Guest guest Posted February 17, 2002 Report Share Posted February 17, 2002 I saw 2 patients the patients the other day for hep C. Both have cirrhosis. The remarkable thing was their tongues. they were virtually identical. both dark purple with deep fissures and no coat. some stark confirmation that chronic illness leads to yin xu and blood stasis. Both patients had other stasis signs, such as widespread spider veins, as well. However, neither had pronounced yin xu signs besides the tongue. In fact the pulses were weak, slippery and fast, suggesting that dampheat may still be at work eating away the yin. The patients actually both had some yang xu signs in the form of low sex drive, low back pain, urinary disturbances, weak right chi positions, cold intolerance. I find yin xu rarely by itself in my patients. So this is not unusual. Most of my menopausal patients present as yin and yang xu, for example, being cold when not having hot flashes, often with incontinence, too. -- , FAX: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2002 Report Share Posted February 17, 2002 I saw that same tongue today (purple, fissured, no coat) in an older man with cardiac amyloidosis with congestive heart failure. He has ascites, and he has purple spots and splotches over his lower extremities, but I think that is because of the blood thinning medication. Could the medication also account for the purple tongue? I also noticed almost blackish purple spots in the center of the tongue. His pulse was slippery. Does anyone have experience in this kind of case? There is lots of dampness and shortness of breath of a heart yang deficiency type. Julie - cha Sunday, February 17, 2002 11:45 AM hep C tongues I saw 2 patients the patients the other day for hep C. Both have cirrhosis. The remarkable thing was their tongues. they were virtually identical. both dark purple with deep fissures and no coat. some stark confirmation that chronic illness leads to yin xu and blood stasis. Both patients had other stasis signs, such as widespread spider veins, as well. However, neither had pronounced yin xu signs besides the tongue. In fact the pulses were weak, slippery and fast, suggesting that dampheat may still be at work eating away the yin. The patients actually both had some yang xu signs in the form of low sex drive, low back pain, urinary disturbances, weak right chi positions, cold intolerance. I find yin xu rarely by itself in my patients. So this is not unusual. Most of my menopausal patients present as yin and yang xu, for example, being cold when not having hot flashes, often with incontinence, too. -- Chinese Herbs FAX: Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2002 Report Share Posted February 17, 2002 In fact the pulses were weak, slippery and fast >>>You can have a slippery pulse in yin def Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 17, 2002 Report Share Posted February 17, 2002 , Julie Chambers <info@j...> wrote: > I saw that same tongue today (purple, fissured, no coat) in an older man with cardiac amyloidosis with congestive heart failure. well, such a condition, I would aslo suspect blood stasis. in my cases.one patient was not on any meds. the other was using diuretics for an unrelated heart problem, so that is probably a factor. I would expect the tongue of your patient to be pale, enlarge, but the meds probably have induced yin xu. I imagine he is taking diuretics. He has ascites, and he has purple spots and splotches over his lower extremities, but I think that is because of the blood thinning medication. yeah, this may be more of a bleeding disorder. I guess it depends on whether the spots came before or after starting blood thinners. Could the medication also account for the purple tongue? blood thinners should relieve blood stasis, but in a dangerous fashion, so I do not think they cause purple tongues. the heart is definitely impaired in its ability to pump blood in the disease. His pulse was slippery. probably due to water accumulation Does anyone have experience in this kind of case? whatever the signs and symptoms point to is the dx. it doesn't matter if drugs casued the signs. that just means the drugs casued the pattern that are indicated by the signs. but if the patient will continue with the drugs, then just consider it as an etiological factor. also, if the dx is blood stasis, you can't really use herbs due to interaction with blood thinners. so many herbs interact with these drugs, I usually don't treat patients with herbs if they take them. for example, both ginseng and garlic can potentiate heparin to induce severe bleeding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2002 Report Share Posted February 19, 2002 I assumed dampheat was the cause and this was what burned the yin, so the pulse remained slippery. Are you suggesting slippery pulse can actually point to yin xu? how? what is the source for this opinion? I can se a relationship between slippery pulse and yin xu, but it always points to something else being present, IMO.>>>>Agreed I was saying it does not exclude it Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2002 Report Share Posted February 19, 2002 , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > In fact the pulses were weak, slippery and fast > >>>You can have a slippery pulse in yin def > Alon I assumed dampheat was the cause and this was what burned the yin, so the pulse remained slippery. Are you suggesting slippery pulse can actually point to yin xu? how? what is the source for this opinion? I can se a relationship between slippery pulse and yin xu, but it always points to something else being present, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2002 Report Share Posted February 19, 2002 , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: I can se a relationship between slippery pulse and yin xu, but it > always points to something else being present, IMO. > >>>>Agreed I was saying it does not exclude it definitely true? all you need to make a dx is a preponderance of signs and symptoms, not EVERY sign and symptom. this is also the reason one can make a multipattern dx even though tongue and pulse point only one way. there may be enough other symptoms to make other pattern dx without confirming tongue and pulse signs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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