Guest guest Posted February 16, 2002 Report Share Posted February 16, 2002 While listening to an audio tape of Bob Flaws, he mentioned (kid) yang xu in some cases having a red tongue and face. Heat above, cold below. With a counterflow pulse (?). (correct me if I am wrong)… I have to say, that I am struggling to come up with the pathomechanisms for these (heat signs?). Does anyone have any insight into the pathomechanisms for this phenomenon? I can only think that these signs come from accompanying yin xu that so often comes along with chronic kid yang xu, not from the yang xu itself. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2002 Report Share Posted February 17, 2002 I have to say, that I am struggling to come up with the pathomechanisms for these (heat signs?). Does anyone have any insight into the pathomechanisms for this phenomenon? I can only think th! at these signs come from accompanying yin xu that so often comes along with chronic kid yang xu, not from the yang xu itself. >>>>Jason I think this is actually more common then people think. I have seen such patients and when given ru gui the heat signs and symptoms disappear. ie leading fire back to mingmen Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2002 Report Share Posted February 17, 2002 Jason, In working with a 5'10 " 305 lbs man for weight loss, I found a similar situation. The pt clearly presented signs of Kd yang xu. Deep, slow, tight pulse, loose stools, no thirst, prefers warm drinks, has not had an erection for nearly 3 years, and has cold feeling in the genitalia etc. The pt has also complained of a choronic loud cough with difficult to expetorate sputum, He also had some redness around his cheeks and forehead. However, I was shocked when his tongue had a red body, puffy and moist, with a thick greasy yellow coating mainly on the right side of his tongue. Wow! I thought, now what! Then the remember Zhu Dan-xi's teachings on the six stagnations and things became more clear. In this pt's case, long standing phlegm dampness had turned into phlegm heat. I figured no problem. I'll give him a nice kd/sp yang supplementing rx, and add some cool herbs to deal with the upper burner heat and we'll be on our way. I included Qian hu, huang qin to deal with the upper burner heat but after three weeks of rx, no change. I kept the huang qin but changed the Qian hu to Ban xia and bingo! Things began to change. He still has coating, though not as thick, and the yellow is gone. I've included warm natured foods in his diet and his stool is now formed. The patient is aware that it is going to take some time before we see any weight loss. He is willing to address the internal imbalance to his condition and believes that in time, as his interanal milieu heals, a balanced nutrition and exercise will bring the weight down. I consider myself very fortunate to have a patient willing to give my weight loss protocol the time needed for results. Often this is not the case. Fernando , " " <@o...> wrote: > While listening to an audio tape of Bob Flaws, he mentioned (kid) yang > xu in some cases having a red tongue and face. Heat above, cold below. > With a counterflow pulse (?). (correct me if I am wrong). > I have to say, that I am struggling to come up with the pathomechanisms > for these (heat signs?). Does anyone have any insight into the > pathomechanisms for this phenomenon? I can only think that these signs > come from accompanying yin xu that so often comes along with chronic kid > yang xu, not from the yang xu itself. > > - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2002 Report Share Posted February 18, 2002 Has this person also had a Western medical workup? If so, what did it show? Jim Ramholz , " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote: > Jason, > > In working with a 5'10 " 305 lbs man for weight loss, I found a similar > situation. The pt clearly presented signs of Kd yang xu. Deep, slow, > tight pulse, loose stools, no thirst, prefers warm drinks, has not had > an erection for nearly 3 years, and has cold feeling in the genitalia > etc. The pt has also complained of a choronic loud cough with > difficult to expetorate sputum, He also had some redness around his > cheeks and forehead. However, I was shocked when his tongue had a red > body, puffy and moist, with a thick greasy yellow coating mainly on > the right side of his tongue. Wow! I thought, now what! > > Then the remember Zhu Dan-xi's teachings on the six stagnations and > things became more clear. In this pt's case, long standing phlegm > dampness had turned into phlegm heat. I figured no problem. I'll give > him a nice kd/sp yang supplementing rx, and add some cool herbs to > deal with the upper burner heat and we'll be on our way. I included > Qian hu, huang qin to deal with the upper burner heat but after three > weeks of rx, no change. I kept the huang qin but changed the Qian hu > to Ban xia and bingo! Things began to change. He still has coating, > though not as thick, and the yellow is gone. I've included warm > natured foods in his diet and his stool is now formed. > > The patient is aware that it is going to take some time before we see > any weight loss. He is willing to address the internal imbalance to > his condition and believes that in time, as his interanal milieu > heals, a balanced nutrition and exercise will bring the weight down. > > I consider myself very fortunate to have a patient willing to give my > weight loss protocol the time needed for results. Often this is not > the case. > > Fernando > > > > , " " <@o...