Guest guest Posted February 19, 2002 Report Share Posted February 19, 2002 Alon: Everyone is yang xu; while it is part of the background in these cases, it's not a specific diagnosis or confirmation of cancer. How does it relate specifically to cancer? Jim Ramholz , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > He does teach fingernail diagnosis (using the moons), and yang xu is part of what he feels is a constitutional factor in cancer patients. Again, I haven't used the fingernail method extensively to draw conclusions, but it is quite interesting. > >>>I took all his courses and sow about 20 patients with him at Miriam's clinic, but again unfortunately I was unable to do any meaningful evaluation > Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2002 Report Share Posted February 19, 2002 Bob: Have you, Felt, Deadman, or COMP considered creating a list of books titles ideally applicable to NCCAOM certificate renewal? Practitioners could sign in to a COMP website for a test on a specific title or titles for their renewal CEUs. Or would that be too much like the distance learning already in place? I'm trying to think of a way to tie it more closely to the sale of books. " Buy a book, get a point toward your CEUs! " Jim Ramholz , " pemachophel2001 " <pemachophel2001> wrote: > Jim, > > Interesting idea. However, we already do do this kind of thing, only > we call it a " prepublication sale. " I doubt that there would be enough > " rs " to make it feasible. Ten years ago, the PRC passed a > retroactive copyright law. So someone does own the copyright to this > book. Our experience is that Chinese copyright owners have grossly > inflated ideas about the worth of English language translation rights > of CM books. That's one of the reasons that BPP publishes > premodern books more than 100 years old (they're not protected by > copyright), or new works by Western authors. What I'm getting at is > that, 1) you'd have to buy the translation rights, 2) you'd have to > pay to have the translation done, the text edited and proofread, and > the book designed, and 3) you'd have to pay for the printing cost. > Based on my experience marketing to this niche market, a subscription > deal or prepub sale might cover most of the printing and binding > costs, but wouldn't come near to covering the prepress costs. > > This market is just so damned small. When you then create a book that > is going to appeal to an even more narrowly targeted subset, all > ability to make a profit disappears. Already, BPP owes me tens of > thousands of dollars in back royalties that they cannot afford to > pay and still make books available to this market. I've heard that > Churchill Livingstone is pulling back from this market for this very > reason. It's too small. > > In our experience, there are too many restrictions on and liabilities > with the CM treatment of cancer in too many states for there to be a > viable market for this kind of book. Let's run the numbers. You start > with 10,000 English-reading CM practitioners who buy English language > books. The other 5,000 Asian practitioners tend not to buy English > language books. Then, if you create a really good book, maybe you sell > to 1 in 10 of that 10,000. (If you create a book that all the schools > adopt as a required textbook, ok, that's something different. Then you > may get 10 in 10.) Now figure that only a proportion of practitioners > are going to be willing or even legally able to treat cancer. So now > you're not working with a potential target market of 10,000. I would > say you're probably looking at less than half that number. Now you > sell to 1 in 10 of that lesser number, and you're down into the realm > of only a couple/few hundred books. > > Yes, we now have POD, print on demand capibility. So we can do short > runs much easier than we once could. However, the cost of a book is > not the cost of printing and binding. It's the prepress costs, i.e., > paying people by the hour for hundreds of hours of writing, > translating, editing, proofreading, designing, and then proofreading > again. Now add on the costs of marketing and advertising so that > people now the book is available. A full page color ad in AT costs > $1,000 per month. And don't forget there have to be people who > take the orders, do the accounting, pick, pack, and ship. It's > prepress, marketing, and fulfillment where the real costs are. That's > why a book is typically priced retail at 8-10 times what the book cost > to physically print and bind. > > Then there's the other issue of, Should we make such information > available? I've discussed that other issue in my previous posting to > Z'ev. If the schools offered classes in oncology and held oncological > rotations, we might consider it. Right now, there is no bona fide way > of learning CM oncology in the U.S. (at least none that I know of) > even though a number of Enlgish language books on this subject do > already exist. A three hour class on breast cancer at the Pacific > Symposium is dubious ethically, at least in my mind. > > Bob > > , " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote: > > Bob: > > > > Would you consider a subscription series to offset the initial > > costs? If you get some guarenteed money up front would that help > > make the ROI more attractive? > > > > Jim Ramholz > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In , " pemachophel2001 " A few years ago, I > > looked into the possibility of translating the whole book using > > Nigelspeak. However, there were, as I remember, issues about > > copyright, and, with such a small projected readership, the ROI > > wasn't there to make the project worthwhile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2002 Report Share Posted February 19, 2002 In Sun Bing-yin's work, he claims that yang xu coldness and dampness is the background for the development of cancer toxin in the body, based on his observation of cancer patients. By extension to yin fire theory, the spleen yang xu, buildup of cold and damp results in loss of regulation of the clear yang and turbid yin, leading to accumulation of damp heat, which is an excellent environment for the development of all sorts of autoimmune disease, including cancer. On Tuesday, February 19, 2002, at 10:39 AM, jramholz wrote: > Alon: > > Everyone is