. Respectfully to the others, Colleen has attempted in her own way to answer my question. Bob's answer to just treat the pattern was also very good. (I guess this means that he doesn't feel that there are any " special " herbs. Fair enough) If the tongue is this or that, or the symptoms this way or that, I know how to treat that. My original question was simple enough. Was there any modern research someone can point me to? In addition to the pattern, if there is an herb that is particularily helpful I want to know about it. I think this forum is the right place to ask that. > Colleen Morris wrote: > > > Doug, > > > > I have had some good results with Vagistatin from Health Concerns for > > HPV. You will also want to add a heat clearing formula - they recommend > > Clear Heat, but you could use Long Dan Xie Gan Tang if the presentation > > were correct. For some women this can be intense so you may need to > > moderate with something like Reishi or Jiaogulan. Another formula to > > consider is Gui Zhi Fu Ling Wan. > > > > Colleen > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2002 Report Share Posted February 16, 2002 Actually this sort of goes to what this list can and can't do.Respectfully to the others, Colleen has attempted in her own way to answer my question. Bob's answer to just treat the pattern was also very good. (I guess this means that he doesn't feel that there are any "special" herbs. Fair enough) If the tongue is this or that, or the symptoms this way or that, I know how to treat that.>>>Douglas, At this point its a mantra and since how can one argue with this line of talk never mind. Also, dysplasa is not used anylonger the criteria is low grade SIL , high grade with some other types. over 50 % of low grade SIL will resolve on there own in 3-12 months regardless of what you do, yogurt dush or anything else. So to show efficacy one will have to do a very good study. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2002 Report Share Posted February 16, 2002 , wrote: > In addition to the pattern, if there is an herb that is particularily helpful I want to know about it. I think this forum is the right place to ask that. Doug I think it is the right place. Anyone who knows either you or Colleen would realize that you both practice by pattern discrimination. I took your question in the context of wanting to add herbs based upon their affects on the pathology from a modern perspective. While I would use such herbs only in the context of a pattern, I think there is a good case to be made for using them allopathically, as well. So an herb that corrects dysplasia would only interest me if it also addressed the pattern my patient presented with. I think using a heat toxin herb where it is not indicated in TCM might lead to undesirable consequences, though I think this is far from proven. Consider the vast number of studies from china that ignore pattern dx and still claim great results. In addition, despite my personal bias, I also think that nontoxic, noninvasive use of herbs even from an allopathic perspective is perhaps useful. It certainly is a step above modern medicine. If we can agree that the use of a drug like prozac or benadryl or chemotherapy has its place in modern medicine, then we must accept the same thing to be true about the allopathic use of herbs. So, for example, perhaps bai hua she she cao would be active against all cancers. then, as TCM practitioners, our main goal would be to mitigate side effects when this herb was used in certain patterns. Even in china, cancer is treated with chemo without regard to pattern and then herbs are added acording to pattern. This approach is apparently more successful than merely using herbs alone. the same has been shown to be true of using drugs in combination with herbs to treat a wide variety of disorders. In my own practice, I see only benfit from using milkthistle in hep C patients or glucosamine in arthritis. And the modern research supports this approach. We may worry theroretically about side effects, but the complete lack of any documented iatrogenesis from these substances belies that fear. As for Colleen's suggestion of guiding formulas, I perceived that to be based upon her experience and hardly a rejection of pattern dx. Because we all know that even though we make pattern dx in TCM, the majority of patients with a given disease tend to fall into certain recurring groups. Even in Bob's new western disease book, to paraphrase the remarks at the end of several chapter, such as FMS, note that what ever else may be present, liver-spleen disharmony is seen in most of these patients. So xiao yao san may end up being a guiding rx in the majority of such cases. but you still need to do complete pattern dx to properly modify the rx for success. Having said that, I also have to comment that I find it unlikely that low doses patents have much impact on advanced cervical dysplasia. Since bad paps typically revert in six months time even without treatment, I would be cautious in believing any cure was due to the use of herbs in this scenario. Except in a controlled study, this claim cannot be made as spontaneous remission is so high. I am still really interested in hearing about cases of any disease treated with chinese herbs for which succcess can be objectively demonstrated in situations where remission is rare. for instance, I am aware of several cases of reversal of cirrhosis in hep C as demonstrated by biopsy and confirmed by the chief hepatologist at Oregon Health Sciences U. For the sake of the earlier argument about allopathic use of herbs, I have to note that these cases were treated by a combination of TCM pattern based rx and the use of herbs and other supplements from an allopathic/naturopathic basis (milthistle, glutathione, megadose vitamin c, etc.). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 16, 2002 Report Share Posted February 16, 2002 My main objection is to the idea of using one prescription to balance out another one. There is no precedence for using this approach in Chinese herbal medicine. This type of 'formula balancing' is not very different from using different drugs to treat side effects caused by other drugs. The method you are describing below (chemotherapy, anti-cancer medicinals) is du yao gong xie/attack evils with toxic medicinals, and is a valid approach in CM. However, it needs to be used with restraint and care to be effective, and it is not, in my understanding, meant to be used with any side effects. The use of chemotherapy in China is not the result of TCM theory, but biomedicine. As far as anti-cancer medicinals go, I will quote a Chinese cancer specialist, Dr. Song Hing (translated by Dr. C.S. Cheung): " After taking (toxic anti-cancer agents), vomiting and diarrhea may develop with serious fluid depletion and damage of correct qi. The net results are speeding up of malignant changes " . (Dr. Song Hing) " There is no information on panacea-healing- using a rigid formula or specific herb- of cancer. The rule of the game is that formulas and herbs must be modified according to pattern diagnosis without exception or excuse. " (Dr. Cheung) On Saturday, February 16, 2002, at 10:55 AM, 1 wrote: > > I took > your question in the context of wanting to add herbs based upon their > affects on the pathology from a modern perspective. While I would use > such herbs only in the context of a pattern, I think there is a good > case to be made for using them allopathically, as well. So an herb > that corrects dysplasia would only interest me if it also addressed the > pattern my patient presented with. I think using a heat toxin herb > where it is not indicated in TCM might lead to undesirable > consequences, though I think this is far from proven. Consider the > vast number of studies from china that ignore pattern dx and still > claim great results. In addition, despite my personal bias, I also > think that nontoxic, noninvasive use of herbs even from an allopathic > perspective is perhaps useful. It certainly is a step above modern > medicine. If we can agree that the use of a drug like prozac or > benadryl or chemotherapy has its place in modern medicine, then we must > accept the same thing to be true about the allopathic use of herbs. > So, for example, perhaps bai hua she she cao would be active against > all cancers. then, as TCM practitioners, our main goal would be to > mitigate side effects when this herb was used in certain patterns. > Even in china, cancer is treated with chemo without regard to pattern > and then herbs are added acording to pattern. This approach is > apparently more successful than merely using herbs alone. the same has > been shown to be true of using drugs in combination with herbs to treat > a wide variety of disorders. In my own practice, I see only benfit > from using milkthistle in hep C patients or glucosamine in arthritis. > And the modern research supports this approach. We may worry > theroretically about side effects, but the complete lack of any > documented iatrogenesis from these substances belies that fear. > > As for Colleen's suggestion of guiding formulas, I perceived that to be > based upon her experience and hardly a rejection of pattern dx. > Because we all know that even though we make pattern dx in TCM, the > majority of patients with a given disease tend to fall into certain > recurring groups. Even in Bob's new western disease book, to > paraphrase the remarks at the end of several chapter, such as FMS, note > that what ever else may be present, liver-spleen disharmony is seen in > most of these patients. So xiao yao san may end up being a guiding rx > in the majority of such cases. but you still need to do complete > pattern dx to properly modify the rx for success. > > Having said that, I also have to comment that I find it unlikely that > low doses patents have much impact on advanced cervical dysplasia. > Since bad paps typically revert in six months time even without > treatment, I would be cautious in believing any cure was due to the use > of herbs in this scenario. Except in a controlled study, this claim > cannot be made as spontaneous remission is so high. > > I am still really interested in hearing about cases of any disease > treated with chinese herbs for which succcess can be objectively > demonstrated in situations where remission is rare. for instance, I am > aware of several cases of reversal of cirrhosis in hep C as > demonstrated by biopsy and confirmed by the chief hepatologist at > Oregon Health Sciences U. For the sake of the earlier argument about > allopathic use of herbs, I have to note that these cases were treated > by a combination of TCM pattern based rx and the use of herbs and other > supplements from an allopathic/naturopathic basis (milthistle, > glutathione, megadose vitamin c, etc.). > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2002 Report Share Posted February 17, 2002 My main objection is to the idea of using one prescription to balance out another one. >>>Zev that is not true and for example both Dr Lai and others I have seen would say "the patient main pattern diagnosis is K yang def for example, however his body can not accept the herbs (usually pertaining to sideeffects) so we have to add this and that herbs (true not a formula per say). Certainly if one phrases the same in words of pathomechnichis, herb nature then it is done all the time. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2002 Report Share Posted February 17, 2002 The example you give, Alon, doesn't really effectively argue against what I was trying to say. What does 'main pattern diagnosis' mean? That there are other subsidiary or secondary diagnoses? This is a good argument for the complex pattern strategies of Li Dong-yuan and Xu Dan-xi. It is not the same to create a prescription that deals with a mixed pattern than it is to give a prescription that creates an imbalance (for example, a strong heat clearing prescription with bitter cold medicinals in a spleen yang vacuity patient with a local hot lesion ) with another prescription (that is warming the yang) to rectify that imbalance. Choose a prescription that deals with all aspects of the pattern, and this will not be necessary. Nor will there be 'side effects'. If we taught our students effectively how to do this, then there would be less 'throwing of herbs and prescriptions' at patients. On Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 09:07 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > > My main objection is to the idea of using one prescription to balance > out another one. > >>>Zev that is not true and for example both Dr Lai and others I have > seen would say " the patient main pattern diagnosis is K yang def for > example, however his body can not accept the herbs (usually pertaining > to sideeffects) so we have to add this and that herbs (true not a > formula per say). Certainly if one phrases the same in words of > pathomechnichis, herb nature then it is done all the time. > Alon > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2002 Report Share Posted February 17, 2002 , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > > My main objection is to the idea of using one prescription to balance > out another one. There is no precedence for using this approach in > Chinese herbal medicine. This type of 'formula balancing' is not very > different from using different drugs to treat side effects caused by > other drugs. Actually it is quite different and also fairly common in modern China based upon reports from ITM. the precedence is not in using a formula to balance a formula. a drug is not a formula. It is a medicinal. And it is quite common to mitigate a medicinals side effects with another medicinal in the formula. This is mutual counteraction/ suppression, a basic herb combining principle in TCM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2002 Report Share Posted February 17, 2002 Can you share some of that ITM data? It sounds strange to me that in mainland China there would be case studies where a prescription was given to balance the side effects of another prescription. On Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 11:54 AM, 1 wrote: > > Actually it is quite different and also fairly common in modern China > based upon reports from ITM. the precedence is not in using a formula > to balance a formula. a drug is not a formula. It is a medicinal. > And it is quite common to mitigate a medicinals side effects with > another medicinal in the formula. This is mutual counteraction/ > suppression, a basic herb combining principle in TCM. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2002 Report Share Posted February 17, 2002 Zev You are not correct. Since I have worked in surgery department in china I have seen this done all the time. For example very strong cold purgatives used for an acute situation (ie needed to treat a branch symptom) and than putting in herbs to protect spleen, is one example. This type of thinking is part of the course in the purgative school. I am not talking about the so called complex pattern strategies of Li Dong-yuan etc. But simple branch root treatments that are used so often in purgative school Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2002 Report Share Posted February 17, 2002 Again, Alon, you are describing a different situation. You are talking about using a raw prescription, and modifying it to treat the entire pattern. There isn't a problem using precipitation with warming medicinals to protect spleen. . . .in fact, da cheng qi tang/major qi coordinating decoction does just that by including hou po/magnolia bark. This is not the same as combining two 'patent' medicines from different companies to try to find a balance. What you are describing is treating root and branch concurrently. It is based on a treatment strategy and working diagnosis with a specific patient. Vagistatin is a proprietary product from health concerns, It is not a classical CM prescription. To combine this with long gan xie gan tang, and possibly reishi or jiaogulan, I would have to see the particular patient, the diagnosis, and treatment strategy. That is all Bob Flaws and myself were asking about. When advice like this is given, we have to be cautious as to how and by who it is taken. Especially with potential cancer or pre-cancerous conditions. On Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 03:06 PM, Alon Marcus wrote: > Zev > You are not correct. Since I have worked in surgery department in china > I have seen this done all the time. For example very strong cold > purgatives used for an acute situation (ie needed to treat a branch > symptom) and than putting in herbs to protect spleen, is one example. > This type of thinking is part of the course in the purgative school. I > am not talking about the so called complex pattern strategies of Li > Dong-yuan etc. But simple branch root treatments that are used so often > in purgative school > Alon > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2002 Report Share Posted February 18, 2002 Z'ev, This current discussion highlights the fact that, in CM, oncology (zhong liu ke) is a very specialized department. In my own limited experience (my main CM herb teacher, Dr. Yu Min, was a zhong liu ke specialist), it is considered ok and even necessary by some CM cancer specialists to produce side effects when treating cancer with Chinese meds. In that case, other formulas may be given to mitigate those side effects. One of the problems with treating cancer with CM is how to get enough meds into the body to be strong enough to fight the evil qi (according to Sun Bing-yin, a famous CM oncology expert, there is always evil qi in cancer). Therefore, it is not uncommon to prescribe three, four, or more formulas in various forms (perhaps one decoction and then one or more pills, powders, or injectionas) in order to get in enough medication. When Sun Bing-yin briefly practiced in Palo Alto a number of years ago before the INS shipped him back to the PRC, he commonly prescribed one decoction and three or four pills per day. When the FDa confiscated these pills, he was effectively hamstrung. Somewhat along the same lines, when I used to go to the pharmacy at the Long Hua and Yue Yang hospitals in Shanghai, the bao or packets for the cancer patients were always huge. They were markedly larger than the boa for the treatment of other, benign conditions. When I asked about this, I was told they were huge because of 1) the larger than normal doses per ingredient, and 2) the larger than normal number of ingredients. Presumably, some of those ingredients were in those formulas to harmonize other ingredients. Certainly that is the case in many of Sun Bing-yin's published formulas. These are just some of the reasons I am very trepidatious about the CM treatment of cancer by those not specifically trained in this very special specialty. BTW, I was not necessarily criticizing Collen's practice when I questioned her treatment recommendations to Douglas. What I was suggesting was more careful and professionally adequate communication. In a medium like this, we only know what people put into words. If those words are not adequate or accurate, then that's the impression the reader is left with. Bob , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > Can you share some of that ITM data? > It sounds strange to me that in mainland China there would be case > studies where a prescription was given to balance the side effects of > another prescription. > > > On Sunday, February 17, 2002, at 11:54 AM, 1 wrote: > > > > > Actually it is quite different and also fairly common in modern China > > based upon reports from ITM. the precedence is not in using a formula > > to balance a formula. a drug is not a formula. It is a medicinal. > > And it is quite common to mitigate a medicinals side effects with > > another medicinal in the formula. This is mutual counteraction/ > > suppression, a basic herb combining principle in TCM. > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2002 Report Share Posted February 18, 2002 This is not the same as combining two 'patent' medicines from different companies to try to find a balance.>>>>>Zev I have seen for example 6 gents pills given to a patient to take home to protect against a purging treatment done in the hospital. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2002 Report Share Posted February 18, 2002 , " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > This is not the same as combining two 'patent' medicines from different companies to try to find a balance. > >>>>>Zev I have seen for example 6 gents pills given to a patient to take home to protect against a purging treatment done in the hospital. > Alon And the combination of whole formulas, even if I consider it shotgun, is common practice in Taiwan, according to Andy Ellis. I would imagine, depending on how one defines terms, there is precedent for just about everything in TCM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2002 Report Share Posted February 18, 2002 , " 1 " <@i...> wrote: > And the combination of whole formulas, even if I consider it shotgun, is common practice in Taiwan, according to Andy Ellis. I would imagine, depending on how one defines terms, there is precedent for just about everything in TCM. Isn't the precedent simply the organization of the formula itself? Aren't the two formulas together being combined, in one sense, to be one larger formula? If you have King and Minister herbs for the primary and supporting herbs, why not use an entire other formula for side effects? I think the confusion comes from giving it at a separate time, rather than in one batch. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2002 Report Share Posted February 18, 2002 I would imagine, depending on how one defines terms, there is precedent for just about everything in TCM.>>>I think your right about this Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2002 Report Share Posted February 18, 2002 Isn't the precedent simply the organization of the formula itself? Aren't the two formulas together being combined, in one sense, to be one larger formula? >>>>Not in the sense i have seen it used at times. When for example we used to give strong purgatives, at times via gastric tub and then give the patient 6 gents to take to protect the spleen, is I think different. The first formula was prescribed to treat an acute situation knowing very well that it can cause other problems. It was given as a single entity. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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