> wrote: > > While listening to an audio tape of Bob Flaws, he mentioned (kid) > yang > > xu in some cases having a red tongue and face. Heat above, cold > below. > > With a counterflow pulse (?). (correct me if I am wrong). > > I have to say, that I am struggling to come up with the > pathomechanisms > > for these (heat signs?). Does anyone have any insight into the > > pathomechanisms for this phenomenon? I can only think that these > signs > > come from accompanying yin xu that so often comes along with chronic > kid > > yang xu, not from the yang xu itself. > > > > - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2002 Report Share Posted February 18, 2002 jramholz wrote: > > Has this person also had a Western medical workup? If so, what did > it show? > Jim, Pt had surgery last week for a low abdomen hernia. A week prior to surgery his blood analysis revealed slightly elevated cholesterol levels and an increased concentration of TSH. He also said that his WBC was a little high. I've asked his MD's nurse to fax me a copy of the results. So far no fax. Until I get a copy of the result, I can only suspect that there's a malfunctioning of his thyroid, perhaps a hypo-function and some inflammation. He is currently taking antibiotics and should be back in my office later this week. So far, my experience with MD's cooperation in supplying lab results to those down the *medical food chain* has not been good. Next month here in FL we'll be able to order lab work. I welcome your input on interpreting blood analysis. BTW, prior to surgery, he felt some " life " where " the hundred sinews unite " . Fernando > > , " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote: > > Jason, > > > > In working with a 5'10 " 305 lbs man for weight loss, I found a > similar > > situation. The pt clearly presented signs of Kd yang xu. Deep, > slow, > > tight pulse, loose stools, no thirst, prefers warm drinks, has not > had > > an erection for nearly 3 years, and has cold feeling in the > genitalia > > etc. The pt has also complained of a choronic loud cough with > > difficult to expetorate sputum, He also had some redness around > his > > cheeks and forehead. However, I was shocked when his tongue had a > red > > body, puffy and moist, with a thick greasy yellow coating mainly > on > > the right side of his tongue. Wow! I thought, now what! > > > > Then the remember Zhu Dan-xi's teachings on the six stagnations > and > > things became more clear. In this pt's case, long standing phlegm > > dampness had turned into phlegm heat. I figured no problem. I'll > give > > him a nice kd/sp yang supplementing rx, and add some cool herbs to > > deal with the upper burner heat and we'll be on our way. I > included > > Qian hu, huang qin to deal with the upper burner heat but after > three > > weeks of rx, no change. I kept the huang qin but changed the Qian > hu > > to Ban xia and bingo! Things began to change. He still has > coating, > > though not as thick, and the yellow is gone. I've included warm > > natured foods in his diet and his stool is now formed. > > > > The patient is aware that it is going to take some time before we > see > > any weight loss. He is willing to address the internal imbalance > to > > his condition and believes that in time, as his interanal milieu > > heals, a balanced nutrition and exercise will bring the weight > down. > > > > I consider myself very fortunate to have a patient willing to give > my > > weight loss protocol the time needed for results. Often this is > not > > the case. > > > > Fernando > > > > > > > > , " " <@o...> > wrote: > > > While listening to an audio tape of Bob Flaws, he mentioned > (kid) > > yang > > > xu in some cases having a red tongue and face. Heat above, cold > > below. > > > With a counterflow pulse (?). (correct me if I am wrong). > > > I have to say, that I am struggling to come up with the > > pathomechanisms > > > for these (heat signs?). Does anyone have any insight into the > > > pathomechanisms for this phenomenon? I can only think that > these > > signs > > > come from accompanying yin xu that so often comes along with > chronic > > kid > > > yang xu, not from the yang xu itself. > > > > > > - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2002 Report Share Posted February 18, 2002 and has cold feeling in the genitalia etc >>>>You had a western patient actually describe this? Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2002 Report Share Posted February 18, 2002 So far, my experience with MD's cooperation in supplying lab results tothose down the *medical food chain* has not been good. Next month herein FL we'll be able to order lab work. I welcome your input oninterpreting blood analysis.>>>>I have never had any trouble including having them mailing me complete reports on their findings. Perhaps you should request in writing while at the same time dropping them a note on your findings and thinking. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2002 Report Share Posted February 18, 2002 Fernando: His case sounds like an interesting problem. My only suggestion would be to view and add each Western test result as another type of S/S in a 5-Phase (or TCM) point of view; in order to simply to put as much information together as possible. Never ignore a source of info. With weight problems of this magnitude, I would suspect a combination of problems related to blood sugar control (pancreas is found in the earth pulse); and/or spleen being strongly deficient and stomach tending toward excess to create the problem of hunger without being able to control metabolism; and/or an imbalance between earth and wood (liver metabolizing fat); etc. But you need to verify any suspicions with the pulses or whatever method you work in. I use 5-Phases because in long-term chronic cases diseases are dynamic and the how and why of the organs now relating is often more important that vacuity/repletion consequences. Jim Ramholz , " Fernando Bernall, AP, Dipl.Ac. " <fbernall@a...> wrote: > > > jramholz wrote: > > > > Has this person also had a Western medical workup? If so, what did > > it show? > > > Jim, > > Pt had surgery last week for a low abdomen hernia. A week prior to > surgery his blood analysis revealed slightly elevated cholesterol levels > and an increased concentration of TSH. He also said that his WBC was a > little high. I've asked his MD's nurse to fax me a copy of the results. > So far no fax. Until I get a copy of the result, I can only suspect that > there's a malfunctioning of his thyroid, perhaps a hypo-function and > some inflammation. He is currently taking antibiotics and should be back > in my office later this week. > > So far, my experience with MD's cooperation in supplying lab results to > those down the *medical food chain* has not been good. Next month here > in FL we'll be able to order lab work. I welcome your input on > interpreting blood analysis. > > BTW, prior to surgery, he felt some " life " where " the hundred sinews > unite " . > > Fernando > > > > > > , " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote: > > > Jason, > > > > > > In working with a 5'10 " 305 lbs man for weight loss, I found a > > similar > > > situation. The pt clearly presented signs of Kd yang xu. Deep, > > slow, > > > tight pulse, loose stools, no thirst, prefers warm drinks, has not > > had > > > an erection for nearly 3 years, and has cold feeling in the > > genitalia > > > etc. The pt has also complained of a choronic loud cough with > > > difficult to expetorate sputum, He also had some redness around > > his > > > cheeks and forehead. However, I was shocked when his tongue had a > > red > > > body, puffy and moist, with a thick greasy yellow coating mainly > > on > > > the right side of his tongue. Wow! I thought, now what! > > > > > > Then the remember Zhu Dan-xi's teachings on the six stagnations > > and > > > things became more clear. In this pt's case, long standing phlegm > > > dampness had turned into phlegm heat. I figured no problem. I'll > > give > > > him a nice kd/sp yang supplementing rx, and add some cool herbs to > > > deal with the upper burner heat and we'll be on our way. I > > included > > > Qian hu, huang qin to deal with the upper burner heat but after > > three > > > weeks of rx, no change. I kept the huang qin but changed the Qian > > hu > > > to Ban xia and bingo! Things began to change. He still has > > coating, > > > though not as thick, and the yellow is gone. I've included warm > > > natured foods in his diet and his stool is now formed. > > > > > > The patient is aware that it is going to take some time before we > > see > > > any weight loss. He is willing to address the internal imbalance > > to > > > his condition and believes that in time, as his interanal milieu > > > heals, a balanced nutrition and exercise will bring the weight > > down. > > > > > > I consider myself very fortunate to have a patient willing to give > > my > > > weight loss protocol the time needed for results. Often this is > > not > > > the case. > > > > > > Fernando > > > > > > > > > > > > , " " <@o...