yang xu; while it is part of the background in these > cases, it's not a specific diagnosis or confirmation of cancer. How > does it relate specifically to cancer? > > Jim Ramholz , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> > wrote: > > He does teach fingernail diagnosis (using the moons), and yang xu > is part of what he feels is a constitutional factor in cancer > patients. Again, I haven't used the fingernail method extensively to > draw conclusions, but it is quite interesting. > > >>>I took all his courses and sow about 20 patients with him at > Miriam's clinic, but again unfortunately I was unable to do any > meaningful evaluation > > Alon > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2002 Report Share Posted February 19, 2002 So, how could/should schools establish some guidelines for what new graduates are qualified to treat? I'm assuming that this would have to be on a school by school basis, since curricula differ somewhat school to school. In your opinion, what would you say your school's graduates are trained to treat when they graduate? Would you be willing to write a list just for those of us on this list to debate and discuss? What would be the fall-out, political, financial, and otherwise, of a school publishing such a list of diseases their graduates were, in their opinion, competent to treat? That list would be in their catalog and maybe on their Website. It might or might not be included in advertising and promotions. I think it could be a really grown-up, very ethical, very innovative thing to do. Besides publishing such a list, students could then be tested prior to graduation to insure that they were, in fact, competent as advertised and certified by diploma. This would take a lot of the ambiguity and subjectivity out of our training. I would also think that schools would constantly be upgrading their curriculum in order to advertise that their graduates could treat more and more diseases, and especially more diseases than graduates of their competitor schools. It occurs to me that this could actually be greatly to the schools' benefit. They could then teach postgraduate courses in the areas not covered by their undergraduate curriculum. The marketing incentive would be immediate and overt. The need for further training would be much more apparent and immediate than some fuzzy concept of the doctoral degree. Bob , " 1 " <@i...> wrote: > , " pemachophel2001 " < > pemachophel2001> wrote: > > > > One of the things I would like to see addressed by the schools is a > > statement about the scope of competence in terms of diseases of new > > graduates. ... it is my > > experience that recent graduates assume they can and should attempt to > > treat anything and everything > > this is a big problem, IMO. I always advise people against doing > obstetrics upon graduation. we have no specialized training in this > and they will get no clinical expereince in this area. > > The same goes for a number of very > > serious, very difficult to treat conditions which, in China, tend to > > be reserved for the " old Chinese doctors, " and I mean this term both > > literally and figuratively as a title of rank. > > as for cancer, we always get a small number of patients in the school > clinic who refuse modern treatment, thus we end up treating them. One > case that came across my desk recently was a woman who should have had > a lumpectomy 2 years ago. Upon the advice of a quack, she went on a > raw food diet, refused all modern treatment and used inadequate amounts > of herbs prescribed by someone with no formal training in either > herbology or cancer. now she has terminal liver metastases. > > > > Because we treat primarily on the basis of pattern, perhaps there > > is not as much disease specific information to know as in WM. > > whether we need to know TCM disease specific info may be debated, but > if you are unfamiliar with the course and prognosis of cancer from a > modern perspective and how it can be successfully treted with > integrative medicine, then you have no right to be treating it. > claiming success with raw food diet has no evidence to support this, > nor does macrobiotics. medicine needs to be evidence based, not based > upon appealing, romantic ideas like if we all ate as god intended in > the garden of eden, we would have no disease. that attitude has > sickened more people than I can count. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2002 Report Share Posted February 19, 2002 If you understand what Sun is saying in Chinese, then it is incorrect to say that all or most cancer patients are clinically yang vacuous. Remember that Sun uses the term " yang qi vacuity. " What I think is more real is that the overwhelming majority of patients with cancer do have a spleen qi vacuity if not a spleen and/or kidney yang vacuity. The term yang qi is compound term. In Sun's writing, I would say it means yang and/or qi, remembering that yang is just enough qi in one place to feel its warmth and that there is a continuum between qi and yang. In other words, I think Sun's term, yang qi, is not a single thing but allows for a breadth of interpretation that covers a lot of clinical ground. Although there are pediatric cancers, I think there is some validity in saying that, by and large, cancer is a disease of aging. According to Yan De-xin, aging is initiated by any of an accumulating number of externally contracted and internally engendered damages resulting in depression in the CM technical sense of that term. Thus the qi mechanism does not flow freely and smoothly. This sets up a basic wood-earth disharmony which sets the stage for the disease mechanisms of the majority of cancers according to Sun. By wood-earth disharmony, I mean liver depression qi stagnation with spleen qi vacuity. It is this initial spleen vacuity in middle age that then leads over time to the kidney vacuity that most CM practitioners associate with aging in the elderly. Because of spleen vacuity, there is the engenderment of dampness. Due to Liu Wan-su's theory of similar transformation, this transforms damp heat. It is also possible for liver depression to transform depressive heat. If either of these two heats brew over a long period of time, they may transform heat toxins. When these types of heat evils are associated with spleen