RE: tongue dx - Yang xu

[Guest guest]

> I see acute cold-damp and cold-damp bi syndrome, but rarely, if ever,

> see chronic cold damp. Even my yang xu patients often present with

> dampheat pathogens. I guess this comes full circle to Jason's

> question. If the yang is xu, then damp and cold may accumulate

> internally. over time, both these pathogens typically transform to

> heat.

>

 

 

 

Bob, and others,

 

Actually this damp-phlegm concept had little relevance to my

question, I don't know how that got started...? maybe my question was

misunderstood. D-P can obviously turn to heat and produce 'heat signs'

in a yang xu patient.. what I was wondering about was (what I think Bob

was saying) that one may have yang xu , and from this have FLOATING

yang, creating heat signs(red tongue & face, floating pulse(?)) - Heat

above and cold below. I was wondering what the pathomechanism for this

floating yang would be. I can not think of one. In such a situation I

would view it as a mixed yin and yang xu (which is common with chronic

yang xu) and the yin xu causing the heat... therefore I would treat

both.

Heat rising due to Qi xu makes sense - the pathomechanism is

clear, but why would yang rise if it is xu. Of course yang can separate

from yin and produce such signs in critical conditions - false heat, but

in chronic or non-critical problems, why would this occur? Is there a

source on such a phenomenon?

Bob Flaws mentions that looking at the original sighting for jin

gui shen qi wan (in the jin gui) demonstrates such symptoms come from

yang xu. This is problematic for 2 reasons : 1) this rx also treats the

yin, 2) I cannot find such s/s in the original text, could someone point

me in the proper place?

Bensky in discussing the substitution of rou gui for gui zhi in

JGSQW states: " the use of this modification is appropriate in treating

waning fire at the gate of vitality with deficient yang floating upward

characterized by a flushed face, wheezing, severe sweating, weakness and

cold of the lower extremities, and a deficient, rootless pulse. This

condition should be distinguished from the flushed face and kidney

symptoms associated with kidney yin insufficiency... " so... is this

deficient yang floating upwards a false heat? If so, is it a critical

condition as Wiseman and Ellis defines false heat as. If it is not a

critical condition /false heat then what is the pathomechanism and I

would imagine that the tongue is pale, not red. I always felt that the

tongue was pretty decisive in showing the true temperature... this red

tongue is puzzling...

IS Bensky's above description one of chronic or acute nature? - I

get the impression that it is acute therefore false heat/ semi-critical

- Deng also presents a similar description of false heat, which further

supports the idea that the above is acute? Then why would one prescribe

JQSQW if it is acute...

IS any of this more clear?

 

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