> > > wrote: > > > > While listening to an audio tape of Bob Flaws, he mentioned > > (kid) > > > yang > > > > xu in some cases having a red tongue and face. Heat above, cold > > > below. > > > > With a counterflow pulse (?). (correct me if I am wrong). > > > > I have to say, that I am struggling to come up with the > > > pathomechanisms > > > > for these (heat signs?). Does anyone have any insight into the > > > > pathomechanisms for this phenomenon? I can only think that > > these > > > signs > > > > come from accompanying yin xu that so often comes along with > > chronic > > > kid > > > > yang xu, not from the yang xu itself. > > > > > > > > - > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2002 Report Share Posted February 18, 2002 , " Fernando Bernall, AP, Dipl.Ac. " < fbernall@a...> wrote: > > So far, my experience with MD's cooperation in supplying lab results to > those down the *medical food chain* has not been good. I don't what the law in FL is, but in CA, an MD can be fined 1000 dollars per day for withholding medical records that have been requested by another licensee. Call the medical board and make a complaint. A patient of mine had to do this once and the results appeared overnight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2002 Report Share Posted February 18, 2002 Jim, Thanks for the input and indeed this is an interesting case. The patient started gaining weight after a fishing accident nearly 15 years ago. He was in cold water for nearly two hours and almost die. Shortly after, he developed urination problems which his MDs in Germany said was as a result of being in the water too long. In my view, I figured that cold invaded his interior damaging the source qi and the subsequent weight gain. I have not seen the lab work todate but I think that the elevated WBC may be linked to the chronic cough and yellow fur and red tongue. Of course, if white fur is like a labcoat, then red must be like blood and this is not the case with him. Thanks again and will keep you posted. Fernando , " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote: > Fernando: > > His case sounds like an interesting problem. My only suggestion > would be to view and add each Western test result as another type of > S/S in a 5-Phase (or TCM) point of view; in order to simply to put > as much information together as possible. Never ignore a source of > info. > > With weight problems of this magnitude, I would suspect a > combination of problems related to blood sugar control (pancreas is > found in the earth pulse); and/or spleen being strongly deficient > and stomach tending toward excess to create the problem of hunger > without being able to control metabolism; and/or an imbalance > between earth and wood (liver metabolizing fat); etc. > > But you need to verify any suspicions with the pulses or whatever > method you work in. I use 5-Phases because in long-term chronic > cases diseases are dynamic and the how and why of the organs now > relating is often more important that vacuity/repletion consequences. > > Jim Ramholz > > > > , " Fernando Bernall, AP, Dipl.Ac. " > <fbernall@a...> wrote: > > > > > > jramholz wrote: > > > > > > Has this person also had a Western medical workup? If so, what > did > > > it show? > > > > > Jim, > > > > Pt had surgery last week for a low abdomen hernia. A week prior to > > surgery his blood analysis revealed slightly elevated cholesterol > levels > > and an increased concentration of TSH. He also said that his WBC > was a > > little high. I've asked his MD's nurse to fax me a copy of the > results. > > So far no fax. Until I get a copy of the result, I can only > suspect that > > there's a malfunctioning of his thyroid, perhaps a hypo-function > and > > some inflammation. He is currently taking antibiotics and should > be back > > in my office later this week. > > > > So far, my experience with MD's cooperation in supplying lab > results to > > those down the *medical food chain* has not been good. Next month > here > > in FL we'll be able to order lab work. I welcome your input on > > interpreting blood analysis. > > > > BTW, prior to surgery, he felt some " life " where " the hundred > sinews > > unite " . > > > > Fernando > > > > > > > > > > , " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote: > > > > Jason, > > > > > > > > In working with a 5'10 " 305 lbs man for weight loss, I found a > > > similar > > > > situation. The pt clearly presented signs of Kd yang xu. Deep, > > > slow, > > > > tight pulse, loose stools, no thirst, prefers warm drinks, has > not > > > had > > > > an erection for nearly 3 years, and has cold feeling in the > > > genitalia > > > > etc. The pt has also complained of a choronic loud cough with > > > > difficult to expetorate sputum, He also had some redness around > > > his > > > > cheeks and forehead. However, I was shocked