vacuity, we can talk about Li Dong-yuan's yin fire. In this case, there may be a simple spleen qi vacuity, or spleen vacuity may have reached the kidneys, resulting in spleen (qi)-kidney yang vacuity. Nevertheless, there are heat evils and a tendency to dampness, phlegm, and turbidity. If there is a diagnosis of cancer, then Su would say there are toxins present as well. Further, because of qi stagnation, dampness, and phlegm, there is also the tendency to the engenderment of blood stasis. In addition, qi stagnation, blood stasis, dampness and phlegm inhibit the free flow of the qi mechanism all the more, creating a self-perpetuating loop that continually reinforces itself. In actuality, this is not a bad theory. It helps explain why cancer in WM is treated by chemotherapy and radiation which are both hot therapies from the CM point of view. Most chemotherapeutic agents with which I am aware produce hot or warm adverse reactions, damaging the qi and consuming yin (remembering that heat not only damages yin but " eats the qi " ). Sun's theory and practice is really quite special. It has been a large influence on my own thought and practice. He takes Li's Yuan dynasty yin fire theory and makes it extremely understandable in terms of very " modern " diseases. Bob , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > In Sun Bing-yin's work, he claims that yang xu coldness and dampness is > the background for the development of cancer toxin in the body, based on > his observation of cancer patients. > > By extension to yin fire theory, the spleen yang xu, buildup of cold and > damp results in loss of regulation of the clear yang and turbid yin, > leading to accumulation of damp heat, which is an excellent environment > for the development of all sorts of autoimmune disease, including cancer. > > > > > On Tuesday, February 19, 2002, at 10:39 AM, jramholz wrote: > > > Alon: > > > > Everyone is yang xu; while it is part of the background in these > > cases, it's not a specific diagnosis or confirmation of cancer. How > > does it relate specifically to cancer? > > > > Jim Ramholz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus@w...> > > wrote: > > > He does teach fingernail diagnosis (using the moons), and yang xu > > is part of what he feels is a constitutional factor in cancer > > patients. Again, I haven't used the fingernail method extensively to > > draw conclusions, but it is quite interesting. > > > >>>I took all his courses and sow about 20 patients with him at > > Miriam's clinic, but again unfortunately I was unable to do any > > meaningful evaluation > > > Alon > > > > > > > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > > education. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2002 Report Share Posted February 19, 2002 Jim, One of the ways a book becomes a commercial success in this market is by becoming one of the recommended texts for one of the NCCAOM exams. However, in order for a book to be listed as a recommended text, an examination question writer must base an exam question on a specific book. Until or unless an examine writer uses a title as a source for examination questions and answers, a book cannot show up on that list. Unfortunately, this is a chicken and egg situation. Because many of the exam writers are older practitioners who may not have kept up with the literature, they tend to stick to the old " war horses " of our profession, i.e., CAM, Maciocia, etc. Other exam wirters are Asian immigrants who are also, for a different set of reasons, not well versed in the English language literature. To make matters worse, some authors of books on the NCCAOM list have, in the past, been NCCAOM commissioners -- a clear conflict of interest from my point of view -- and these individuals have played what I take for a partisan game in working to keep the exams keyed to the terminology they have used in their books. To make matters more difficult for book publishers such as Paradigm and Blue Poppy, the schools tend to use only those textbooks on the examination reading lists. So this creates a hard to change loop. The schools only use certain texts because those are the texts the examinations are created from. Then the graduates of these schools who go on to eventually become exam question writers base their questions on the textbooks they used in school. So the process is self-reinforcing and not so readily evolving. As the NCCAOM people say, their exams only test the current state of the art of the profession. However, because the profession's education is keyed to these exams, these exams do very much shape and drive (or hinder) the development of the profession they seek to test. This has been a problem that Bob Felt and I have been wrestling with for years. It would be great if more people really understood some of the dynamics of these things. Bob , " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote: > Bob: > > Have you, Felt, Deadman, or COMP considered creating a list of books > titles ideally applicable to NCCAOM certificate renewal? > Practitioners could sign in to a COMP website for a test on a > specific title or titles for their renewal CEUs. Or would that be > too much like the distance learning already in place? I'm trying to > think of a way to tie it more closely to the sale of books. " Buy a > book, get a point toward your CEUs! " > > Jim Ramholz > > , " pemachophel2001 " > <pemachophel2001> wrote: > > Jim, > > > > Interesting idea. However, we already do do this kind of thing, > only > > we call it a " prepublication sale. " I doubt that there would be > enough > > " rs " to make it feasible. Ten years ago, the PRC passed a > > retroactive copyright law. So someone does own the copyright to > this > > book. Our experience is that Chinese copyright owners have grossly > > inflated ideas about the worth of English language translation > rights > > of CM books. That's one of the reasons that BPP publishes > > premodern books more than 100 years old (they're not protected by > > copyright), or new works by Western authors. What I'm getting at > is > > that, 1) you'd have to buy the translation rights, 2) you'd have > to > > pay to have the translation done, the text edited and proofread, > and > > the book designed, and 3) you'd have to pay for the printing cost. > > Based on my experience marketing to this niche market, a > subscription > > deal or prepub sale might cover most of the printing and binding > > costs, but wouldn't come near to covering the prepress costs. > > > > This market is just so damned small. When you then create a book > that > > is going to appeal to an even more narrowly targeted subset, all > > ability to make a profit disappears. Already, BPP owes me tens of > > thousands of dollars in back royalties that they cannot afford to > > pay and still make books available to this market. I've heard that > > Churchill Livingstone is pulling back from this market for this > very > > reason. It's too small. > > > > In our experience, there are too many restrictions on and > liabilities > > with the CM treatment of cancer in too many states for there to be > a > > viable market for this kind of book. Let's run the numbers. You > start > > with 10,000 English-reading CM practitioners who buy English > language > > books. The other 5,000 Asian practitioners tend not to buy English > > language books. Then, if you create a really good book, maybe you > sell > > to 1 in 10 of that 10,000. (If you create a book that all the > schools > > adopt as a required textbook, ok, that's something different. Then > you > > may get 10 in 10.) Now figure that only a proportion of > practitioners > > are going to be willing or even legally able to treat cancer. So > now > > you're not working with a potential target market of 10,000. I > would > > say you're probably looking at less than half that number. Now you > > sell to 1 in 10 of that lesser number, and you're down into the > realm > > of only a couple/few hundred books. > > > > Yes, we now have POD, print on demand capibility. So we can do > short > > runs much easier than we once could. However, the cost of a book > is > > not the cost of printing and binding. It's the prepress costs, > i.e., > > paying people by the hour for hundreds of hours of writing, > > translating, editing, proofreading, designing, and then > proofreading > > again. Now add on the costs of marketing and advertising so that > > people now the book is available. A full page color ad in AT costs > > $1,000 per month. And don't forget there have to be people who > > take the orders, do the accounting, pick, pack, and ship. It's > > prepress, marketing, and fulfillment where the real costs are. > That's > > why a book is typically priced retail at 8-10 times what the book > cost > > to physically print and bind. > > > > Then there's the other issue of, Should we make such information > > available? I've discussed that other issue in my previous posting > to > > Z'ev. If the schools offered classes in oncology and held > oncological > > rotations, we might consider it. Right now, there is no bona fide > way > > of learning CM oncology in the U.S. (at least none that I know of) > > even though a number of Enlgish language books on this subject do > > already exist. A three hour class on breast cancer at the Pacific > > Symposium is dubious ethically, at least in my mind. > > > > Bob > > > > , " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote: > > > Bob: > > > > > > Would you consider a subscription series to offset the initial > > > costs? If you get some guarenteed money up front would that help > > > make the ROI more attractive? > > > > > > Jim Ramholz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- In , " pemachophel2001 " A few years > ago, I > > > looked into the possibility of translating the whole book using > > > Nigelspeak. However, there were, as I remember, issues about > > > copyright, and, with such a small projected readership, the ROI > > > wasn't there to make the project worthwhile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2002 Report Share Posted February 19, 2002 Everyone is yang xu; while it is part of the background in these cases, it's not a specific diagnosis or confirmation of cancer. How does it relate specifically to cancer >>>>I was just relating what I have seen being with the cancer specialist in Miriam's clinic. Personally when I start seeing these types of generalizations I have trouble with them. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2002 Report Share Posted February 19, 2002 no doubt, but given the small size of her lump upon initial dx, she was in the group who typically have ten year survival or longer. >>>Its much more about cell type than size. Remember cancer is a systemic disease. The data is confusing especially now that they are including carcinoma in situ in their statistics. Personally I would probably have the surgery. But it is still a judgment call Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2002 Report Share Posted February 19, 2002 It occurs to me that this could actually be greatly to the schools' benefit. >>>Yes the schools and their subsidiaries Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2002 Report Share Posted February 20, 2002 , " 1 " <@i...> wrote: It may be coincidence, but patients who refuse > such treatment generally seem to fare far worse than those who go under the knife. All, I have been to a great degree influenced by the medical work of Professor Cheng Man Ching and would like to include on this post a quote from Mark Hennessy's book, " Cheng Man-ch'ing, Master of Five Excellences " on Professor's view on cancer and the knife: " In dealing with cancer I use an internist's approach. Cancer arises from suppression so I prescribe herbs that relax the contained ch'i and allow the energy to scatter and disperse, stopping the illness's advance. Failing to advance, it recedes naturally. There is an old saying, " When you view the strange as if it were normal, its peculiarities naturally break down. " " I have cured many patients regardless of their condition, and all that I require is trust. I do not approve of radiation or chemotherapy " . " I have seen too many treated with far too few results. Marry surgeons even undertake exploratory surgery to analyze the condition! But metal instruments should never touch cancer cells. For thousands of years Chinese medicine has recorded illnesses that should not contact metal objects and that worsen once the body is cut. These include lymphadentitis, phlegmal lumps, internal ulcers and their accompanying ulcers, bone ulcers, cancer, " fisheye " boils, carbuncle boils