when his tongue > had a > > > red > > > > body, puffy and moist, with a thick greasy yellow coating > mainly > > > on > > > > the right side of his tongue. Wow! I thought, now what! > > > > > > > > Then the remember Zhu Dan-xi's teachings on the six stagnations > > > and > > > > things became more clear. In this pt's case, long standing > phlegm > > > > dampness had turned into phlegm heat. I figured no problem. > I'll > > > give > > > > him a nice kd/sp yang supplementing rx, and add some cool > herbs to > > > > deal with the upper burner heat and we'll be on our way. I > > > included > > > > Qian hu, huang qin to deal with the upper burner heat but after > > > three > > > > weeks of rx, no change. I kept the huang qin but changed the > Qian > > > hu > > > > to Ban xia and bingo! Things began to change. He still has > > > coating, > > > > though not as thick, and the yellow is gone. I've included warm > > > > natured foods in his diet and his stool is now formed. > > > > > > > > The patient is aware that it is going to take some time before > we > > > see > > > > any weight loss. He is willing to address the internal > imbalance > > > to > > > > his condition and believes that in time, as his interanal > milieu > > > > heals, a balanced nutrition and exercise will bring the weight > > > down. > > > > > > > > I consider myself very fortunate to have a patient willing to > give > > > my > > > > weight loss protocol the time needed for results. Often this is > > > not > > > > the case. > > > > > > > > Fernando > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " " <@o...> > > > wrote: > > > > > While listening to an audio tape of Bob Flaws, he mentioned > > > (kid) > > > > yang > > > > > xu in some cases having a red tongue and face. Heat above, > cold > > > > below. > > > > > With a counterflow pulse (?). (correct me if I am wrong). > > > > > I have to say, that I am struggling to come up with the > > > > pathomechanisms > > > > > for these (heat signs?). Does anyone have any insight into > the > > > > > pathomechanisms for this phenomenon? I can only think that > > > these > > > > signs > > > > > come from accompanying yin xu that so often comes along with > > > chronic > > > > kid > > > > > yang xu, not from the yang xu itself. > > > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2002 Report Share Posted February 18, 2002 , " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > and has cold feeling in the genitalia > etc > >>>>You had a western patient actually describe this? > Alon, Actually, I've had a number of male western patients admit to this after inquiring. No one has volunteered the info unless I asked. I find it interesting that this condition is not limited to older men. I've found men in their 30's with such cold sensation. Of course, I only ask when pertinent to the chief complaint. Fernando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2002 Report Share Posted February 18, 2002 I've had the same experience --- you have to ask. Ditto for cold noses. Mark - " fbernall " <fbernall Monday, February 18, 2002 12:14 PM Re: yang xu > , " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> > wrote: > > and has cold feeling in the genitalia > > etc > > >>>>You had a western patient actually describe this? > > Alon, > > Actually, I've had a number of male western patients admit to this > after inquiring. No one has volunteered the info unless I asked. I > find it interesting that this condition is not limited to older men. > I've found men in their 30's with such cold sensation. Of course, I > only ask when pertinent to the chief complaint. > > Fernando > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2002 Report Share Posted February 18, 2002 I find it interesting that this condition is not limited to older men. I've found men in their 30's with such cold sensation. >>>I have only heard this as part of feeling cold in general. I have had a patient tell me that his balls feel cold and contract. But when i inquire he said he was feeling cold all over Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 18, 2002 Report Share Posted February 18, 2002 Ditto for cold noses. >>>Thats very common Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2002 Report Share Posted February 19, 2002 , " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote: > > Then the remember Zhu Dan-xi's teachings on the six stagnations and > things became more clear. In this pt's case, long standing phlegm > dampness had turned into phlegm heat. while yang xu is present in this case, the heat is due to phlegm heat. these are not mutually exclusive. I am not sure what tape Jason is referring to, but I think he means when this tongue appears in the absence of any heat pathogens or yin xu. how is that possible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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