and othersnone should contact metallic instruments. These diseases are clearly documented and I mention them only for reference " . What do you think? Fernando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2002 Report Share Posted February 20, 2002 Fernando: His brief description follows general theory. When either needling or using herbs, we need to use the different energy depths as discussed in the Shan Han Lun. In general, we need to disperse the energy level above the cancer and tonify the energy level below the cancer. For example, a 71-year old woman that I'm working with now has colon cancer that has metastasize to her liver. Chemo and surgery did not help her. In her case, the metastasis followed the Control (ke) cycle in 5- Phases, going from yang ming (colon) to tzu yin (liver). A problem not only because of the spreading, but because it also goes deeper. So in needling, we need to sedate the cancer movement in the liver at the tzu yin depth, bring it back to the colon yang ming depth, and then bring it up and disperse it at the tai yang depth. Then tonify her vital energy (kidney) and immune function (spleen and lung). So we need to consider both 5-Phases and 6-Qi when needling in order to help focus her physical and energetic resources. Jim Ramholz , " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote: > All, > > I have been to a great degree influenced by the medical work of > Professor Cheng Man Ching and would like to include on this post a > quote from Mark Hennessy's book, " Cheng Man-ch'ing, Master of Five > Excellences " on Professor's view on cancer and the knife: > > " In dealing with cancer I use an internist's approach. Cancer arises > from suppression so I prescribe herbs that relax the contained ch'i > and allow the energy to scatter and disperse, stopping the illness's > advance. Failing to advance, it recedes naturally. There is an old > saying, " When you view the strange as if it were normal, its > peculiarities naturally break down. " " I have cured many patients > regardless of their condition, and all that I require is trust. I do > not approve of radiation or chemotherapy " . > > " I have seen too many treated with far too few results. Marry surgeons > even undertake exploratory surgery to analyze the condition! But metal > instruments should never touch cancer cells. For thousands of years > Chinese medicine has recorded illnesses that should not contact metal > objects and that worsen once the body is cut. These include > lymphadentitis, phlegmal lumps, internal ulcers and their accompanying > ulcers, bone ulcers, cancer, " fisheye " boils, carbuncle boils and > othersnone should contact metallic instruments. These diseases are > clearly documented and I mention them only for reference " . > > What do you think? > > Fernando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2002 Report Share Posted February 20, 2002 , " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote: > > What do you think? more words. no evidence. doesn't match the modern research or my personal experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2002 Report Share Posted February 20, 2002 Todd: Can you briefly summarize the modern research? Jim Ramholz , " 1 " <@i...> wrote: > , " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote: > > > > > What do you think? > > more words. no evidence. doesn't match the modern research or my > personal experience. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2002 Report Share Posted February 20, 2002 Jim, My father died of metastatic colon cancer that went to his liver and I've had my first colonoscopy. Your discussion scares the bee-jeezus out of me. It's not just what you're saying but the naivete that seems to inform your tone. Your patient is probably as good as dead in terms of prognosis and you are airely talking about five phase acupuncture. For me, this underscores the importance of the issue of scope of practice. Bob , " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote: > Fernando: > > His brief description follows general theory. When either needling > or using herbs, we need to use the different energy depths as > discussed in the Shan Han Lun. In general, we need to disperse the > energy level above the cancer and tonify the energy level below the > cancer. For example, a 71-year old woman that I'm working with now > has colon cancer that has metastasize to her liver. Chemo and > surgery did not help her. > > In her case, the metastasis followed the Control (ke) cycle in 5- > Phases, going from yang ming (colon) to tzu yin (liver). A problem > not only because of the spreading, but because it also goes deeper. > So in needling, we need to sedate the cancer movement in the liver > at the tzu yin depth, bring it back to the colon yang ming depth, > and then bring it up and disperse it at the tai yang depth. Then > tonify her vital energy (kidney) and immune function (spleen and > lung). So we need to consider both 5-Phases and 6-Qi when needling > in order to help focus her physical and energetic resources. > > Jim Ramholz > > > > > , " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote: > > All, > > > > I have been to a great degree influenced by the medical work of > > Professor Cheng Man Ching and would like to include on this post a > > quote from Mark Hennessy's book, " Cheng Man-ch'ing, Master of Five > > Excellences " on Professor's view on cancer and the knife: > > > > " In dealing with cancer I use an internist's approach. Cancer > arises > > from suppression so I prescribe herbs that relax the contained > ch'i > > and allow the energy to scatter and disperse, stopping the > illness's > > advance. Failing to advance, it recedes naturally. There is an old > > saying, " When you view the strange as if it were normal, its > > peculiarities naturally break down. " " I have cured many patients > > regardless of their condition, and all that I require is trust. I > do > > not approve of radiation or chemotherapy " . > > > > " I have seen too many treated with far too few results. Marry > surgeons > > even undertake exploratory surgery to analyze the condition! But > metal > > instruments should never touch cancer cells. For thousands of > years > > Chinese medicine has recorded illnesses that should not contact > metal > > objects and that worsen once the body is cut. These include > > lymphadentitis, phlegmal lumps, internal ulcers and their > accompanying > > ulcers, bone ulcers, cancer, " fisheye " boils, carbuncle boils and > > othersnone should contact metallic instruments. These diseases are > > clearly documented and I mention them only for reference " . > > > > What do you think? > > > > Fernando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2002 Report Share Posted February 20, 2002 more words. no evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2002 Report Share Posted February 20, 2002 , " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> wrote: > more words. no evidence. Point well taken. However, do you have any evidence to the contrary? Fernando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2002 Report Share Posted February 20, 2002 Bob: I can appreciate your fear considering your family and personal circumstances; but I take exception to your condescension about " my tone " simply because I don't work the way you do and you don't seem to understand this train of thought. Although she feels she has exhausted all avenues, her MD is still her primary physician---and I always work to support the primary physician. I would have expected that you had a more generous spirit even toward impossible cases. I have no illusion about her prognosis; the goal is to support her and make her more comfortable until that time. Jim Ramholz , " pemachophel2001 " <pemachophel2001> wrote: > Jim, > > My father died of metastatic colon cancer that went to his liver and > I've had my first colonoscopy. Your discussion scares the bee- jeezus > out of me. It's not just what you're saying but the naivete that seems > to inform your tone. Your patient is probably as good as dead in terms > of prognosis and you are airely talking about five phase acupuncture. > For me, this underscores the importance of the issue of scope of > practice. > > Bob > > > , " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote: > > Fernando: > > > > His brief description follows general theory. When either needling > > or using herbs, we need to use the different energy depths as > > discussed in the Shan Han Lun. In general, we need to disperse the > > energy level above the cancer and tonify the energy level below the > > cancer. For example, a 71-year old woman that I'm working with now > > has colon cancer that has metastasize to her liver. Chemo and > > surgery did not help her. > > > > In her case, the metastasis followed the Control (ke) cycle in 5- > > Phases, going from yang ming (colon) to tzu yin (liver). A problem > > not only because of the spreading, but because it also goes deeper. > > So in needling, we need to sedate the cancer movement in the liver > > at the tzu yin depth, bring it back to the colon yang ming depth, > > and then bring it up and disperse it at the tai yang depth. Then > > tonify her vital energy (kidney) and immune function (spleen and > > lung). So we need to consider both 5-Phases and 6-Qi when needling > > in order to help focus her physical and energetic resources. > > > > Jim Ramholz > > > > > > > > > > , " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote: > > > All, > > > > > > I have been to a great degree influenced by the medical work of > > > Professor Cheng Man Ching and would like to include on this post a > > > quote from Mark Hennessy's book, " Cheng Man-ch'ing, Master of Five > > > Excellences " on Professor's view on cancer and the knife: > > > > > > " In dealing with cancer I use an internist's approach. Cancer > > arises > > > from suppression so I prescribe herbs that relax the contained > > ch'i > > > and allow the energy to scatter and disperse, stopping the > > illness's > > > advance. Failing to advance, it recedes naturally. There is an old > > > saying, " When you view the strange as if it were normal, its > > > peculiarities naturally break down. " " I have cured many patients > > > regardless of their condition, and all that I require is trust. I > > do > > > not approve of radiation or chemotherapy " . > > > > > > " I have seen too many treated with far too few results. Marry > > surgeons > > > even undertake exploratory surgery to analyze the condition! But > > metal > > > instruments should never touch cancer cells. For thousands of > > years > > > Chinese medicine has recorded illnesses that should not contact > > metal > > > objects and that worsen once the body is cut. These include > > > lymphadentitis, phlegmal lumps, internal ulcers and their > > accompanying > > > ulcers, bone ulcers, cancer, " fisheye " boils, carbuncle boils and > > > othersnone should contact metallic instruments. These diseases are > > > clearly documented and I mention them only for reference " . > > > > > > What do you think? > > > > > > Fernando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2002 Report Share Posted February 20, 2002 Fernando, Alon, all, Cancer is a vastly complex subject, and there are many different points of view on its treatment and care. However, the dominant surgery/chemo/radiation approach of biomedicine, enforced by law, insurance media and medical pressure, doesn't really allow for a fair debate or discussion on the topic of what is appropriate treatment and when. While I am impressed with biomedicine's ability to prolong or save life in cancer patients, I am not impressed with quality of life issues or its ability to cure the disease. Trillions of dollars down the tunnel, no cures in sight. I have tremendous respect for Chen Man-qing, and would listen to what he has to say very carefully. He was a great man, and for me, his opinions carry great weight. However, to put his ideas into practice, so that they are more than just his opinions, is a much larger endeavor that is not possible in the present environment. Our first task is to study, translate, and develop the specialty of cancer in Chinese medicine, for now in the preventative and supportive aspects, later in primary treatment. Having said that, I do support biomedical developments and research in such areas as monoclonal antibodies and cancer vaccines, and approaches that enhance immunity. I have read or listened to authorities in Chinese, Tibetan and Homeopathic medicine, as well as biomedical sources on the topic of cancer. Tibetan physicians such as Yeshe Dhonden and homeopathic physicians such as Grimmer and Hering agree that surgery can sometimes spread cancer (I also came across this in a section of Ibn Sina's Canon of Medicine). But this depends on the stage, the patient, and many factors that have to be considered by a practitioner with great experience. The case Todd described, a very early one apparently with a localized tumor, in my opinion would benefit from a lumpectomy. Whether this ultimately would have saved her life, I couldn't say. We all need to do the best we can to help in this epidemic, but we also need to know our limitations. So let's roll up our sleeves and get to work with the tools we have. On Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 07:49 AM, fbernall wrote: > , " 1 " <@i...> wrote: > It may be coincidence, but patients who refuse > > such treatment generally seem to fare far worse than those who go > under the knife. > > All, > > I have been to a great degree influenced by the medical work of > Professor Cheng Man Ching and would like to include on this post a > quote from Mark Hennessy's book, " Cheng Man-ch'ing, Master of Five > Excellences " on Professor's view on cancer and the knife: > > " In dealing with cancer I use an internist's approach. Cancer arises > from suppression so I prescribe herbs that relax the contained ch'i > and allow the energy to scatter and disperse, stopping the illness's > advance. Failing to advance, it recedes naturally. There is an old > saying, " When you view the strange as if it were normal, its > peculiarities naturally break down. " " I have cured many patients > regardless of their condition, and all that I require is trust. I do > not approve of radiation or chemotherapy " . > > " I have seen too many treated with far too few results. Marry surgeons > even undertake exploratory surgery to analyze the condition! But metal > instruments should never touch cancer cells. For thousands of years > Chinese medicine has recorded illnesses that should not contact metal > objects and that worsen once the body is cut. These include > lymphadentitis, phlegmal lumps, internal ulcers and their accompanying > ulcers, bone ulcers, cancer, " fisheye " boils, carbuncle boils and > othersnone should contact metallic instruments. These diseases are > clearly documented and I mention them only for reference " . > > What do you think? > > Fernando > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2002 Report Share Posted February 20, 2002 Words have value, Alon. The evidence? Test the ideas (when possible, of course). On Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 11:01 AM, ALON MARCUS wrote: > more words. no evidence. > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2002 Report Share Posted February 20, 2002 Zev, as long as we clearly understand that they are only words. Agreed. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2002 Report Share Posted February 20, 2002 I have tremendous respect for Chen Man-qing, and would listen to what he has to say very carefully. He was a great man, and for me, his opinions carry great weight. However, to put his ideas into practice, so that they are more than just his opinions, is a much larger endeavor that is not possible in the present environment. Our first task is to study, translate, and develop the specialty of cancer in Chinese medicine, for now in the preventative and supportive aspects, later in primary treatment >>>If I had a skin lesion I would cut it ASAP regardless of any of the oboe positions. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2002 Report Share Posted February 20, 2002 Jim, I have no trouble using the ke cycle to describe the progression of colon to liver cancer. What I question is the seemingly off-hand way you discuss this situation. The bottom-line implication of your posting is that others reading it may want to consider trying this approach to the treatment of this condition. If not, why post it? I, for one, would like to see more meta-discourse on all the other factors involved in this patient's care. For instance, are you saying you are remedially treating the cancer with this acupuncture approach? If so, with what expected outcome based on what treatment regimen over what period of time? If you are not remedially treating the cancer, then what is the intention of the acupuncture and, again, with what expectations as a result of what regime. Further, how many such patients have you treated with this approach and with what outcomes, both short and long-term? Are you using or suggesting any other, adjunctive therapies? If so, what are they and why are you suggesting them? You have asked numerous other people on this list to be more forthcoming with their information. Therefore, I am requesting the same from you in this particular case given the gravity of the topic of discussion. We're talking about a pretty serious situation here, and I don't feel that you've presented your treatment protocol in a very professional manner. I know it is something of a cliche and a canard on this list to criticize each other for unprofessionalism, but, as I mentioned in a response to another posting, who knows who may be reading this discussion? I'd like members of other health care professions stumbling across this list to think that we act in a mature, professional manner, and, in this medium, the only way to convey that impression is to communicate in that way. Again, let me be clear: I am not criticizing your treatment protocol. I am criticizing the way you have presented it to this group and to nayone else who might be " lurking. " Bob P.S. As a fellow Coloradan, I assume you are aware that we do have a Cancer Care Control Act here in Colorado. I was prosecuted under this Act 10 or more years ago. Contravention of the act is like a red flag to a bull in terms of the CMA (Colorado Medical Association). Most of the prosecutions in this state that I know of for practicing medicine without a license have been prompted by the practitioner being popped for treating someone with cancer. The way you presented your protocol might be used as evidence against you in a court of law. , " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote: > Bob: > > I can appreciate your fear considering your family and personal > circumstances; but I take exception to your condescension about " my > tone " simply because I don't work the way you do and you don't seem > to understand this train of thought. Although she feels she has > exhausted all avenues, her MD is still her primary physician---and I > always work to support the primary physician. I would have expected > that you had a more generous spirit even toward impossible cases. I > have no illusion about her prognosis; the goal is to support her and > make her more comfortable until that time. > > > Jim Ramholz > > > > > > , " pemachophel2001 " > <pemachophel2001> wrote: > > Jim, > > > > My father died of metastatic colon cancer that went to his liver > and > > I've had my first colonoscopy. Your discussion scares the bee- > jeezus > > out of me. It's not just what you're saying but the naivete that > seems > > to inform your tone. Your patient is probably as good as dead in > terms > > of prognosis and you are airely talking about five phase > acupuncture. > > For me, this underscores the importance of the issue of scope of > > practice. > > > > Bob > > > > > > , " jramholz " <jramholz> wrote: > > > Fernando: > > > > > > His brief description follows general theory. When either > needling > > > or using herbs, we need to use the different energy depths as > > > discussed in the Shan Han Lun. In general, we need to disperse > the > > > energy level above the cancer and tonify the energy level below > the > > > cancer. For example, a 71-year old woman that I'm working with > now > > > has colon cancer that has metastasize to her liver. Chemo and > > > surgery did not help her. > > > > > > In her case, the metastasis followed the Control (ke) cycle in 5- > > > Phases, going from yang ming (colon) to tzu yin (liver). A > problem > > > not only because of the spreading, but because it also goes > deeper. > > > So in needling, we need to sedate the cancer movement in the > liver > > > at the tzu yin depth, bring it back to the colon yang ming > depth, > > > and then bring it up and disperse it at the tai yang depth. Then > > > tonify her vital energy (kidney) and immune function (spleen and > > > lung). So we need to consider both 5-Phases and 6-Qi when > needling > > > in order to help focus her physical and energetic resources. > > > > > > Jim Ramholz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote: > > > > All, > > > > > > > > I have been to a great degree influenced by the medical work > of > > > > Professor Cheng Man Ching and would like to include on this > post a > > > > quote from Mark Hennessy's book, " Cheng Man-ch'ing, Master of > Five > > > > Excellences " on Professor's view on cancer and the knife: > > > > > > > > " In dealing with cancer I use an internist's approach. Cancer > > > arises > > > > from suppression so I prescribe herbs that relax the contained > > > ch'i > > > > and allow the energy to scatter and disperse, stopping the > > > illness's > > > > advance. Failing to advance, it recedes naturally. There is an > old > > > > saying, " When you view the strange as if it were normal, its > > > > peculiarities naturally break down. " " I have cured many > patients > > > > regardless of their condition, and all that I require is > trust. I > > > do > > > > not approve of radiation or chemotherapy " . > > > > > > > > " I have seen too many treated with far too few results. Marry > > > surgeons > > > > even undertake exploratory surgery to analyze the condition! > But > > > metal > > > > instruments should never touch cancer cells. For thousands of > > > years > > > > Chinese medicine has recorded illnesses that should not > contact > > > metal > > > > objects and that worsen once the body is cut. These include > > > > lymphadentitis, phlegmal lumps, internal ulcers and their > > > accompanying > > > > ulcers, bone ulcers, cancer, " fisheye " boils, carbuncle boils > and > > > > othersnone should contact metallic instruments. These diseases > are > > > > clearly documented and I mention them only for reference " . > > > > > > > > What do you think? > > > > > > > > Fernando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2002 Report Share Posted February 20, 2002 Fernando, What I think Todd was getting at was that Prof. Cheng's method of writing supplied no evidence for his position, at least not the kind of evidence modern professional health care providers typically require. He gave no case histories of real-life patients nor did he report any evidence based on retrospective clinical audits or prospective clinical trials. While Prof. Cheng's style of writing (at least when it comes to making clinical assertions) may have been acceptable among Chinese medical practitioners of an earlier generation, they are no longer deemed professionally adequate. Again, I don't think Tood or I are talking about Prof. Cheng's theory and praxis but rather his manner of discourse. Bob , " fbernall " <fbernall@a...> wrote: > , " ALON MARCUS " <alonmarcus@w...> > wrote: > > more words. no evidence. > > Point well taken. However, do you have any evidence to the contrary? > > Fernando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2002 Report Share Posted February 20, 2002 Oboe positions? Z'ev On Wednesday, February 20, 2002, at 12:47 PM, ALON MARCUS wrote: > I have tremendous respect for Chen Man-qing, and would listen to what > he has to say very carefully. He was a great man, and for me, his > opinions carry great weight. However, to put his ideas into practice, > so that they are more than just his opinions, is a much larger endeavor > that is not possible in the present environment. Our first task is to > study, translate, and develop the specialty of cancer in Chinese > medicine, for now in the preventative and supportive aspects, later in > primary treatment > >>>If I had a skin lesion I would cut it ASAP regardless of any of the > oboe positions. > Alon > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed > healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate > academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety > of professional services, including board approved online continuing > education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2002 Report Share Posted February 20, 2002 Oboe positions?>>>>Sorry Above Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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